Yes another topic on Night Haunter

[Legatus]

I just don't see how you can use Chaos magic as an excuse for how Tsagualsa was built when it was from a Primarch and Legion that didn't use Chaos at least at that time in history.

According to the Index Astartes article, they did.

 

And how exactly were the Alpha Legion wronged? :huh:

[Bulwyf]

I just don't see how you can use Chaos magic as an excuse for how Tsagualsa was built when it was from a Primarch and Legion that didn't use Chaos at least at that time in history.

According to the Index Astartes article, they did.

 

And how exactly were the Alpha Legion wronged? :)

 

But according to everything else they've always been a Legion that sees Chaos as a tool to be used as needed but nothing to be worshipped. At that point in time they weren't even involved with Chaos.

 

I never said the AL was wronged which is why it was in quote marks. I said they have sympathetic reasons as to why they turned "traitor" which if you have read the HH novel "Legion" you would understand why. I don't want to spoil it for others but the big reveal is two possible futures the Old Ones revealed to their two primarchs and the Legion chose the one that caused the least amount of suffering and was in their opinion's closer to the Emperor's vision of the galaxy.

[Legatus]

But according to everything else they've always been a Legion that sees Chaos as a tool to be used as needed but nothing to be worshipped.

That's what the Index Astartes says as well. The point is that it says that they were using Chaos as a tool at that point already.

[Bulwyf]

But according to everything else they've always been a Legion that sees Chaos as a tool to be used as needed but nothing to be worshipped.

That's what the Index Astartes says as well. The point is that it says that they were using Chaos as a tool at that point already.

 

I disagree with that. I never recall any instance of where Curze personally used Chaos or the NL openly using Chaos at the tie of his murder. He is the one that is given credit for building the fortress after all.

[Legatus]

According to the Index Astartes article they did. And neither the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos nor the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines were very detailed in their description of what kind of Chaos the Night Lords use and don't use, and when they started.

[Csm001]

Welcome, brother Piousservant. Nice to meet a Muad´Dib follower here.

I guess you haven't been reading the Horus Heresy series... Where even the World Eaters are "wronged heroes"

That´s true. The first time is amazing, the next one is surprising, ... the fifth is boring. I got tired too. And if one legion deserve to remain insane, it should be the Night Lords.

I actually like this World Eaters new thing. Khorne is War, but War is not only kill kill kill. There are too many Gods of War out there to take background from.

 

@Bulwif

But as for the rest? Horus went traitor and his Legion followed him, Angron went traitor out of jealousy, Perturabo went traitor out of spite and pride, Logar is the only true blue Chaos believer, etc. The only other Legion that seems to have any kind of sympathetic reasons for why they turned would be the Night Lords and that's if the whole Emperor used them as terror shock troops and wanted to get rid of them when it became politically expedient to do so. Note the if in that previous sentence.

Horus: there are three books and a LOT of things you missed, including vissions of the future, cryptic references to lost primarchs,… It is simply too much and off-topic. Perhaps the very best piece of information is "The Lighting Tower", where Malcador and Dorn talk about why the primarch is actually feeling... fear.

Angron: nope. The Emperor left Angron´s “family” to die. All his friends. And he allied with the killers. Angron got an Anger Management critical failure and stopped killing the Emperor´s soldiers only when Khârn swore…. well, just read “Tales of Heresy”.

Perturabo: WHAT? SOMEBODY DID WROTE A HH NOVEL ABOUT BIG P AND I DIDN´T GOT IT? Wow, you just made me the happiest man on Earth. At least we will know the truth!!!!

Lorgar: you belief you are the Son of God all your life and conquest the world in the name of Your Father. Then He comes and tells you that he is just a powerfull psyker (a mutant just like the ones you hate) and stop crying I order you to keep fighting for me. Well, there is actually a HH (by Mr ADB, no less) just coming now, so we can consider this background in state of flux (fear is the mindkiller; fear is the mindkiller; this novel is already written; fear is the mindkiller).

 

Why would Curze use Chaos magic to make a living fortress when his whole point of dying there was to prove a point to his father? Seems counter productive.

Yep, this is a good question. Until you get the point: Curze was insane. He was talking about justice while drenched in blood and chaos.

 

a Primarch and Legion that didn't use Chaos at least at that time in history.

From Night Hunter, I guess.

The rest of the sources say quite the opposite. The Index Astartes depicts Curze, at the moment of his death, having turned into something pretty close to a demon. I mean physically.

