Yes another topic on Night Haunter

[Csm001]

You don´t need to be aware of chaos to use and be used for it.

For instance, the psykers during the Great Crusade. Nobody knew about chaos, but they were activelly using it. And during the age of strife many psykers opened they mind to the demons without even believing in their existence. Demons were aliens, and sorcerers psykers.

[Legatus]

I'm not talking about using the Warp for a generic power source to do things. I'm talking specifically acknowledging the existence of Chaos and then using it as a tool as Sahaal did in "Lord of the Night". We don't have any examples of Night Haunter even being aware of the existence of Chaos let alone actively embracing it even just to use it as a tool.

We don't know anyting Night Haunter did after fleeing from his detention cell and destroying Nostramo. That we therefor have no accounts of him using Chaos powers does not mean anything.

 

We know that his Legion used Chaos as a tool during that time. And we know Night Haunter resided in a palace of living flesh. So, what would be the most reasonable conclusion based on that?

[Bulwyf]

I'm not talking about using the Warp for a generic power source to do things. I'm talking specifically acknowledging the existence of Chaos and then using it as a tool as Sahaal did in "Lord of the Night". We don't have any examples of Night Haunter even being aware of the existence of Chaos let alone actively embracing it even just to use it as a tool.

We don't know anyting Night Haunter did after fleeing from his detention cell and destroying Nostramo. That we therefor have no accounts of him using Chaos powers does not mean anything.

 

We know that his Legion used Chaos as a tool during that time. And we know Night Haunter resided in a palace of living flesh. So, what would be the most reasonable conclusion based on that?

 

There are no indications his Legion used Chaos during that time except one blurb from one sourcebook. No other source verified that remark. There are no indications NH used Chaos or was even aware of its existence. Unless ADB starts inserting background material that shows it then I don't think it is logical or safe to assume they were using it. One isolated sentence in IA II not referenced anywhere else is not enough.

 

Edit: I am starting to think if I say that grass is usually green and the sky is usually blue that Legatus will show up to disagree. :tu:

[Legatus]

There are no indications his Legion used Chaos during that time except one blurb from one sourcebook. No other source verified that remark.

No other source even comments on that, so the one source we have, which is widely regarded as one of the most important source for any of the original 18 Legions, is still to be considered factual. I have shown you the source, but your reaction basically amounts to putting your fingers into your ears and shouting "lalalalal, can't hear you".

 

 

There are no indications NH used Chaos or was even aware of its existence.

Yes there are. I already named two, but there is one more.

 

1. Night Haunter sided with Horus, whose forces were very aware of Chaos.

 

2. Night Haunter's Legion used Chaos.

 

3. Night Haunter resided in a palace of living flesh, which is only really explanable by Chaos.

 

 

Edit: I am starting to think if I say that grass is usually green and the sky is usually blue that Legatus will show up to disagree.

I am starting to think if you said the grass on Jupiter was purple, because we have never seen any evidence that it's not, and I then showed you a scientific report showing that the grass on Jupiter was yellow, you would just disregard it and continue to claim that the grass on Jupiter is purple.

[Lay]

Hi Lay. Lot of Night Lords here.

Yup, but I ain't one of them. :)

 

Brother Lay: do you know which aspect of W40K is, imho, the most difficult to justify? Tactics. People who actually like to read about war read something W40K and they LOL till they puke.

As a rule of thumb, it's always the one that bugs you the most. Anyway, I'd say logistics of any kind are pretty messed up in 40k since it's such an over-the-top setting.

 

One isolated sentence in IA II not referenced anywhere else is not enough.

Seeing how the Index Astartes articles deal with the history of the Legions, a sentence that describes at which point a Traitor Legion begins to use Chaos is rather crucial. And valid when there's nothing contradicting it.

[Bulwyf]

There are no indications his Legion used Chaos during that time except one blurb from one sourcebook. No other source verified that remark.

No other source even comments on that, so the one source we have, which is widely regarded as one of the most important source for any of the original 18 Legions, is still to be considered factual. I have shown you the source, but your reaction basically amounts to putting your fingers into your ears and shouting "lalalalal, can't hear you".

 

 

There are no indications NH used Chaos or was even aware of its existence.

Yes there are. I already named two, but there is one more.

