Just how necessary is a Librarian?

[Br.Pat]

We all know that there are many nasty psychic powers are out there... lash, fortune, etc. And some of these are pretty game changing. I usually always choose a librarian as an HQ choice (usually with Null Zone.. amazing power) because of this.

 

Ofcourse there are other great HQ choices but I always feel naked without a librarian. What I want to know is, how effective is an army without one, especially against lash armies, avatar+fortune combos etc etc..

 

The main reason I'm asking is I want to take Pedro solely to make my Sternguard scoring, but I'm worried that I'll reduce the effectiveness of my army.

[Jackelope King]

A Librarian is a bargain and a half, and unless you need to alter the way your Force Organization Chart or Chapter Tactics work, I think they're usually my go-to. Cheap, shuts down psykers, makes Rock units cry blood. When you're running a different HQ as your main, the question then becomes whether or not it's worth the extra 100 points for psychic defenses.

 

Personally, I usually assume I'm starting with a Librarian when building a list, usually naked with Null Zone and Avenger. Then when I decide I'm running a different sort of list (Bikers, Dread Smash, Pedro Ambush, Mech Vulkan), I drop the Librarian, and see at the end whether I can squeeze him back in or not.

 

Not strictly necessary, but usually a great HQ unit.

[Br.Pat]

Yeah, they're great.

 

I have this dilemma.. I have 2 tactical squads in my army and a unit of sternguard at 1500 points. At that points level, it's probably best to have 3 scoring units. So I was thinking of removing my librarian and putting in Pedro.

 

But do you feel that your list is weaker without putting him in?

[Jackelope King]

I don't like Pedro below 2000 points. You need a big points-value game, so you can take advantage of his ability to create really nasty units of skirmishers for the enemy to tear through. If you don't have a lot of points, you can't afford to stick scary Rock units like Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Terminators in to come running in to assault enemy units pinned in place by multiple small units of stubborn, 3A Sternguard. His ability to make Sterguard into scoring units is just gravy. So yeah, I'd stick with the Librarian.

 

Having X scoring units at Y points value games is misleading. You need exactly 1 scoring unit to win a game: take one objective, contest all others.

[Br.Pat]

True. That's also taking not taking into consideration combat squads. So do you think 2 scoring units at 1500 points is enough?

[Xeonic]

Everyone agree that 5th edition is all about the objectives? Okay, well then you need scoring units. I'm not going to deny the experiences of others, but I find that I do better with 3 scoring units at 1500, even if one is a small scout squad, the merit of which is that they can make any spare rhino scoring easily.

Maybe I'm "old fashioned" or "stupid" for sticking to the 1 scoring unit per 500 pts rule of thumb.

 

I don't like holding one objective and contesting the rest. What if the game goes on and your contesting guys die? What if your one held objective gets contested by something nasty, like hammernators or nobs, or nurgle bikers, or a dread, or even scout sentinels tying your fistless minimalist tacticals up in CC so they can't be shot?

If there's three objectives, I want to hold two and contest the last. If there's 5 objectives I want to hold 2-3 and contest 2-3. I'm not greedy, I don't need to hold all the objectives, just one more than you have. :D

 

This is largely based on your local player base and metagame though. As I said, in my experience I do better(at 1500-1750) with a third scoring unit, and tactical marines are already really good for scoring units. Why wouldn't you want to take more? :)

 

EDIT: on topic though, I think while the librarian is probaby the most competitive choice for an all comers list, you can for sure get away with another HQ, as long as you're willing to accept the brunt of any psychic powers your opponent might field. I find my libby's hood is handy vs maybe + or - 50% of my opponents, which is good enough for me that I include him in 75% of my lists. :wub:

My lists are not however, purely efficiency, I take my captains out because they're nice models and they need some table time every now and again. Plus all my captains are more killy than a mere libby, which makes for more entertaining rounds of CC.

[Br.Pat]

The only reason I wouldn't want to take more is because I can't fit an extra tactical AND an ironclad dread =P I myself usually play with 2 tacticals and a 5 man scout squad, and I feel more comfortable that way.