 

I disagree with that. I never recall any instance of where Curze personally used Chaos or the NL openly using Chaos at the tie of his murder.

1) Index Astartes- Bringers of Darkness. Pages 25 -27

2) Lord of the Night: all the parts beginning with the words “On Tsalguasa”. Sahaal is adept in the practical uses of chaos as a tool, without being a psyker, though we don´t know when he learnt it all. No, wait, he got trapped just after Curze´s death, so he learnt it before.

3) Dark King: Curze is a quite powerfull psyker. The Living Lighting and his supernatural skill to find shadows where there is no shadow to hide may or may not be related to chaos.

4) Nightfall: no references (didn´t say the contrary however).

5) Night Hunter: yeah this one say you are right.

Does this summarize our main sources of knowledge, brothers?

I actually want to know if I am missing something.

 

@A D-B

As far as I know, my opinion has never really changed on this point. The entire point of Lord of the Night wasn't to inspire doubt; it was that Sahaal was wrong. The published canonical background states that he's wrong, and the reason Sahaal is interesting as a tragic character is that he's incorrect, and has allowed himself to be deceived. I know I've said that on this forum (and others) a bajillion times, but I wanted to reiterate that again, because I saw a mention or two of "Aaron said X."

Agreed.

 

Just a little something: as all the characters were surrounded by the purest chaos you can find in the W40K background at that very moment they are recalling, those who still kept talking about “justice” or “vindication” are insane. The rest had fallen to chaos at that point, so they are insane too. There was not sane people on Tsagualsa (but for, perhaps, Talos). Unreliable Narrator trope for all of them.

This “no one know nothing” thing feels good to me, and enrich the book. Just an opinion.

EDIT: sorry I missed something. There IS a reliable narrator: the vid-log of M´Shen, which content we know. Index Astartes, again.

 

Get used to the “Aaron said X”, people like this kind of thing. It´s easier.

[Legatus]

Why would Curze use Chaos magic to make a living fortress when his whole point of dying there was to prove a point to his father? Seems counter productive.

The living fortress actually aided Night Haunter to make the point he was trying to make. His point was not that he was good and the Emperor was bad. His point was that he himself was bad, and the Emperor had to kill him. Night Haunter had become an evil and wicked scourge to the Imperium, and the only way to deal with him was extreme prejudice. In that, Night Haunter was demonstrating that what he himself had done during the great crusade had been neccessary. He had been "right" in his methods. (Up untill the point when he went over the edge and turned to Horus, that is.) The living fortress helped, because that and all the other atrocities meant the Emperor had to act decicively.

 

Throughout his service for the Emperor Konrad Curze had been ruthless to the extreme, and had been criticised for it. When he turned, he became the most horryfying threat to the Imperium, and so forced his fathers hand to use just as extreme measures, thus proving that this, what he had done throughout the Great Crusade, was the only reliable way.

[Bulwyf]

Welcome, brother Piousservant. Nice to meet a Muad´Dib follower here.

I guess you haven't been reading the Horus Heresy series... Where even the World Eaters are "wronged heroes"

That´s true. The first time is amazing, the next one is surprising, ... the fifth is boring. I got tired too. And if one legion deserve to remain insane, it should be the Night Lords.

I actually like this World Eaters new thing. Khorne is War, but War is not only kill kill kill. There are too many Gods of War out there to take background from.

 

@Bulwif

But as for the rest? Horus went traitor and his Legion followed him, Angron went traitor out of jealousy, Perturabo went traitor out of spite and pride, Logar is the only true blue Chaos believer, etc. The only other Legion that seems to have any kind of sympathetic reasons for why they turned would be the Night Lords and that's if the whole Emperor used them as terror shock troops and wanted to get rid of them when it became politically expedient to do so. Note the if in that previous sentence.

Horus: there are three books and a LOT of things you missed, including vissions of the future, cryptic references to lost primarchs,… It is simply too much and off-topic. Perhaps the very best piece of information is "The Lighting Tower", where Malcador and Dorn talk about why the primarch is actually feeling... fear.

Angron: nope. The Emperor left Angron´s “family” to die. All his friends. And he allied with the killers. Angron got an Anger Management critical failure and stopped killing the Emperor´s soldiers only when Khârn swore…. well, just read “Tales of Heresy”.

Perturabo: WHAT? SOMEBODY DID WROTE A HH NOVEL ABOUT BIG P AND I DIDN´T GOT IT? Wow, you just made me the happiest man on Earth. At least we will know the truth!!!!

