'Suicide' scouts

[Obliterator]

I've been enjoying coming up with army lists lately, more specific army lists that represent the loyalist first founding chapters on the battlefield. Today I was trying to come up with a Ravenguard list, so I needed to include 1) lots of drop podding stuff and 2) an important number of scouts.

 

I've been reading several threads in this forum, and most advice against taking scouts for obvious reasons (lower WS/BS, 4+ save). But then I started to imagine how the scouts are portrayed in the fluff: as small infiltrating units that are there to sabotage key strategic assets so the main force can advance unhindered.

 

So instead of using scouts as a unit that guards an objective -for what the tactical squad is the superior choice IMHO- I started to think about scouts as alpha strikers that would hit enemy vehicles so the rest of the army can take care of the now exposed infantry inside.

 

Let's assume you got first turn, then a unit of 5 scouts with melta bombs (80 points total) would basically be able to hit a vehicle 18" away (somewhat more if Shrike is included):

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

- you'd hit the target automatically as it's the 1st turn and your opponent didn't move yet.

- the target's contents assault the scouts, smearing their innards all accross the battlefield :P

 

Same tactic could be done with scout bikes, with the added bonus that they can take a locator beacon so you can direct an anti-infantry drop pod to take care of the contents of that vehicle you just popped.

 

Has anybody tried using scouts like this before? Any ideas on how to make these units not a waste of points if you don't get first turn (possibly keeping them as outflankers to contest late in the game or something like that)? Or am I overlooking something (like usual ^_^ ) so this won't work.

[JamesI]

The problem is you have to be more than 18 inches away if you are in LOS. If hidden out of LOS, you will probably need to deal with difficult terrain to pull it off.

 

Now, if your list includes Shrike, you can infiltrate 18.1 inches away, scout up, move up, fleet and assault.

[Frosty the Pyro]

scout bikers generaly do it better.

[mowglie]

Three problems.

 

Let's assume you got first turn

 

There's #1

 

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

 

... done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

-- 40k rulebook, page 76, under the "Scouts" USR.

 

So after your movement you're not in your 6" assault. There's #2. Sorry.

 

You can do it with Shrike (6" move, fleet, 6" assault), Scout Bikers (12" move, 6" assault), or a LSS (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" assault).

 

Problem #3: Once your opponent wises up to your trick, he'll screen his tanks with infantry (especially IG players), preventing any of the above tricks working.

 

The LSS is best IMO because it has the best threat range. It can also be reserved for late-game objective grabbing.

 

I also prefer a Power Fist rather than Meltabombs. Lets you deal with a wider variety of targets - particularly heavy weapons carriers: lootas, devastators, long fangs, crisis suits, even the odd obliterator.

[greatcrusade08]

Scouts are very unique in terms of space marine tactics.

 

first turn assaults, i.e alpha strikes are really good, scouts on foot cant do it as suggested above, but with shrike, scout bikes or LSS can do it pretty well.

Of course alpha strikes only work if you get first turn, and then if your opponent steals initiative your cooked.

 

given the 50/50 chance of getting first turn, youd have to take units tha can perform a secondary role, should you not win first turn.. scout bikes and LSS are best as they can outflank (LSS can deepstrike).. the scout bikes have a charge range of 18", the LSS 20" which is a big area to threaten from a flank.

 

Sure shrike can outflank too, but scouts on foot are too slow to keep up.

 

Alpha strikes are great as grenades and meltabombs hit automatically, given this lovely fact i try to include untis that can perform this way if required.. however you should always try to support alpha strikers otherwise a single unit will get swallowed up without much thought.. this means taking units that can do damage from range and units that can infiltrate or more alpha strikers even!