 

1. Night Haunter sided with Horus, whose forces were very aware of Chaos.

 

2. Night Haunter's Legion used Chaos.

 

3. Night Haunter resided in a palace of living flesh, which is only really explanable by Chaos.

 

 

Edit: I am starting to think if I say that grass is usually green and the sky is usually blue that Legatus will show up to disagree.

I am starting to think if you said the grass on Jupiter was purple, because we have never seen any evidence that it's not, and I then showed you a scientific report showing that the grass on Jupiter was yellow, you would just disregard it and continue to claim that the grass on Jupiter is purple.

 

No other source "commenting" on it only exacerbates the point I am making. There's nothing to support the notion other than one sentence fragment about the Legion (not Night Haunter) using Chaos at an indefinite point in time after siding wtih Horus. As you yourself said we don't actually know much about what Night Haunter did from escaping from prison up to destroying Nostramo and frankly not much after that either.

 

I don't take a lack of evidence to support anything. It is what it is. The IA II article has one throw away sentence fragement over this with zero details. Absolutely no other source supports that sentence fragment. I take it you that there is really a Chaos Chapter running around with molten lava armor because of one throw away line in the latest CSM codex?

 

None of your examples actually prove anything other than your ability to try and disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with a user name. :lol:

 

Night Haunter sided with Horus. Yes, he did. We don't know exactly when he did and we know that Horus was hiding his Chaos tendencies at first when he went traitor. There's nothing anywhere that shows NH using Chaos or even acknowledging its existence.

 

Night Haunter's Legion used Chaos. Yes, one sentence fragment in one IA article says they did...at some point in time...with no description at all of how they used it or if the Primarch did or if he supported its use. There's nothing there to prove or disprove NH's use of Chaos or even acknowledging its existence.

 

NH built a fortress of living people. Yep. He's also a Primarch possessed of metahuman abilities including natural psy powers. I never said he didn't use the Warp. I said we don't see him using Chaos. Again, that is a fairly significant detail.

 

Unlike your supposed Jupiter grass which btw I didn't know you could grow grass on a gas giant ;) you don't have any scientific evidence (in this case anything official) showing NH's personal use of Chaos and embracing Chaos even to use it as a tool. Maybe he did but we haven't seen any proof of it. Just like, in the other thread a month or so ago, we never have seen a reasonable explanation of how so many original Night Lord Legion died to see almost all of them replaced with "degenerate criminals" from Nostramo.

 

There had to have been some kind of cataclysmic event to explain that but we've never seen it. Just like NH and Chaos.

[esinhorn]

Maybe it is not chaos or magic at all and just the fact the sick f'ers just sewed together thousands of people and used that as a form of living carpet/wallpaper.

In a future setting with future medicine you could probally keep them alive for alot longer than you think.

But I would hate to be one of the faces underneath his knarly feet

 

Also isn't the beauty of 40k that fact that no one has it 100% accuate and all the 40k fluff is ancient legends that has been retold so many times the are litterally hundreds of versions of the same story.

Hell I read somewhere 90% of the galaxy has no clue that the HH ever even happened.

[Bulwyf]

Maybe it is not chaos or magic at all and just the fact the sick f'ers just sewed together thousands of people and used that as a form of living carpet/wallpaper.

In a future setting with future medicine you could probally keep them alive for alot longer than you think.

But I would hate to be one of the faces underneath his knarly feet ^_^

 

Also isn't the beauty of 40k that fact that no one has it 100% accuate and all the 40k fluff is ancient legends that has been retold so many times the are litterally hundreds of versions of the same story.

Hell I read somewhere 90% of the galaxy has no clue that the HH ever even happened.

 

I'm really not trying to make a big deal out of the living fortress. I just don't think its anything other than a silly LOL CHAOS moment from GW. When you read the fluff and lore you obviously have to live in a suspension of disbelief for many things. I guess its just the nerd in me that points out thing like that.

[Csm001]

One isolated sentence in IA II not referenced anywhere else is not enough.

Lord of the Night. That´s two references.

And remember we have only three sources on the topic of Curze´s death: the third is Night Hunter, which was the cause of this topic being opened (nerd rage on my part, for I loved Tsagualsa).

 

I think it´s in Lord of the Night where it is stated that NH did Tsagualsa alone.

 

@Lay:

Yep, logistics is a headache too.

Tactics: First World War trenches being attacked by manga tanks and then demons appeared but the day is saved by cavalry.

And what about numbers? Full planetary systems have been conquered by crusades using far less soldiers than, say, the russian army in II WW.