Lorgar: you belief you are the Son of God all your life and conquest the world in the name of Your Father. Then He comes and tells you that he is just a powerfull psyker (a mutant just like the ones you hate) and stop crying I order you to keep fighting for me. Well, there is actually a HH (by Mr ADB, no less) just coming now, so we can consider this background in state of flux (fear is the mindkiller; fear is the mindkiller; this novel is already written; fear is the mindkiller).

 

Why would Curze use Chaos magic to make a living fortress when his whole point of dying there was to prove a point to his father? Seems counter productive.

Yep, this is a good question. Until you get the point: Curze was insane. He was talking about justice while drenched in blood and chaos.

 

a Primarch and Legion that didn't use Chaos at least at that time in history.

From Night Hunter, I guess.

The rest of the sources say quite the opposite. The Index Astartes depicts Curze, at the moment of his death, having turned into something pretty close to a demon. I mean physically.

 

I disagree with that. I never recall any instance of where Curze personally used Chaos or the NL openly using Chaos at the tie of his murder.

1) Index Astartes- Bringers of Darkness. Pages 25 -27

2) Lord of the Night: all the parts beginning with the words “On Tsalguasa”. Sahaal is adept in the practical uses of chaos as a tool, without being a psyker, though we don´t know when he learnt it all. No, wait, he got trapped just after Curze´s death, so he learnt it before.

3) Dark King: Curze is a quite powerfull psyker. The Living Lighting and his supernatural skill to find shadows where there is no shadow to hide may or may not be related to chaos.

4) Nightfall: no references (didn´t say the contrary however).

5) Night Hunter: yeah this one say you are right.

Does this summarize our main sources of knowledge, brothers?

I actually want to know if I am missing something.

 

@A D-B

As far as I know, my opinion has never really changed on this point. The entire point of Lord of the Night wasn't to inspire doubt; it was that Sahaal was wrong. The published canonical background states that he's wrong, and the reason Sahaal is interesting as a tragic character is that he's incorrect, and has allowed himself to be deceived. I know I've said that on this forum (and others) a bajillion times, but I wanted to reiterate that again, because I saw a mention or two of "Aaron said X."

Agreed.

 

Just a little something: as all the characters were surrounded by the purest chaos you can find in the W40K background at that very moment they are recalling, those who still kept talking about “justice” or “vindication” are insane. The rest had fallen to chaos at that point, so they are insane too. There was not sane people on Tsagualsa (but for, perhaps, Talos). Unreliable Narrator trope for all of them.

This “no one know nothing” thing feels good to me, and enrich the book. Just an opinion.

EDIT: sorry I missed something. There IS a reliable narrator: the vid-log of M´Shen, which content we know. Index Astartes, again.

 

Get used to the “Aaron said X”, people like this kind of thing. It´s easier.

 

I'm not a fan of people who intentionally misspell someone's username. You've consistently misspelled my user name to, I can only assume since you've stated yourself you are nothing but a troll looking for attention, to do just that. I don't misspell your name. A simple courtesy is expected.

 

I'm not "missing" anything. Horus got stabbed, get a vision quest with a flaming red warning sign of Magnus the Red saying DON'T BELIEVE THIS and he still went traitor. The most disappointing element plot wise in the HH is that Horus had no real reason to betray the Emperor except to save his own life and to have a chance to replace the Emperor. He chose that. He's not a "tragic" character in any sense of the word.

 

Angron? Yes, the Emperor let his fellow gladiator slaves die. So what? From reading the HH you get the distinct impression he wanted to be named Warmaster and when he wasn't he was jealous and bitter from it. His fits of rage induced kill anything also didn't mix well with the "Imperial Truth" but again he's no "wronged" character.

 

Big P? He was already pissed that his Legion kept being used as a garrison while everyone else got to play hero and when the Emperor asked Dorn to build up the Palace's defenses it was a slap in the face of the rivalry between he and Dorn over who was the better siege breaker/defender. Who cares? That's not a real reason to betray anything.

 

Logar doesn't even need explaining. He wanted to believe in something so badly he found something to worship. He's the only one that actually had a valid, non sympathetic but still evil reason to betray that we've seen portrayed in the HH so far.

 

Can't wait to see how the Death Guard get shown as why they turned. Did the Emperor spray a can of Raid in Mortarion's face? :drool:

 

None of the examples you listed show Curze actively using Chaos (not the Warp, CHAOS) and worshiping it. Just using psy powers is not the same as actively knowingly using Chaos as Chaos itself as a tool.

