5 TWC x 1, or 2, 2, 1 TWC x 3 - To split or not

[Karack Blackstone]

Greetings brothers, it is time for more theorycrafting and experience relating. I come before you today with a question that is giving me some issue with why one should keep a big pack of TWC. I figure it's because of the higher wounds. It has also been argued to me that many, small (1 or 2 man) TWC units may work out better.

 

So here's the question I have. One five man pack of TWC, or three packs of two, two and one each. A TWLord would be taken as well, allowing the one to have another model attached.

 

Current loadout on the TWC x 5 is TH, SS x 5. The 2, 2, 1 TWC are Fists x 3 (across the packs) and all SS's as well.

 

Pros: (Five man)

- More assault units (but not always enough in CC?)

- Nice and big, threatening unit.

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Cons: (Five man)

- Difficult to maneuver

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I'm curious to see what people come up with. I have a list in progress in the Army List section that this is in reference to.

 

Pros: (Multiple small units)

- Better assault options (fewer models means better CC options)

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Cons: (Multiple small units)

- Chews up points fast

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Please post replies and give reasoning behind your logic. I can't read minds.

 

I'll edit this post to see how this all goes, getting feedback and what not. Please keep things civil, this is more theorycrafting for some as I am waiting for GW TWC to come out, so I haven't tried anything yet with them.

 

The primary purpose of this thread is to discuss Pros and Cons of each set of units. Posts about TWC models that are worth getting that do not contribute to the overall discussion (not relating experience or lack of numbers and percentages) are not exactly going to help me answer this question.

 

Thanks for your time, brothers. *Gets some ale kegs ready just in case.*

 

Edit: Considering the lack of posts for the time I have to read this today, would two units of three work out better? Or three and two?

[PKAwolf]

Currently I run 1 squad (of 4) with a Thunderlord. Id like to try 2 identical units of 3 each, but my problem is thus: I bought my models as a set of 5 and to get more of the similar style I would have to purchase 5 more and shelf 4 of them (or run 3x3 and shelf one, but this is 630pts before any IC or extra wargear).

So MSU con: it may not be ($)cost effective to run an even number of wolves when using models from the same source.

 

edit MSU pro: even run as small as 3 solo TWC you have the ability to give each one a thunder hammer which is more S10 attacks a turn than the standard single unit with an IC

[HunterShades]

i feel that the best setup (which ive used anyways) is 4 TWC 1 PF, 1 MB, 1 SS and 1 basic means i can takes hits in combat, dish out the pain and vs most stuff hopefully stick about (against marines anyways with there ATSKNF and PA) have tried 2 units of 3 was good... but lacked really becuase with only 6 wounds you kinda lose out fast needs 4 wounds to bring one down so you cant charge headlong into a dedicated assult unit like you want to half the time.. but you can wipe 2 units in one turns (if your lucky or by sweeping etc)

 

i mean i ran a 4 man pack without the SS, with canis and ran through half an army at 1500pts before everyone died xD

 

pros of 4 man:

fairly cheap at 260pts (if you dont have a SS model or dont want it 230pts inc bolter... which is how i run then half the time)

fairly killy too and easy-ish to get cover for vs nasty stuff

can make other units more survivable (i.e. if you put TWC near fangs or whatever people kinda dont wanna go near until they cav are dead)

 

cons:

its 260pts and usually wants a char in there (to be dead killy and wipe units for fun) so makes it about 500pts ish

can as with every thing everywhere die quick to heavy weapons teams/vindi's etc

[RayJ]

Splitting these guys up gives you the ability to cover more situations and table area with these fast-moving buggers. As noted, this also gives you better access to more S10 attacks. I think the biggest pro is that you don't need to spend all those points on an HQ to keep the effectiveness up, though adding one doesn't necessarily hurt.

 

The cons are that the individual units are a little more fragile. They will die to shooting more quickly than a single squad and give up more kill points. I think if one is trying to build 3 large squads, this can be a problem as all are pricey. 3 squads of 2 models has a larger footprint as well, but you have a good bit more staying power.

 

I would personally not put special gear on the second model in each squad, so assuming a powerfist and one storm shield, your unit comes out at about 155 points. That is just about perfect for being a harassment and getting some much-needed survivability. the 'normal' TWC model should be given wounds first, as he isn't really important, and basically gives the heavy hitter 4 wounds to work with. You can then get 12 hard-hitting durable wounds for about 465 points. That's pretty good in my book.

 

The key with the smaller units is that you want to have each one hit a weak unit, or you want them all to hit one problem unit. This will force the opponent to direct attacks, and will mean he is much more likely to overkill a single unit or leave them all still standing by not allocating enough to a particular model. Your retaliation here should be more than strong enough to compensate.