 

Just want to know if 2 is enough.. /sigh

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I don't find a Librarian a compulsory choice, rather a really good one. I think you can win against many opponents without him. Lash isn't the bother it used to be now transports aren't the death traps of 4th edition, Daemons don't even have psychic powers whilst Farseer's have multiple attempts to caste the same powers so even if you stop it once fortune usually goes through anyway etc.

 

Still, I would add a Librarian in most games, provided I have the points. If I'm taking Honour Guard then I need a Chapter Master, so the extra 100pts plus his escort gets expensive.

 

Don't let people into scaring you into taking net-lists, that's what I say.

[Xeonic]

The only reason I wouldn't want to take more is because I can't fit an extra tactical AND an ironclad dread =P I myself usually play with 2 tacticals and a 5 man scout squad, and I feel more comfortable that way.

 

Just want to know if 2 is enough.. /sigh

I've run the 2 tac/5man scout squad many times and it works pretty well sometimes. My point was that I feel more comfortable at 1500 or so with no less than 3 scoring units, and have felt stretched a bit thin if I use less(depends on a lot of factors though). This may not be the case for you, and there's a lot of good argument for taking the requisite 2 minimal troops choices and packing in as much firepower as you can in the rest of your slots.

 

There is no clear-cut answer, and nobody can really tell you what works for you. Try running a few friendly games with 2 troops choices and see if you feel limited by it. If you do, cut the fat a little, and if not, well run with it.

 

1500 pts is a purposefully limiting game, where you have to carefully select your units and put actual thought into army composition. This is one of the reasons I like games that small, myself. :lol:

[mowglie]

I'll chime in.

 

The Librarian isn't necessary, he should just be your default if you don't have a particular need to take something else.

 

At low points values, it's not normally worth taking him alongside another HQ.

 

So, say to yourself "Do I need a special character, honour guard, a command squad, bike troops or dreds in heavy support to make my list function?"

 

If you answer "no" to all of the above, you should usually take a Librarian. You should also factor "not having a psychic hood" (or having to pay extra points for one) into the cost of all the other HQ choices.

 

The other main exception (particularly at very low points values) is taking a Chaplain if you've decided to field a JP assault squad. (finding transport space for a Librarian at 500 points is kind of a pain!)

 

Your HQ choice should support your list. The librarian can support any list. "Take a Librarian by default" just means "Take a librarian instead of a useless HQ that doesn't support your list".

[DarkGuard]

I echo other people here, a Librarian is by no means necessary, but he is fantastic value for his points, especially if run without upgrades. He can fit into almost any unit in the Codex, and his powers bring with him a fantastic level of diversity. However, unless every other opponent you play runs Eldar and CSM, don't feel you have to take him.

 

Also, to answer previous questions about if two Tactical Squads are enough, the answer is yes, you're just a bit safer running another scoring unit, like a small Scout Squad, but two Tactical Squads should be fine, you just have to be a little safer with them.

[yodaid764]

I played in a tournament this weekend where my Librarian was useless 90% of the time. Now most of that could be blamed on me since I had him in the back of the Razorback with the honor guard squad and not out using his abilities. And most of my oponents didnt have/use psychic powers.

The one game where he HAD a chance to do his job the dice turned against me. It was friggin turn 3 before I could get him withing hood range of Eldrad. The witch used 3 powers in a row each of which I failed to nullify with the hood. Last power was Mind War which killed the Librarian. Makes me wish I had gone for the chaplain instead.

In most other games I find him very useful. I generally am able to get him up close to the enemy to unleash hell. With the honor guard squad (stolen from Pedro) that 2+ armor save helps him hide better and gives opponents a major head ache.

[Br.Pat]

The bad thing about the librarian, however, is his fragility. A naked librarian is cheap yet easily killed... which restricts the units that you might want to put him in. And if you decide to give him a bike or terminator armour with a storm shield he starts to get expensive.

[Captain Idaho]

Your HQ choice should support your list. The librarian can support any list. "Take a Librarian by default" just means "Take a librarian instead of a useless HQ that doesn't support your list".

 

I like this. The Librarain really is a great choice in many lists and if you lack the need or desire of another choice, fall back on the trusty (ironic considering the fluff) Librarian.