 

I also believe in Lord of the Night Sahaal had felt some Chaos spirits already wanting him to embrace them and he did so reluctantly and only as a tool. I don't recall him remembering some scene from the distant past where Curze showed all the lil' Night Lords how to play with their Chaos toys and put them away under their beds at night later.

[Csm001]

I'm not a fan of people who intentionally misspell someone's username. You've consistently misspelled my user name to, I can only assume since you've stated yourself you are nothing but a troll looking for attention, to do just that. I don't misspell your name. A simple courtesy is expected.

I´m sorry. I assure you it is not intentionally. I write fast and make many mistakes. My apologies.

 

I still do not agree with you in the rest of it.

Big P: we do not know anything. I guess it has something to do to not having proved himself worthy before Emp found him.

Mortarion: Emp and him got big issues in their first encounter. But there must be something more.

Horus: there are many things there. Seriously, there are three books. What about the scene with the missing primarchs? What did the Emperor did to them? Horus knew he was not trusted. What else did he know? According to "Vissions of Heresy", the big E sent the Space Wolves to destroy The Thousand Sons and erase any reference to them from the imperial archives. Sound familiar?

Angron: again, real big issues. "his fellows gladiators"? The only friends they had. He only stop killing when K promised him that the World Eaters will fight AGAINST the Emperor if (with a big "when" implicit there) Angron starts his revenge.

Fulgrim: perhaps the only flaw I find in the book is just this. He just trusted Horus at the same time a demon got him. Well.... a bit lame. I found the rest of the book delightful.

Curze: he was insane from the very beginning. The hability to foresee didn´t help.

 

The examples of Curze using chaos in The Dark Kight: yes, you are right. Psyker or tainted, we don´t know. Probably psyker, actually. But at least his mind was sick at this time already.

 

The rest of the examples? Sorry, I don´t want to annoy you, but I can´t understand that. They were in a fortress made of living people. Mr ADB, you and whoever wants can dislike it, but if we are talking about official background here, they were. They were chattering totally drenched in gore and managed to somehow communicate even in the middle of thousands of throats screaming tjheir brains out. I gave you the references and it is all there. And this IS chaos, the purest chaos you can find. And I know Mr ADB do not use it in Night Hunter. But it is the only place. Reread Lord of the Night and search for the "On Tsalguasa" words, or the pages from Index Astartes. I don´t know why Curze was doing such an incredible use of pure chaos, but he was. And he become something demonic due to that. In Index Astartes he looks as something really similar to a demon prince. He was half way to becoming a demon prince when he got murdered. How can you explain Tsagualsa without the half-demon wold theory?

 

And then again, a lot of people do that. They read LotN and get the "dramatic hero" point without the utter atrocity around. This utter atrocity is chaos. And they keep talking like heros of old because they are out of their minds.

 

Sorry again for getting wrong your name, Bulwyf.

[Legatus]

"Night Haunter was quick to pledge allegiance to Horus, and it became clear that all the allegations levelled at the Night Lords were true. From the planet of Tsagualsa, deep within the wilderness area of space known as the Eastern Fringes, the Night Lords launched a campaign of genocide and purest evil that made their previous atrocities pale in comparison. They pledged no allegiance to any particular Chaos power, looking upon such devotion with scorn. Instead, their Primarch fed on fear, and eventually became what he most loathed. Soon enough, the ranks of his once-proud Legion were entirely composed of sadistic murderers and criminals granted the power to oppress anyone they chose by the Primarch's own potent gene-seed. Rather than serving Chaos, the Night Lords used it as a tool in their inhuman works. The galaxy trembled at the very mention of the dread Legion, and slowly but surely, the Night Lords carved a bloody trail towards Terra."

Index Astartes II, "Night Lords", page 25/26.

[Csm001]

Are we allow to do that?

"Sitting in a pool of shadow upon a throne made from the fused bones of his victims, a carpet of still-screaming faces leading up to gnarled, naked feet, sits Night Haunter himself. His madness and hate radiate from him, palpable even through such a remote medius as a vid-log."

Index Astartes II, "Bringers of Darkness" (Night Lords), page 26/27.