 

Hi esinhorn! Wow I didn´t expect the imperial inquisition.

Also isn't the beauty of 40k that fact that no one has it 100% accuate and all the 40k fluff is ancient legends that has been retold so many times the are litterally hundreds of versions of the same story.

Completely agreed.

GW has stated many times than everything is seen through legends.

 

Hell I read somewhere 90% of the galaxy has no clue that the HH ever even happened.

Nor have they seen a Space Marine. And most people think the Inquisition is just an urban legend. And people usually say they believe in demons, but most do not at all. The Inquisition kills them if they actually see a demon.

My favourite: if my memory does not betray me, the codex: black templars clearly states that there was only 10 legions, one of them (Horus) betrayed the Emperor. There is not need for young neophytes to hear rubbish about “half the astartes turned against our beloved big E”.

[Chengar Qordath]

Tactics: First World War trenches being attacked by manga tanks and then demons appeared but the day is saved by cavalry.

And what about numbers? Full planetary systems have been conquered by crusades using far less soldiers than, say, the russian army in II WW.

Tactics might be somewhat excusable due to the vastly different nature of 40k tech.

 

Numbers ... not as much. It doesn't matter if they're super-human astartes or not, a couple hundred is not enough to conquer and control multiple inhabited worlds with a population in the billions, massive galaxy-altering battles having fewer people on both sides than major battles from either World War, and hive world with a population in the tens or hundreds of billions under active military threat has a garrison smaller than Denmark's peacetime standing army.

[esinhorn]

Hi esinhorn! Wow I didn´t expect the imperial inquisition.

 

No One Expects the Imperial Inquisition

Our Chief weapon is surprise after all,fear and surprise and... ;)

[Hellios]

Tactics: First World War trenches being attacked by manga tanks and then demons appeared but the day is saved by cavalry.

And what about numbers? Full planetary systems have been conquered by crusades using far less soldiers than, say, the russian army in II WW.

Tactics might be somewhat excusable due to the vastly different nature of 40k tech.

 

Numbers ... not as much. It doesn't matter if they're super-human astartes or not, a couple hundred is not enough to conquer and control multiple inhabited worlds with a population in the billions, massive galaxy-altering battles having fewer people on both sides than major battles from either World War, and hive world with a population in the tens or hundreds of billions under active military threat has a garrison smaller than Denmark's peacetime standing army.

 

Not all planets have billions however... many may have only thousands... and then you have the tech level... I reckon 200 marines (and suitable support) could take on armies with many millions of troops if they are armed with sticks and rocks... as long as the marines can keep a supply train going... Then you have the we just destroyed your capital city and all your leaders in 2 seconds surrender or die... lets not mention the forces that might defect over to the Imperium before or during the War... If advanced aliens appeared above Earth now and said they were taking over some nations would choose to fight them but I bet you hitlers left testicle that some would support the aliens. Oh and finally on the technology note... If you took the technology that US forces in afghanistan have down to the level that afhanistan fighters have... I reckon the so called insurgents would win... Having air craft that the insurgents can't do much about gives the US a hellava advantage...

 

The same applies in 40k... When a Battle Barge and two strike cruisers with a few small escorts (by small I mean under 2km long) appear in system many people are going to start thinking... is this a fight we can win... and even if they decide to fight the 'rapid strike force' nature of space marines means they can be in an out before the enemy can mobilise... and if the enemy want to move large forces at once they may need to rely on large ground convoys or large ships... which are things that orbital strikes can actually hit.

 

You are right about the control bit... although a single space marine has ruled a world before... but generally the space marines get the ball rolling and then the Imperial guard and administration will be brought in for 'peace keeping' and setting up infrastructure while the planet is brought into the Imperial system.

[Prokrustes]

Wasnt there some fluff piece (maybe the Night Lords attack in the BRB) talking about the Nightlords aligning the corpses of their victims in a certain pattern before leaving the planet and thus summoning lots of demons as a parting gift for the remaining populace?

Gotta dig this part out..Im sure it is Night Lords but I forgot where it has been written. So there we would have another reference to using chaos...as a tool.

And why wouldnt NH use chaos btw? He was pretty insane already and some of the voices talking to him inside his head might have been chaos anyway. Furthermore, in the first mention of the NL ever, they worship Khorne ;-) (Realms of Chaos, the one with khorne in it).