 

when i build lists i always use mech MEQ as a yard stick, bearing in mind i use a theme aswell so my advice may not apply to everyone.

the idea of alpha strikers IMO is to cause as much disruption as possible, remove the enemies speed (transports) and leave them open to long range shooting and whatnot.

the perfect AV14 can opener is the following:

 

LSs with MM

5 scouts with combi-melta and meltabombs

 

this comes to 155 points, which is quite alot, a fist would be helpful for when you get counter charged, but only having 5 means they could get killed by shooting before you can use it.. i like to keep these units as cheap as possible to make them expendable.. i think of it in terms of 155 points well spent if i kill a raider, it has little to do with cost but wrecking your opponents game plans and making his deathstar unit footslog through incoming fire.

i also include t-fires, not only are these units fantastic in every way except survivability but if you wreck a vehicle and his marines disembark (all bunched up) 4 templates can cause multiple casualties..

ive won games simply becuase ive mashed up my opponent in turn one.

 

i also use

10 scout bikes with fist and 3 Grenade launchers, these puppies are mini t-fires and can kill mech at close range (6 S6 shots), the rule that lets you charge disembarking units is helpful too, gives the fist something to do..

taking ten means i can combat squad, the other day i used 5 with 3GL to get rear armour shots on a dread and the other 5 with fist to take out a vindy... aswell as my MM LSS taking out a raider all in turn one..

i love hearing those two little words.... "bloody scouts".. brings a smile to my lips

[Morgernstein]

Oops, i replied to the wrong topic. xD

 

i have a 10 man scout squad, 4 with cc weapons, seargent with powerfist and combi melta, and a sniper unit(split up into two combat squads)

 

the 5 CC scouts are mounted in a land speeder storm. so i have a maximum charge range of 41.9" first turn .9 becasue i keep it under 12" to make sure i can assault

[DarkGuard]

Three problems.

 

Let's assume you got first turn

 

There's #1

 

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

 

... done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

-- 40k rulebook, page 76, under the "Scouts" USR.

 

So after your movement you're not in your 6" assault. There's #2. Sorry.

 

You can do it with Shrike (6" move, fleet, 6" assault), Scout Bikers (12" move, 6" assault), or a LSS (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" assault).

 

Problem #3: Once your opponent wises up to your trick, he'll screen his tanks with infantry (especially IG players), preventing any of the above tricks working.

 

The LSS is best IMO because it has the best threat range. It can also be reserved for late-game objective grabbing.

 

I also prefer a Power Fist rather than Meltabombs. Lets you deal with a wider variety of targets - particularly heavy weapons carriers: lootas, devastators, long fangs, crisis suits, even the odd obliterator.

 

You're not factoring in the free movement from the scout USR, he is. Of course, you have to stay more than 12" away, so Shrike is either very desirable, or needed. Furthermore, moving through cover is easier for Scouts, but can still make it trickier to pull off. All your other points are very valid.

 

To the OP, listen closely to what GC08 says. I've read a couple of his Scout tacticas in the Librarium and they were very enlightening. For the sort of the role you want your Scouts to do, I'd say a combi-melta, possibly a power fist and a Land Speeder Storm with multi-melta would go a long way to ensuring that Land Raider never moves.

[Meatman]

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

 

... done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

-- 40k rulebook, page 76, under the "Scouts" USR.

 

So after your movement you're not in your 6" assault. There's #2. Sorry.

 

You can do it with Shrike (6" move, fleet, 6" assault), Scout Bikers (12" move, 6" assault), or a LSS (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" assault).

 

 

You're not factoring in the free movement from the scout USR, he is. Of course, you have to stay more than 12" away, so Shrike is either very desirable, or needed. Furthermore, moving through cover is easier for Scouts, but can still make it trickier to pull off. All your other points are very valid.

 

To the OP, listen closely to what GC08 says. I've read a couple of his Scout tacticas in the Librarium and they were very enlightening. For the sort of the role you want your Scouts to do, I'd say a combi-melta, possibly a power fist and a Land Speeder Storm with multi-melta would go a long way to ensuring that Land Raider never moves.

 

Erm, he kind of did point out that even with the scout move, you cannot do it.

 

Shrike is always desirable. (Not gay)

[DarkGuard]

Sorry then, my bad, must have read the post too bad. And Shrike is just awesome, how could anyone think he is undesirable?