[wolf363839]

I've had great success with a Thunderlord accompanied by 2 TWC, 2 SS, 1 TH. It's enough of a shield to get the Lord and TH into CC and saves points that I can use elsewhere on a second Vindicator.

[Wildfire]

Another pro of the larger TWC squads is that they only take one slot. Do you really not use anything else from FA?

[Thunderhawk3015]

Pro(5man):

The 5 man TWC unit is like a Land Raider with Ragnar and a Wolf Priest in it with (insert nasty cqc unit here). It is perceived as a threat and therefor your opponent will spend much more time than he should concentrating fire on it. While he is doing that you can be sneaky and pop some Wolf Scouts up behind him or be introducing him to the joys of a Grey Hunter or Skyclaw assault.

 

T5 base with 2 wounds. This makes is very hard to kill them when coupled with a couple SS models for those annoying Krak+ heavy weapons that players tend to throw at the TWC.

 

Pro(small unit):

Rending with 4 attacks base(5 on the charge), assuming SS/CCW means even a small unit can dish out some serious hurt before thunderhammers are added.

 

Con(5man):

It is a large and unwieldy unit so your avenues of approach are going to be somewhat limited, smaller units limit this somewhat but now you can be chewing into your fast attack slots which you may or may not want to consider using for other things(Skyclaws and Land Speeders spring to mind here).

 

Can only have one powerfist/thunderhammer, offset slightly by the fact that there are more attacks period and that models may be given meltabombs for cracking enemy armor.

 

Con(small unit):

Easy to whittle down to force moral checks, creating the potential for your unit to be making an exit stage deployment zone.

 

Can cost more points quickly adding in all the special weapons/equipment. These points may or may not be better spent elsewhere in the list.

 

 

One overall con for TWC in general is that they are viewed as the "only" way to go by many players when in fact there are many other options in the codex that can be used that cost less in terms of points and coin for conversions etc. That said Thunderwolves are a nifty idea, except they are really a one trick puppy. They have to get into cqc to be of use due to the points they cost because they cannot go up levels in ruins(where many people like to place objective markers when facing them). Once they are stuck with nothing to assault weight of fire will bring them down no matter how good of a save or how nasty they are in close combat.

[wolf363839]

One overall con for TWC in general is that they are viewed as the "only" way to go by many players when in fact there are many other options in the codex that can be used that cost less in terms of points and coin for conversions etc. That said Thunderwolves are a nifty idea, except they are really a one trick puppy. They have to get into cqc to be of use due to the points they cost because they cannot go up levels in ruins(where many people like to place objective markers when facing them). Once they are stuck with nothing to assault weight of fire will bring them down no matter how good of a save or how nasty they are in close combat.

 

Well said. There is no NEED for TWC to make a winning army. In fact, without them they look and feel very similar to our last codex. Wolves are still deadly without big ones that you ride.

 

Also, consider the points invested vs what you get. For 190 pts you get 2 TWC with 2 SS and TH (makes a good bodyguard). For 390 pts you get 5 TWC with 3 SS, TH, Meltabombs, and Plasma Pistol while all 5 have different wargear (makes a good deathstar unit).

[Bikeninja]

I run a Thunderlord and 4 TWC along with him. I run one Powerfist and all with SS's. Expensive in the extreme for certain but the staying power is awesome. While wound allocation is negated for the most part this unit is now a power house that can handle anything on the table. The only thing that I have had problems with is the Swarmlord. And that was my fault for being stupid.

 

Wound allocation is great and keeping the points down is sometimes a necessity. I build my army around this unit. Everything is in support of getting the TWC where it needs to go so it can do its business. When I have played games running the Lord and 2 TWC they end becoming ablative wounds to the Lord and do not last long. That is just what has happened to me.

 

I love to run them though. They are fun.

[Karack Blackstone]

So consensus so far seems to be that big units and small units have their places, depending on the fight.

 

I also will point out that I have 0 to 3 FA slots for TWC in my list. I was wondering if it would be worth getting 16 models to fill them all out at some point, but that list would be really nasty, if not unwieldy.

 

As far as size of TWC goes, it seems 3 to 4 is the best range, 4 without a TWLord, 3 with. What say you, SW Forum Board?

[Godhead]

If I'm only running one unit of TWC (and I've yet to run more than 1) I prefer 4 twc and a wgbl or lord. That way if your opponent focuses on your IC, then your TWC unit can still be effective even if they lose a member or even 2.

 

Also if there are tiered ruins on the board, you can set an objective marker near the ruins and prevent your opponent from placing theirs on top. It's no different than someone using a bike army.