 

You can like it or not, but this is taken from a book that is the nearest thing to a codex the NL are probably ever going to get. And the source is a vid-log, a machine, a Reliable Narrator, which is kept in "the most venerable Callidus shrine" as a relic (I liked the "Godkiller" point Mr ADB did in Night Hunter; again I insist: this book is full of jewels and I strongly recommend it).

Madness.

Chaos.

Hate.

This is what Night Lords are about.

[Bulwyf]

"Night Haunter was quick to pledge allegiance to Horus, and it became clear that all the allegations levelled at the Night Lords were true. From the planet of Tsagualsa, deep within the wilderness area of space known as the Eastern Fringes, the Night Lords launched a campaign of genocide and purest evil that made their previous atrocities pale in comparison. They pledged no allegiance to any particular Chaos power, looking upon such devotion with scorn. Instead, their Primarch fed on fear, and eventually became what he most loathed. Soon enough, the ranks of his once-proud Legion were entirely composed of sadistic murderers and criminals granted the power to oppress anyone they chose by the Primarch's own potent gene-seed. Rather than serving Chaos, the Night Lords used it as a tool in their inhuman works. The galaxy trembled at the very mention of the dread Legion, and slowly but surely, the Night Lords carved a bloody trail towards Terra."

Index Astartes II, "Night Lords", page 25/26.

 

Thank you, that validates several previous points I've made:

 

That Tsagualsa was not in the Eye of Terror but in the Eastern edge which completely disqualifies the "daemon world" explanation for how a "living fortress" could be possible

 

That the NL at no point worshiped Chaos and at the most only used it as a tool

 

That Curze himself never used Chaos and nothing I've seen or read (I don't do the audio books. I want something tangible to read not listen to) has shown otherwise

[Bulwyf]

Are we allow to do that?

"Sitting in a pool of shadow upon a throne made from the fused bones of his victims, a carpet of still-screaming faces leading up to gnarled, naked feet, sits Night Haunter himself. His madness and hate radiate from him, palpable even through such a remote medius as a vid-log."

Index Astartes II, "Bringers of Darkness" (Night Lords), page 26/27.

 

You can like it or not, but this is taken from a book that is the nearest thing to a codex the NL are probably ever going to get. And the source is a vid-log, a machine, a Reliable Narrator, which is kept in "the most venerable Callidus shrine" as a relic (I liked the "Godkiller" point Mr ADB did in Night Hunter; again I insist: this book is full of jewels and I strongly recommend it).

Madness.

Chaos.

Hate.

This is what Night Lords are about.

 

 

I think you can quote as long as you give source but you can't for example make posts of "quoted" material to basically give books away for free.

 

I have no problems with the Night Lords being "evil". I also must point out that GW is entirely capable of rewriting lore/fluff at the drop of a hat. My friend that still uses his Chaos Dwarf and Squat armies in our local table top games can attest to that.

[Legatus]

Thank you, that validates several previous points I've made:

 

(...)

 

That the NL at no point worshiped Chaos and at the most only used it as a tool

That's what I told you a few posts ago.

 

 

That Curze himself never used Chaos

That's not what the description says, and it strongly indicates otherwise.

 

1. Night Lords use Chaos. Night Haunter is acting commander of the Night Lords. ==> Conclusion.

 

2. He lives in a living palace.

 

But maybe his Chaos using Legion built it for him. Maybe Night Haunter himself did not use any Chaos powers. But he still had his living palace.

[Bulwyf]

Thank you, that validates several previous points I've made:

 

(...)

 

That the NL at no point worshiped Chaos and at the most only used it as a tool

That's what I told you a few posts ago.

 

 

That Curze himself never used Chaos

That's not what the description says, and it strongly indicates otherwise.

 

1. Night Lords use Chaos. Night Haunter is acting commander of the Night Lords. ==> Conclusion.

 

2. He lives in a living palace.

 

But maybe his Chaos using Legion built it for him. Maybe Night Haunter himself did not use any Chaos powers. But he still had his living palace.

 

We've never seen an active instance of him using Chaos. That's my point. I've also maintained in more than this thread that the NL don't worship Chaos they use it as a tool. The whole "well Tsa was in the Eye of Terror so he musta been worshiping Chaos in order to build a living fortress" is debunked when we know it was in the Eastern Fringes.

 

Night Haunter is the Primarch, he's already a meta human capable of inhuman acts both physical and mental. He doesn't "need" Chaos as a tool. The fact we've never seen him actually use it makes me think he never did.

[Legatus]

We've never seen an active instance of him using Chaos. That's my point. (...)

