The Assault Cannon Razorback

[Joasht]

It seems to be really popular, and I can understand that given its fairly killy and Fast, enabling it to reposition itself at will. However, when you think about it, its a 90-point 11 AV vehicle with one weapon which, at times, may not even fire (e.g. weapon/vehicle destroyed after the 1st round). In addition, if you take the upgrade several times (i.e. several Razorbacks), the cost difference between the TL HB and TL AC could have paid for say, a squad of three Attack Bikes. Or a few Land Speeders.

 

What do you guys think? Is the upgrade worth it?

Thanks!

 

EDIT: I should also mention that I'm talking more about "is the upgrade worth it", not so much "is the Razorback worth it". We all appreciate the usefulness of a transport with a gun strapped on :)

[Demoulius]

only used a HB RB and a TLLC RB and i can say, yes: they do indeed do rather easily and can sometimes fail epicly. the vehicle loses 12 inch range (it can 12 inches to migate that but thats aside the point) but rangs S6 and rending. depends indeed if you want to pay the points. if you dont want to pay the points (or already got your heavy slots filled) its a nice way to get another assault cannon i guess....

 

the lascannon costs the same as the AC upgrade (IIRC) and i can say that it has at times been worth it, and at times wasent nearly as effective as i liked... all depends on the usage i guess

 

people who actually use one can better reply to it however... :wub:

[Kunanaki]

I use 4 of the Buggers in my Army List, and I can honestly say there's a strong reason why it's worth it, even as you do lose a couple of your transports.

 

1. It's fast, which means that your assault cannon usually has a target that you can pick out and fire at.

 

2. It's Twin Linked. Not an exclusive, but with BS 4 and Twin Linked, you're more then likely going to hit 3 out of 4 shots fairly reliably.

 

3. Statistically, it can threaten any armour in the game. With such a volume of fire, it really can threaten any armour you run across, penetrating fairly reliably. I'm not a math hammer junkie, however I've heard it's more reliable then a lascannon.

 

4. Discount. The Assault Squads which I run them with put it back down from a 90 point model to the base price of taking a Razorback, 55 points, which is only 5 points more then a basic Rhino. Albiet if you took a rhino, it'd be a 15 point rhino, but we're not talking about that. For very cheap, you've got a reliable, threatening vehicle who has a purpose beyond throwing your guys into melee.

 

5. Rending. It happens sporadically, but the first time rending rips away something big and mean, you'll be glad you took it. Monstrous Creatures are a great example of such.

 

6. Strength 6. It may not seem like a huge thing, but the loss of 12 inches for Str 6, 1 more shot and Rending over the base heavy bolter means that you're threatening any high toughness model in the game. Wounding on a 4+ on Toughness 6, with a possibility of denying them an armour save, is priceless for a transport that's closing in on some very threatening armies.

 

 

Those are some advantages, but I'd be remise if I didn't point out the disadvantages as well.

 

1. Low Armour of the Razorback. It's going to die with any sort of focus, dragging your expensive turret down with it.

 

2. Range 24 inches. Right there in that uncomfortable melta range, though unless they are fast as well, or have some sort of trick, they probably won't be getting that extra d6 roll.

 

3. 35 Points. As you mentioned, it's pretty expensive. Though having an Assault squad cuts that down, you're really saying. "I don't want a power fist and a meltagun." The question is, can your army handle losing, per razorback, 1 PF and 1 Meltagun in this metagame? If you don't feel comfortable with that exact points cost difference, then Razorback Assault Cannons are not for you.

 

 

And that's my 2 cents in the matter. There are advantages, and disadvantages, to each choice.

[SamaNagol]

They will penetrate all armour better than a TL Lascannon, other than Monoliths and Eldar vehicles which negate rending. They will kill 3 horde infantry models a turn without fail. They can move full 12" and still fire at full capacity. They mitigate vehicles' weaknesses to being assaulted by having an assault squad inside.

 

They are a godsend

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

The downside of using them with a 5 man Assault Squad is that although you get a 35 point discount on the vehicle, the squad inside isn't really capable of much. Yes the AC on top is nice, but the squad inside can literally be useless because it lacks tactical flexibility.

 

Still, with good support, the TLAC Razorback with 5 RAS inside can be a pain to face in numbers and is the basis of the Blood Angel Mechanized list. TLAC are nice to have, but become really good in numbers. When you run 3 Baal Preds with them and 4 TLAC Razorbacks with 5 RAS inside you don't even have a 1500 point list yet but there is so many armor to shoot and so many S6 rending shots coming back to the enemy that the enemy does not stand a chance in the field of fire for long.

 

What that 'spam' list effectively does is give you the midfield, because no enemy wants to dare stand in the open with so many TLAC being able to rip at them. And that in itself is a tactical advantage and a dominating playstyle that a Jumpy or combined arms BA army cannot achieve.