[Ming]

Just a thought: Most opponent librarians have null zone and avenger. If you don't have any terminators or units with invulnerable saves, that opposing librarian has less value to them, and avenger means he has to get close enough to charge, which is bad for that IC. If your local game is few on eldar, daemons, chaos sorcerors, you can likely do well to use something other than a librarian and choose a force multiplier instead like Kantor.

[Jackelope King]

Just a thought: Most opponent librarians have null zone and avenger. If you don't have any terminators or units with invulnerable saves, that opposing librarian has less value to them, and avenger means he has to get close enough to charge, which is bad for that IC. If your local game is few on eldar, daemons, chaos sorcerors, you can likely do well to use something other than a librarian and choose a force multiplier instead like Kantor.

Kantor is weak sauce at 2000 points and below. He makes a shooty army stubborn. This is bad. You cannot just drop Pedro Kantor into an army and expect him to work. Kantor needs a list built around him, where you take advantage of Stubborn and his +1A bubble with multiple small units of models like Sternguard Combat Squadded out. These units can effectively pin an enemy in place, waiting for a rock unit to run up and clobber them.

 

If you cannot do these things with a list, then Pedro Kantor does not belong in it. A librarian, on the other hand, can just be plunked down into most lists (not all, to be certain) without a whole lot of extra effort. Null Zone won't always be needed, but it can really take some of the wind out of the sails of a mono-rock build. You might never get to use your psychic hood in a game, but it's becoming all the more common that you'll have to. And all but the most rock-hard infantry units are loathe to take a whack from the Avenger. (And if you're sitting pretty with points, I really do have to admit that I like taking Terminator Armor and Vortex of Doom... it makes opponents pee their pants when you have that sitting in reserve with a squad of TH/SS Terminators).

 

No. A librarian won't win you every game. It won't gut a half-dozen enemy models every turn like a Space Wolves Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount with Saga of the Warrior Born. It won't utterly smash anything in close combat like a a Hive Tyrant with Bone Swords and Lash Whips. But it supports your list against a lot of the nastier options that your opponents have out there. If you've built the rest of your list well, you should be able to handle the rest. That's all.

[DarkGuard]

To further back up Jackelope King's point, let me tell you about a game I had earlier today.

 

At 2000 points I had a Captain and a Librarian, both accompanied by a TH/SS Terminator unit in a Land Raider. Now while I had other units, the Librarian pretty much won the game for me, because of both of his psychic powers. His Null Zone let me get the edge on my opponent who was also using a LRR, but with Lysander with his mixed equipment Terminators. Because of Null Zone I wiped out more than half his unit in one combat phase, including Lysander, before killing the other two in his turn. This allowed my Terminators to push through and help clear his troops off the objective, helped by the Librarian with Avenger who killed his Scouts.

 

Basically, I see this as a good example of how directly and indirectly damaging a Librarian can be. Yes Avenger can kill many, many troops, but Null Zone can as well. I wouldn't have done so well in combat if I hadn't been forcing my opponent to make all those saves. Like many have said, he can fit into pretty much any list, and should be considered the default option unless there is something else that is better for your list. However, don't worry if you do have to take him, as even a basic one is a complete steal compared to what he can do on the battlefield.

[Br.Pat]

Indeed. Even a basic librarian with Null Zone is a bargain. For 100 points you're getting a Veteran Seargent with a Power Weapon (well Force actually) who can inhibit enemy psychic powers and force the enemy to reroll invulnearable saves.

[DarkGuard]

Indeed. Even a basic librarian with Null Zone is a bargain. For 100 points you're getting a Veteran Seargent with a Power Weapon (well Force actually) who can inhibit enemy psychic powers and force the enemy to reroll invulnearable saves.

 

Even better than Veteran actually with his increased WS, Wounds and very powerful heavy flamer :cuss

[Br.Pat]

that's if you can spare the extra 50 points though =P

[DarkGuard]

that's if you can spare the extra 50 points though =P

 

No need to, all that does is let you use two psychic powers, and with Avenger and Null Zone there aren't many situations where you're going to want to use both of them in the same round.

[Br.Pat]

that's if you can spare the extra 50 points though =P

 

No need to, all that does is let you use two psychic powers, and with Avenger and Null Zone there aren't many situations where you're going to want to use both of them in the same round.