 

Night Haunter is the Primarch, he's already a meta human capable of inhuman acts both physical and mental. He doesn't "need" Chaos as a tool. The fact we've never seen him actually use it makes me think he never did.

I don't think we have seen him do anything between fleeing from his cell and being killed by M'shen, really, so that is a bit of a moot point.

 

 

I've also maintained in more than this thread that the NL don't worship Chaos they use it as a tool. The whole "well Tsa was in the Eye of Terror so he musta been worshiping Chaos in order to build a living fortress" is debunked when we know it was in the Eastern Fringes.

I don't think anyone was saying that they "worship" Chaos in order to build a palace out of living flesh. They were just using it as a tool. And now they have a palace of living flesh.

[Csm001]

That Tsagualsa was not in the Eye of Terror but in the Eastern edge which completely disqualifies the "daemon world" explanation for how a "living fortress" could be possible

Why? The Eye of Terror is where Chaos is stronger, but the demon worlds are spread through the galaxy. And the Maelstorm is full of them too.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Galaxy#Chaos

Every time the veil is teared by the unprotected mind of a psyker or being ritully summoned by the forces of chaos. Was Curze an innocent psyker used by chaos (primarchs didn´t know that much about chaos, and Curze was insane and perhaps with a split personality) or a chaos worshipper/user opening the veil? We don´t know. But we know he built a living fortress, and you need a lot of chaos to do so.

 

You are saying (correct me if you don´t) that you don´t see any use of chaos, so a living fortress is making no sense. I see a living fortress all the time. It is a use of chaos. And a big one indeed. I don´t know what uses had Tsagualsa, but Gehemehnet looks pretty similar: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gehemehnet. It´s from the Word Bearers trilogy. A building that used people as building material. It channel the forces of chaos through the planet, changing it into a demon world.

 

It was Night Haunter himself who built the tower, and showed it to the captains of the Night Lords. He didn´t use an army of millions of slaves to build a fortress, he did it all himself.

 

I don't think anyone was saying that they "worship" Chaos

Maybe I have... I am so used to the word "worship" that I use it too much. It should not be applied here. My Word Bearers side, perhaps. They use chaos, and chaos is sort of spiritual for me.

[Bulwyf]

That Tsagualsa was not in the Eye of Terror but in the Eastern edge which completely disqualifies the "daemon world" explanation for how a "living fortress" could be possible

Why? The Eye of Terror is where Chaos is stronger, but the demon worlds are spread through the galaxy. And the Maelstorm is full of them too.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Galaxy#Chaos

Every time the veil is teared by the unprotected mind of a psyker or being ritully summoned by the forces of chaos. Was Curze an innocent psyker used by chaos (primarchs didn´t know that much about chaos, and Curze was insane and perhaps with a split personality) or a chaos worshipper/user opening the veil? We don´t know. But we know he built a living fortress, and you need a lot of chaos to do so.

 

You are saying (correct me if you don´t) that you don´t see any use of chaos, so a living fortress is making no sense. I see a living fortress all the time. It is a use of chaos. And a big one indeed. I don´t know what uses had Tsagualsa, but Gehemehnet looks pretty similar: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gehemehnet. It´s from the Word Bearers trilogy. A building that used people as building material. It channel the forces of chaos through the planet, changing it into a demon world.

 

It was Night Haunter himself who built the tower, and showed it to the captains of the Night Lords. He didn´t use an army of millions of slaves to build a fortress, he did it all himself.

 

I don't think anyone was saying that they "worship" Chaos

Maybe I have... I am so used to the word "worship" that I use it too much. It should not be applied here. My Word Bearers side, perhaps. They use chaos, and chaos is sort of spiritual for me.

 

You keep using apples as examples when the discussion is about oranges. An expressly Chaos worshiping Legion uses Chaos to fashion something is an apple. A Primarch that didn't use Chaos or even AFAIK even directly acknowledged its existence in any lore or fluff building a structure is an orange. There are no other oranges to compare to that orange. I don't care about apples. We already said way back in the thread using "magic" as a reason to explain how some things work is fine. But there's no proof or even a hint of proof that Night Haunter used "magic" to construct that fortress.

 

And since he's the only one acknowledged as building it himself (I mean the guy only had the Horus Heresy to pass his time with but he found time to build a gigantic fortress of living people...hmm...methinks ADB would do away with this whole nonsense if he had his druthers) then we have no real way of explaining how it was built.