As a side note, if the NL are tragic anti-heros, and the 1k sons are, and the alpha legion is just misunderstood...who is the evil insane psycho legion nowadays?

[Brother Nihm]

Wasnt there some fluff piece (maybe the Night Lords attack in the BRB) talking about the Nightlords aligning the corpses of their victims in a certain pattern before leaving the planet and thus summoning lots of demons as a parting gift for the remaining populace?

Gotta dig this part out..Im sure it is Night Lords but I forgot where it has been written. So there we would have another reference to using chaos...as a tool.

Scound's Fall. A small flotilla of Night Lord ships slips through the Cadian gate and spend months in the warp avoiding detection. Scound's Fall, a small planet located 100 light years from Terra is chosen as a target because of it's large Schola Progenium Abbey, the training grounds for future Imperial Admirals, Commissars, Storm Troopers and Sisters of Battle. After seven days of fighting there are no survivors left from the Night Lords' attack and the butchered remains from both sides are laid out in talismanic patterns, to help with the summoning of a daemonic horde. Daemons rampage across half the world while the Night Lords head for the Eye of Terror, eluding Imperial warships intent on their capture. The daring of the attack sends shockwaves through the military organisation of the Segmentum Terra and results in the court martial and penitent exile of Lord Commander Solar Jaxon.

 

 

As a side note, if the NL are tragic anti-heros, and the 1k sons are, and the alpha legion is just misunderstood...who is the evil insane psycho legion nowadays?

We are, some people will go to great lengths to try to make the Night Lords seem differently however.

[Bulwyf]

Wasnt there some fluff piece (maybe the Night Lords attack in the BRB) talking about the Nightlords aligning the corpses of their victims in a certain pattern before leaving the planet and thus summoning lots of demons as a parting gift for the remaining populace?

Gotta dig this part out..Im sure it is Night Lords but I forgot where it has been written. So there we would have another reference to using chaos...as a tool.

And why wouldnt NH use chaos btw? He was pretty insane already and some of the voices talking to him inside his head might have been chaos anyway. Furthermore, in the first mention of the NL ever, they worship Khorne ;-) (Realms of Chaos, the one with khorne in it).

As a side note, if the NL are tragic anti-heros, and the 1k sons are, and the alpha legion is just misunderstood...who is the evil insane psycho legion nowadays?

 

I'm not sure what you are referencing in this thread but no one has said the NL don't use Chaos as a tool. The question in the thread was when exactly that started, how it started and was NH using it as a tool or even really aware of its existence. No one has said the current Night Lords do not use Chaos as a tool.

 

As to your side note I would say that the Alpha Legion are truly misunderstood only in why they went traitor but their actions are expressly to bring about Chaos in the entire galaxy. The Thousand Sons have a legit case of being tragic. I don't know if the NL are tragic anti heroes by any conventional meaning of the term. They openly embraced the role of butchers the only question is if they were used expressly for that purpose.

[esinhorn]

I would think Curze really discovered Chaos during the period after Istivan where they went buck wild.

Slaughtering a sector would tend to get thier attention I would think.

[Csm001]

Hi esinhorn! Wow I didn´t expect the imperial inquisition.

 

No One Expects the Imperial Inquisition

Our Chief weapon is surprise after all,fear and surprise and... :D

…an almost fanatical devotion to the Emperor? That´s a deathly combo. :lol:

 

I would think Curze really discovered Chaos during the period after Istivan where they went buck wild.

Slaughtering a sector would tend to get thier attention I would think.

I don´t get where are you all going with the “discovering chaos” thing. Chaos is the source of warp-power, the power of emotions, the psy-power, faith, what the ancients called magic. Chaos is power, in any form, related to emotions.

Chaos is just a word that is used to refer to an emotional ether that can be used for some people to do “miracles”. Psykers use it, crusaders use it, any man in rage use it, librarians use it, Caligula used it, Stalin used it and so on. In my humble, humble opinion, perhaps you (all) just use the word “chaos” to restrict this definition to the “ordered”, easy structure of chaos which appears in some places in the W40K´s background, as a simplification. But do not forget that chaos is everywhere, shapeless and eternal. Khorne is Rage, Slaanesh is Desire,… there´s nothing new.

I think Curze didn´t follow any of the main gods of chaos.