 

Really though.. 1 or 2 in your list in a combined arms army is not a good option I feel. I'd rather have the more specialized TLLC or HB (which is also cheaper!) on the Razorback. But that is also because in Combined Arms lists you always go for a combination of specialists and not a repeated usage of good all-rounders, at least in my army building opinion.

 

To conclude, it depends on your playstyle and what you want from your BA army if the TLAC is good in my opinion.

[Brother Landrain]

The downside of using them with a 5 man Assault Squad is that although you get a 35 point discount on the vehicle, the squad inside isn't really capable of much. Yes the AC on top is nice, but the squad inside can literally be useless because it lacks tactical flexibility.

 

Still, with good support, the TLAC Razorback with 5 RAS inside can be a pain to face in numbers and is the basis of the Blood Angel Mechanized list. TLAC are nice to have, but become really good in numbers. When you run 3 Baal Preds with them and 4 TLAC Razorbacks with 5 RAS inside you don't even have a 1500 point list yet but there is so many armor to shoot and so many S6 rending shots coming back to the enemy that the enemy does not stand a chance in the field of fire for long.

 

What that 'spam' list effectively does is give you the midfield, because no enemy wants to dare stand in the open with so many TLAC being able to rip at them. And that in itself is a tactical advantage and a dominating playstyle that a Jumpy or combined arms BA army cannot achieve.

 

Really though.. 1 or 2 in your list in a combined arms army is not a good option I feel. I'd rather have the more specialized TLLC or HB (which is also cheaper!) on the Razorback. But that is also because in Combined Arms lists you always go for a combination of specialists and not a repeated usage of good all-rounders, at least in my army building opinion.

 

To conclude, it depends on your playstyle and what you want from your BA army if the TLAC is good in my opinion.

 

I agree...

The strength of the TLAC RB is in numbers,

similar idea to a Vindicator or a Landraider.

When one is not the best option

 

So much better in groups

 

The idea is the oposite of target denial, it is target saturation.

Give your opponent too many targets, and make them sweat.

 

I really have really been wanting to try out a 2000pt 5 Landraider army, just to see the look on their face when I set all 5 on the table at once.

[liberate_tutame]

So much better in groups

 

The idea is the oposite of target denial, it is target saturation.

 

I entirely agree with this. Another great thing about the Assault Cannon Razorback is that it does draw fire from the rest of my list, multiple TL-Assault Cannons simply cannot be ignored. This means my opponents attention and firepower is diluted across the whole of my army. I always want my opponent to be on the backfoot torn between what to try and kill and what to leave alone. The problem I find with TL-HB's is they can can be completely ignored.

[Brother_Dan'l]

The best thing about the tl Assault Cannon Razorback is that it is the version most likely to actually score a damaging hit. It rolls more dice than any other type and that means there's an extremely high probability the target will fail it's cover save. Added to the wonders of twin linked and Rending having 4 shots is pure win.

 

The tl Lascannon has to get really, really lucky to do it's job. With only a single attack and the high probability that the target will have a cover save...

 

And the tl Plasma Gun + Lascannon is just bit too schizophrenic. Combined with it's need to close to 12" or less to make full use of the Plasma Guns, I'm just not all that thrilled with it any more.

 

The Heavy Bolter and Heavy Flamer, while dirt cheap, are single purpose in that neither does you a damned bit of good when that enemy Dreadnought strolls around a corner.

 

As long as I can afford the points I'll take those Assault Cannons. If I can't afford the 35 points I go with the Heavy Flamers.

[Kunanaki]

The best thing about the tl Assault Cannon Razorback is that it is the version most likely to actually score a damaging hit. It rolls more dice than any other type and that means there's an extremely high probability the target will fail it's cover save. Added to the wonders of twin linked and Rending having 4 shots is pure win.

 

The tl Lascannon has to get really, really lucky to do it's job. With only a single attack and the high probability that the target will have a cover save...

 

And the tl Plasma Gun + Lascannon is just bit too schizophrenic. Combined with it's need to close to 12" or less to make full use of the Plasma Guns, I'm just not all that thrilled with it any more.

 

The Heavy Bolter and Heavy Flamer, while dirt cheap, are single purpose in that neither does you a damned bit of good when that enemy Dreadnought strolls around a corner.

 

As long as I can afford the points I'll take those Assault Cannons. If I can't afford the 35 points I go with the Heavy Flamers.

 

 

Very much agreed, especially if I don't have the points use the Heavy Flamer Option thing.

 

The Smart Alek in me wanted to say, when you said that enemy dread strolls around the corner, is that if you go behind it you could do something to it, and with 12 inches of moment it's possible, but I'd still rather have the Rending.

[Wildfire]

The good thing about the tllc razor is that it doesn't need to get close to work. Combined with the ability to move 12" (to stay away from the enemy, to get a shot on side armor, to move LOS so it's not going thru terrain, etc.), it does give the tllc some advantages over the tlac.

 

And personally, I like the fast las/plas razor. It can throw out 3 AP2 shots within 12", and still move 6". It can also get a weapon destroyed result and still fire usefully.