 

... I didn't even know you could do that. Thanks =D

[Gunslinger87]

I never really used a librarian, as I find Cassius probably the biggest bargain in 40K and once I get into larger games, I skip over to Calgar, but he definitely has merits. Id like to see the maths though on null zone vs rerolls to hit on the charge. How many units really have an invulnerable save? The charge bonus is there all the time...

 

Hmmm Ignore shooting and the chance of null zone failing for now (I have a feeling we wont need it)

 

Charging Combat (in regular combat it is pretty much equal, but usually these are run in LR transports with the charge guaranteed)

 

Chaplain 4*8/9*1/2= 1.7777

5 LC Termies 5*4*3/4*3/4= 11.25

Total 13.03

 

Librarian (100) 4*2/3*1/2= 1.333

5 LC Termies 5 LC Termies 5*4*1/2*3/4= 7.5

Total 8,8333

 

Now with some 5+ invuls.

 

Chaplain 4*8/9*1/2= 1.7777*2/3= 1,19

5 LC Termies 5*4*3/4*3/4= 11.25 * 2/3 = 7,5

Total 8,69

 

Librarian (100) 4*2/3*1/2= 1.333 *8/9 = 1,19

5 LC Termies 5 LC Termies 5*4*1/2*3/4= 7.5 * 8/9 = 6,6666

Total 7,86

 

Chaplain is still better off, even if you ignore the fact that null zone might fail.

 

Yes, with 3+ invul opponents it will pay off, but then again, how often do two deathstar units clash? Or would you even want that?

[mowglie]

Chaplain is still better off, even if you ignore the fact that null zone might fail.

 

The important fallacy here is that you've already built the list around Cassius.

 

Try it again with a tacsquad at 14" at the start of your turn. Then tell me which (tacsquad or 5x LC TDA) you're more likely to find in a C:SM list.

[DarkGuard]

I feel you may be missing the whole point of using a Librarian, and in particular Null Zone. Yes a Chaplain is more useful in combat, no one is disputing that. For the same points he lets you re-roll hits on the charge, and comes with power weapon and 4++ save standard. So he's more killy (especially when boosting a close combat squad) and he's more durable, even more so if you're using Cassius. You are right that for a Chaplain, Cassius is a bargain. However, remember he has to be in the right unit to make an impact. Therefore, he works best with an assault unit.

 

The Librarian, on the other hand, isn't as killy as the Chaplain or the Captain, but makes up for it with flexibility and wide-ranging abilities. Yes that Chaplain might be able to kill a couple more guys thanks to re-rolls and digi weapons. However, the Librarian has powers that can meet that killiness, just in the shooting phase with powers such as Vortex of Doom and the Avenger.

 

Null Zone as well is a fantastic power. I'll agree that you are not always going to go up against armies with invulnerable saves, in which case, power wasted. However, it is invaluable for when you do use it. I've already provided one example of a game where Null Zone worked for, allowing me to butcher Terminators. I've had quite a few good experiences of using Null Zone to force my opponent to keep re-rolling his invulnerable saves against plasma weapons, demolisher rounds and the like, games against other Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines where Null Zone really was the difference. In one game it killed Dante, as beforehand he had passed every single invulnerable save until I made him re-re-roll it because of Null Zone. The handy thing about Null Zone is that when it is able to be used, it won't just affect one unit, but a large amount in one turn.

 

I feel that is what the Librarian has over the Chaplain, he can affect multiple enemies in different ways. With a Chaplain, you're opponent knows what you're going to do with it, assault. With a Librarian your opponent isn't so sure. Will you assault with your force weapon? Will you sit back and use shooting powers? Or will you keep Null Zone up to keep out his invulnerables.

 

I'm not saying the Chaplain isn't a good choice. If it fits in your list then it is the better option. This thread is to decide if the Librarian is necessary, and I think the general feel is that he isn't, but that he should be regarded as the default option unless there is a better option for your force, which I whole-heartedly agree with.

 

Of course, considering how cheap both the Chaplain (and Cassius!) and the Librarian are, why not take both in your army? Consider the amount of Termies you could kill in one round of combat then :)