Demoulius Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 hello gents, back from a long break and i intend to make a vanguard squad. i looked at their stats and points and thought, only 2 points more expensive for +1 attack and +1 ld? yes please :D and then i saw that they dident come with jumppacks :D how do i make jumppack vanguard viable without paying about 150 for an equal sized squad of normal assault marines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 hello gents, back from a long break and i intend to make a vanguard squad. i looked at their stats and points and thought, only 2 points more expensive for +1 attack and +1 ld? yes please :lol: and then i saw that they dident come with jumppacks :verymad: how do i make jumppack vanguard viable without paying about 150 for an equal sized squad of normal assault marines? They can assault out of deepstrike with 1d6 scatter. That is what JP on vanguard are for, and why you would want to spent points on the packs :D Failing that you could just use them like regular vets in a transport or pod I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2509922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anpu42 Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 You want to keep the Jump Packs Small to keet them "Reasonasbly" Priced. I have an Oppoent who runs one -Sarg: Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Jump Pack -4x Power Sword/Storm Shield/Jump Pack They pack a Wollap and have even chewed thought a 15 Man Blood Claw uinit with a Wolf Priest and Wolf Guard in two Assualt Phases. I think one unit is so worth it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2509972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 Welcome back Dem, Vanguard are indeed worth their points in a BA army, however instead of going into detail here I recomend you use search as this topic comes up often on the boards now days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2509981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted September 12, 2010 Author Share Posted September 12, 2010 thanks for the replies gents :) seems im (as always) not clear on what im trying to ask here. what i mean is: say i want a sledge hammer unit to take care of deamon princes and the like, is there no feasile way to do that without spending a ton of points? are the vanguards worth the extra 12 points for their added benefits? i forget their ability to charge when they arrive but they also lose a good thing normal assault marines have, namely the fact that they are scoring. just how good are these guys? theyre still S4 T4 and if you want to go all the way to add power weapons their pointcost soars even more intensly.... and to go further on the subject: if you add a SP for the FNP and the FC they can no longer use heroic intervention not to mention that the cost of the unit would soar even higher if you did that :blush: not that i dont use SP's anyway but since they cant deploy with him...well im pretty sure you guys can guess what the problem is... so how should i look to use these guys? equipping them for a sledgehammer role makes their pointscost soar skyhigh. even if they only can scatter d6 instead of 2d6 they can still scatter in the wrong direction. if i tool them to kill anything by adding fists, PW's etc i might be better of picking several other units for their points cost that can together achieve the same result... besides we allready got flying PW wielding units, theyre called sanguinary guard (cheaper, get a reroll in combat, can shoot more and even have a 2+ armour save) so yea...im having trouble seeing a roll they can fulfill. or to put it bluntly, see a roll that they can fulfill that no other unit can do better for less points... im purely talking about the JP version here guys. without the added costs for the pack i can see a ton of uses for them ;) the pack just makes them overly expensive imho... i have very bad experience with small sized units so i would never wield a unit smaller then 8 man.. (which is also a part where the costs comes in) and as a small aside also a reason why im overly carefull in trying to use them and sanguinary guard... i know my force should work as a whole since currently im playing without a sledge hammer unit and just keep my army together as a whole is the only way to really do it. i want a squad that can go out and kick my opponents ass whilsts he is safely hiding (or slowly moving out of) his deployment zone. are there any tricks to using heroic intervention? or overlooking some other things? atm all i can see is mucho expensive :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulley Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 These guys can be devasting in combination. Imagine them dropping in first from deep strike - with the invul save in there and the 4 3+'s your more than likely going to tie up a really dangerous unit allowing your other's (like hon guard or sang guard, or more squishy characters) to run around from the deep strike and get stuck in else where. I played 3 games without VV's - trying other stuff before i used these, I won drew and lost - and I think both draw and loss would have been easy wins with the ability to heroic intervention ahead of my command squad with Dante. VV's allow much more aggressive style of play, which, given you want to use FC as much as possible - is great. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgaryBA Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 I forget who on here uses them all the time with storm shields, so give credit to him for the crazy idea of gearing them to the teeth, because normally that gets dismissed as being a waste of points for most units. Anyways, I've made 2 squads of VV since reading how well they've worked for him and I haven't looked back. They are so ridiculously devastating and resilient that I always try and squeeze a squad into my lists now. Give a squad a try in a friendly game using some regular jump assault marines as proxies. Just drop them wherever you want something dead and watch the butchery. They are especially devastating vs other MEQs and make a mockery of support units in your opponents back lines. Just watching your opponent try and figure out how he's going to deal with such a mobile, tough and killy unit is half the fun. The base for a squad of these guys for me now starts out with: all with jump packs Sergeant - storm shield, thunder hammer veteran - storm shield, lightning claw veteran - storm shield, lightning claw veteran - storm shield, lightning claw veteran - power axe, infernus pistol After this i either add 1 or 2 veterans geared with the basics just to take wounds, or another storm shield lightning claw. edit: I know you said you like units to be at least 8+ men strong, but that's just asking for trouble with deep strike mishaps. Keep the squads small and deep strike them smart, and you'll get the charge off almost every time. The storm shields and power weapons on most if not all of the squad make them resilient enough, even with a small squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 