 

It really isn't that big of a detail but its like the Night Lords "corruscating" armor and the other Chaos Chapter in the index that has molten lava armor in its failure to pass the mustard test. How do you repair molten lava armor btw? Slap some slag on it? :D

[Csm001]

But there's no proof or even a hint of proof that Night Haunter used "magic" to construct that fortress.

I will agreed here. There is no proof.

I am using apples because there are not enough oranges out there.

 

But there is no other way to such a thing, particularly if you are alone. Or at least I can not imagine another way to do it. If anyone can do, I would like him to share it, but it will be no doubt a great story.

 

It is actually hard to explain. But we can entertain fantasies to do it. Was one of Curze´s personalities worshipping –not using- chaos? Some god got inside him?

My favourite: it was all an illusion, Tsagualsa is just a concept and the Screaming Gallery is just the idea of countless victims of Curze yelling for vengeance. Whenever a captain of the NL (save, why not, Talos) got near Curze, they shared the illusion. Crime and Punishment, so to say, mixed with Apocalipse Now. Edgar A Poe “Tell-Tale Heart” W40K style.

 

Don´t you see the endless possibilities? It sounds nonsense because a few pieces of the puzzle are missing. But it could be the ground for a great great story.

 

And I WISH to know, I wish for this story to get written. I don´t want any BL author come and say “well I don´t think it´s cool so I wipe it up”. Mr ADB have showed us that he is good enough for it, but he is not willing to do it: in Night Hunter Tsagualsa is out, and with it a lot of stuff I love. It´s the easier path.

[A D-B]

And I WISH to know, I wish for this story to get written. I don´t want any BL author come and say “well I don´t think it´s cool so I wipe it up”. Mr ADB have showed us that he is good enough for it, but he is not willing to do it: in Night Hunter Tsagualsa is out, and with it a lot of stuff I love. It´s the easier path.

 

Soooorrrrrrrrt of. You're wrong when you say it's the easier path, though. You couldn't be more wrongalicious. The easiest path is to blindly copy everything that went before. But, look:

 

Try to remember, it's not in one book in a series of 3 (and maybe 6) novels, where the scene in question was barely mentioned.

 

It doesn't mean it will never show, or that I have some weird desire to wipe it from canon. In the past, as it was presented, it hasn't exactly inspired me - and I know a lot of people that thought it was ball-achingly lame as it was presented in the past. So perhaps it's come across as a little silly and childish more often than chaotic and terrible. Whatever. I don't really care. At no point have I thought "Yes, I'll delete it." I never think that about published canon. My devotion to the canon is something practically every review I've had has liked about me. It's certainly something I get thanked for a lot of the time, usually in comparisons to Author X, Y or Z, for various fan-based reasons that, legally, I can't say I agree or disagree with.

 

Ahem.

 

As it happens, Tsagualsa is something I really like, and will revisit on several occasions, from different perspectives and moments in time. You've already said (and, dude, thanks by the way) that you really liked my writing. Well, to return the favour, I like your opinion a lot. Even if I disagreed with it (and I don't) I'd still take it on board.

 

tl;dr -- Don't worry.

[Bulwyf]

But there's no proof or even a hint of proof that Night Haunter used "magic" to construct that fortress.

I will agreed here. There is no proof.

I am using apples because there are not enough oranges out there.

 

But there is no other way to such a thing, particularly if you are alone. Or at least I can not imagine another way to do it. If anyone can do, I would like him to share it, but it will be no doubt a great story.

 

It is actually hard to explain. But we can entertain fantasies to do it. Was one of Curze´s personalities worshipping –not using- chaos? Some god got inside him?

My favourite: it was all an illusion, Tsagualsa is just a concept and the Screaming Gallery is just the idea of countless victims of Curze yelling for vengeance. Whenever a captain of the NL (save, why not, Talos) got near Curze, they shared the illusion. Crime and Punishment, so to say, mixed with Apocalipse Now. Edgar A Poe “Tell-Tale Heart” W40K style.

 

Don´t you see the endless possibilities? It sounds nonsense because a few pieces of the puzzle are missing. But it could be the ground for a great great story.

 

And I WISH to know, I wish for this story to get written. I don´t want any BL author come and say “well I don´t think it´s cool so I wipe it up”. Mr ADB have showed us that he is good enough for it, but he is not willing to do it: in Night Hunter Tsagualsa is out, and with it a lot of stuff I love. It´s the easier path.