 

There must be something in his first years on Nostramo. All that darkness and madness and crime and justice… And I love the split personality issue. This is the moment for Curze to embrace chaos, in its purest form: when he was a child. The rest of his deeds (the rituals, the entire sector slaughter, Tsagualsa…) are just more steps in the path.

 

They openly embraced the role of butchers the only question is if they were used expressly for that purpose.

All space marines embraced the role of butchers from the beginning.

The Night Lords went a lot more steps farther. I think Prokrustes is saying that the Night Lords shouldn´t justify themselves with something like “we just followed orders”. The bit from the codex illustrate this. This legion is made of the purest chaos.

 

Hi Hellios

I reckon 200 marines (and suitable support) could take on armies with many millions of troops if they are armed with sticks and rocks... as long as the marines can keep a supply train going... Then you have the we just destroyed your capital city and all your leaders in 2 seconds surrender or die...

I disagree. Most armies in W40K are not armed with sticks and rocks. Orks, Tau or imperial rebels are the weakest you usually find. And the killing of, say, just a little army of 20.000.000 soldiers will take a lot of time for this 200 marines. That´s the reason marines are not usually used for this. They go for the head, and they are a propaganda weapon, heros to inspire your men.

But I was actually talking about, for instance, the Imperial Guard. They send 20000 soldiers to take and control a planet with similar technology and billions of chaos worshippers /orks, which can not be intimidated with the menace of an orbital strike. And we are not even talking about guerrilla.

[esinhorn]

Let me rephrase,after Istivan is when Chaos starting answering back.

[Csm001]

Let me rephrase,after Istivan is when Chaos starting answering back.

Yeah, that´s better.

 

However I still believe some little part of Curze was near Chaos since his happy childhood in Nostramo. Perhaps there were other parts of him that fought against this.

[esinhorn]

Maybe,if the split personality thing arises.

As a child I see him I hate to use this cliche,but I see him just like the Dark Knight

(The badass Frank Miller one not the queer ass Super Fiend :) )

I see him completely Law and Order which makes his fall more tragic when he finally looses his cookies and Embraces the dark side.

Could be another reason he lets M'Shen kill him,It is his intate need of Law and Order that Demands monster like him put down.

[Csm001]

Actually I wasn´t fond of that batman stuff (I am afraid I hate heros of any kind), but then I see "the dark knight" movie and just surrender. And I love the split personality bit, with the joker inside batman, so to say.

[Hellios]

Hi Hellios

I reckon 200 marines (and suitable support) could take on armies with many millions of troops if they are armed with sticks and rocks... as long as the marines can keep a supply train going... Then you have the we just destroyed your capital city and all your leaders in 2 seconds surrender or die...

I disagree. Most armies in W40K are not armed with sticks and rocks. Orks, Tau or imperial rebels are the weakest you usually find. And the killing of, say, just a little army of 20.000.000 soldiers will take a lot of time for this 200 marines. That´s the reason marines are not usually used for this. They go for the head, and they are a propaganda weapon, heros to inspire your men.

But I was actually talking about, for instance, the Imperial Guard. They send 20000 soldiers to take and control a planet with similar technology and billions of chaos worshippers /orks, which can not be intimidated with the menace of an orbital strike. And we are not even talking about guerrilla.

 

Foolish Mon-Keigh we do not require you to be intimidated by the 'menace' of our weapons... all that we require is that you die!

 

I'm sure many space marines feel the same... Oh hai we are going to slag your strong points from orbit and then we will come in and kill you but not just you but everyone and everything that stands for things we don't stand for... and unlike the Eldar... marines probably won't give you a chance to leave the planet...

[esinhorn]

Actually I wasn´t fond of that batman stuff (I am afraid I hate heros of any kind), but then I see "the dark knight" movie and just surrender. And I love the split personality bit, with the joker inside batman, so to say.

 

Now that is a good mix,though I do not think Curse could pull off the Nurses Uniform as well :devil:

[Csm001]

I do not think Curse could pull off the Nurses Uniform as well

Why not? He is a primarch, he is good at all.

 

Hummm, this topic has go slightly rogue... I don´t see Mr ADB adding this Nurses Uniform stuff in his next book.

[A D-B]

I do not think Curse could pull off the Nurses Uniform as well

Why not? He is a primarch, he is good at all.

 

Hummm, this topic has go slightly rogue... I don´t see Mr ADB adding this Nurses Uniform stuff in his next book.

 

Yeah, but I love this place. I take any B&C suggestion seriously.