well Dem, If you want them for beating down Deamon princes and the like there are probably better tools in the list however where VV's shine is if taken in something like a all JP list being able to drop and assualt on the charge against annoying units like long fangs or Crisis suits is awesome. your right in that they die just as easily as basic marines but I don't think that makes them any less worth while. Finally the beuty of this codex is that there is enough scope that you cna make your choice of units like SG,DC and VV and still end up with a competative army list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 These guys make their points back as a scalpel unit. My favorite tactic is to lure my opponent into engaging a target that has a priest, usually my honour guard, and then using these guys to come in and save the day! I like an 8 man squad with Sergeant: Thunder hammer van1: storm shield van 2: power weapon van3: power weapon van4: power weapon van5-7: standard loadout I use the two handed glaive encarmine model as a counts as thunder hammer. If your group is cool with this its great because you can decide to use it either as a thunder hammer or glaive encarmine depending on points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 I have an Oppoent who runs one-Sarg: Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Jump Pack Hurm? Sargy can't take a Relic blade I don't think. Prove me wrong children..proove me wrong. He he. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted September 13, 2010 Author Share Posted September 13, 2010 been fooling around with a list abit and think im going to try a unit of 8 footslogging vanguard with added priest jumping from a stormraven... my local store allows proxies so il be attempting that soon :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 I have an Oppoent who runs one-Sarg: Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Jump Pack Hurm? Sargy can't take a Relic blade I don't think. Prove me wrong children..proove me wrong. He he. I'm pretty sure the marine version the sergeant COMES with a relic blade, either that or he can be upgraded to one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 I have an Oppoent who runs one-Sarg: Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Jump Pack Hurm? Sargy can't take a Relic blade I don't think. Prove me wrong children..proove me wrong. He he. I'm pretty sure the marine version the sergeant COMES with a relic blade, either that or he can be upgraded to one. Not the BA Vanguards. They have the option of the awesome Glaive Encarmine instead. This thread has convinced me that cheaper is better isn't always true... going to have to try a tooled up VV and HG. The latter seems like it would be terrifying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Here is how I run mine: Sergeant - thunderhammer & stormshield Veteran #1 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #2 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #3 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #4 - power sword & infernus pistol Veteran #5 - chainsword @ bolt pistol If I have the points leftover on the list I'll equip them all with meltabombs. It's an expensive unit but they are fantastic. Since I have the stormshields I can use them as a screen for my assault squad from enemy shooting if they are not engaged in an assault... It really works well. 0b :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgaryBA Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Here is how I run mine: Sergeant - thunderhammer & stormshield Veteran #1 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #2 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #3 - lightning claw & stormshield Veteran #4 - power sword & infernus pistol Veteran #5 - chainsword @ bolt pistol If I have the points leftover on the list I'll equip them all with meltabombs. It's an expensive unit but they are fantastic. Since I have the stormshields I can use them as a screen for my assault squad from enemy shooting if they are not engaged in an assault... It really works well. 0b :) Ah, here's the guy i mentioned earlier who came up with it. It really does a fantastic job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2510962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volchek Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 I use Van Vets like this: Sgt w PF or Glaive Encarmine (usually GE) 2 Vets with BP and PW 1 Vet with IP and CS 1 Vet with Flamer The most recent game these guys landed and charged a Tac Sqd and a Dev Sqd occupying the same building. This unit tied up 15 guys for 3 turns, which allowed my DC unit in a rhino to race across the field without taking enemy fire on that side of the table. They've killed Tervigons, HQ units, and troops that could do some long range damage. I always try to take a small unit in my list. The flexibility and punch is just too good to pass up. And with BA rerolling reserves and Scatter only D6 on a Deep Strike they are like a laser scalpel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2511090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 The thing with Vanguard Veterans is that they need to be played aggressively and hedged against for their randomness. Basically, always Deep Strike to assault and lump the mishap disasters as they come. For this purpose (and increasing the likelihood of Red Thirst) I stick with the default 5-man Squad + Jump Packs and a Melta Bomb. Sure, it costs as much as a Tactical Squad, but its potential for inflicting damage is much, much higher. The reward comes with risk, and you have to accept that. The best use of Vanguard Vets is to attempt to drop them into assault range of an expensive unit that is vulnerable in assault. Behind an enemy tank is always nice, as is landing them next to a heavy weapon squad of some sort. Devastators, Long Fangs, or even Lootas all seem like good options. Your goal is not to see your Vanguard survive, but to see them win back their points and deny your enemy some vital piece of mobility or fire-support so the rest of your army commands a decisive advantage on the field. Another way to accomplish this is to lock down an enemy unit so that they can't fall back from or preemptively charge you on-coming Assault Squads. Heck, a good Assault can also provide massive LOS blockage and cover for your advancing allies. Heroic Intervention is the be-all, end-all of the Vanguard Veterans. Very few units in the game can avoid the entire previous turn's Assault and Shooting phases and then immediately charge the enemy, and you pay a premium for it. So use it or lose it, as the saying goes. - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2511256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordofDeath11 Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Vets have to be one of the funnest units around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/210833-viable-vanguard/#findComment-2511270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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