 

I appreciate how much you enjoy the flesh castle but it (in my opinion) is a bit silly. Reading his response it seems ADB agrees as well. It makes no sense how it could be constructed and its honestly just more of the LOL CHAOS CAN DO ANYTHING type of literary devices we see in BL novels.

 

What you are suggesting would have been an interesting angle but we have M'Shen's vid log that showed it actually existed so the whole "it was just an illusion from a crazed psyker" argument can't apply.

[Scribe]

As an aside, Angron didnt turn on the Emperor out of jealousy, if anything he was simply showing his true intentions. I dont feel he was ever a loyal servant. While his legion at one time would have been, even they crossed the line before Angron even comes into the picture and starts with the brain implants at which point things get turned up to 11 on the Slaughter scale, and they really start pushing at the bounds of what the Imperium is willing to accept.

 

Angron and the World Eaters saw their personal truth in the way the universe functioned, and simply lived within it. The fact that it was aligned with what the Emperor wanted for a time is simply a nice coincidence. When it came right down to it, Angron was ready and more then willing to turn against the a force that he did not particularly like, and again in my opinion never embraced as a master (the Emperor).

 

Now, please carry on with the Night Lords discussion. :lol:

[Piousservant]

We've never seen an active instance of him using Chaos. That's my point. I've also maintained in more than this thread that the NL don't worship Chaos they use it as a tool. The whole "well Tsa was in the Eye of Terror so he musta been worshiping Chaos in order to build a living fortress" is debunked when we know it was in the Eastern Fringes.

 

Night Haunter is the Primarch, he's already a meta human capable of inhuman acts both physical and mental. He doesn't "need" Chaos as a tool. The fact we've never seen him actually use it makes me think he never did.

 

Ok, so I was wrong about the EOT - so it goes, long time since I read the IA.

 

I think I'm somewhat repeating what Legatus has already said, but I still don't see why he must have been worshiping Chaos to use its power - the Night Lords don't worship the Chaos Gods like the other Legions do, but they do use Chaos as a means to an end. Chaos as a tool. Don't understand why that isn't a reasonable explanation for how they build a castle made out of flesh.

[Csm001]

Mr ADB

As it happens, Tsagualsa is something I really like, and will revisit on several occasions, from different perspectives and moments in time. You've already said (and, dude, thanks by the way) that you really liked my writing. Well, to return the favour, I like your opinion a lot. Even if I disagreed with it (and I don't) I'd still take it on board.

I am happy now.

Consider me eagerly expecting more awesome books from you.

 

The sun rises on New Nostromo. The old sorcerer, sitting on his throne, slowly realizes he is not dreaming. His eyes sore as he baths on the warm light.

 

Bulwyf

What you are suggesting would have been an interesting angle but we have M'Shen's vid log that showed it actually existed so the whole "it was just an illusion from a crazed psyker" argument can't apply.

Yes you are right.

I am sad now.

 

Twilight on New Nostromo. The old sorcerer blinks and says: “that´s it? That´s all we get? It is not FAIR!!”.

“Oh, cut the **” –says the throne- “it was more than you deserved”.

 

[Bulwyf]

We've never seen an active instance of him using Chaos. That's my point. I've also maintained in more than this thread that the NL don't worship Chaos they use it as a tool. The whole "well Tsa was in the Eye of Terror so he musta been worshiping Chaos in order to build a living fortress" is debunked when we know it was in the Eastern Fringes.

 

Night Haunter is the Primarch, he's already a meta human capable of inhuman acts both physical and mental. He doesn't "need" Chaos as a tool. The fact we've never seen him actually use it makes me think he never did.

 

Ok, so I was wrong about the EOT - so it goes, long time since I read the IA.

 

I think I'm somewhat repeating what Legatus has already said, but I still don't see why he must have been worshiping Chaos to use its power - the Night Lords don't worship the Chaos Gods like the other Legions do, but they do use Chaos as a means to an end. Chaos as a tool. Don't understand why that isn't a reasonable explanation for how they build a castle made out of flesh.

 

I'm not talking about using the Warp for a generic power source to do things. I'm talking specifically acknowledging the existence of Chaos and then using it as a tool as Sahaal did in "Lord of the Night". We don't have any examples of Night Haunter even being aware of the existence of Chaos let alone actively embracing it even just to use it as a tool. Being a powerful psyker like all Primarchs were he had an innate ability to use the Warp but that's a totally different argument from using it as Primal Chaos and using it as a tool.