[BackSplash]

Three problems.

 

Let's assume you got first turn

 

There's #1

 

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

 

... done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.

-- 40k rulebook, page 76, under the "Scouts" USR.

 

So after your movement you're not in your 6" assault. There's #2. Sorry.

 

You can do it with Shrike (6" move, fleet, 6" assault), Scout Bikers (12" move, 6" assault), or a LSS (12" move, 2" disembark, 6" assault).

 

Problem #3: Once your opponent wises up to your trick, he'll screen his tanks with infantry (especially IG players), preventing any of the above tricks working.

 

The LSS is best IMO because it has the best threat range. It can also be reserved for late-game objective grabbing.

 

I also prefer a Power Fist rather than Meltabombs. Lets you deal with a wider variety of targets - particularly heavy weapons carriers: lootas, devastators, long fangs, crisis suits, even the odd obliterator.

 

You're not factoring in the free movement from the scout USR, he is. Of course, you have to stay more than 12" away, so Shrike is either very desirable, or needed. Furthermore, moving through cover is easier for Scouts, but can still make it trickier to pull off. All your other points are very valid.

 

To the OP, listen closely to what GC08 says. I've read a couple of his Scout tacticas in the Librarium and they were very enlightening. For the sort of the role you want your Scouts to do, I'd say a combi-melta, possibly a power fist and a Land Speeder Storm with multi-melta would go a long way to ensuring that Land Raider never moves.

 

I agree with this post. I've heard this being done at the beginning of your turn with a landspeeder storm, in fact this move is the only reason I purchased one. The trick is the multi-meltas and meltabombs on the scouts they can be as generic as they come otherwise. Your basically throwing these scouts away so you have to make them count. (ie: LandRaider) The great thing about using the scouts in a storm is if you dont get the first turn you can hit them in the second. If your exceptionally lucky the armor will be holding a flank by itself, in which your scouts might actually survive. In this case it really is a my storm and marines cost X points= I am going for Y, Y cost blank points. Make sure you are getting your points worth. This is a great disruption tactic because if you do or dont blow their armor up, they still have to deal with the scouts who jumped out of the storm. This can disrupt a whole turn or two depending on how lucky those scouts are. This tactic will only work once before your enemy gets wise to it....but hey it is very entertaining while it lasts.

[captain sox]

I really enjoy playing Scouts, but I have changed things a bit... I use 3 Land Speeders. 2 are Typhoons with Melta. I find that the BS 3 of the Scouts Land Speeder Storm is a little risky. The other one is a Storm with HB and Combi-Flamer/PF Sergeant. If I need to, I'll put the 2 Typhoons in a Squad, and use a 2nd Storm

 

Land Speeders still fit into the Fluff too, as the Codex says they often support Recon and Scout missions.

 

:)

[Orphus]

I've been enjoying coming up with army lists lately, more specific army lists that represent the loyalist first founding chapters on the battlefield. Today I was trying to come up with a Ravenguard list, so I needed to include 1) lots of drop podding stuff and 2) an important number of scouts.

 

I've been reading several threads in this forum, and most advice against taking scouts for obvious reasons (lower WS/BS, 4+ save). But then I started to imagine how the scouts are portrayed in the fluff: as small infiltrating units that are there to sabotage key strategic assets so the main force can advance unhindered.

 

So instead of using scouts as a unit that guards an objective -for what the tactical squad is the superior choice IMHO- I started to think about scouts as alpha strikers that would hit enemy vehicles so the rest of the army can take care of the now exposed infantry inside.

 

Let's assume you got first turn, then a unit of 5 scouts with melta bombs (80 points total) would basically be able to hit a vehicle 18" away (somewhat more if Shrike is included):

- infiltrate 18" away from the target

- scout move up to 12" from target

- move 6" and charge 6"

- you'd hit the target automatically as it's the 1st turn and your opponent didn't move yet.

- the target's contents assault the scouts, smearing their innards all accross the battlefield :)

 

Same tactic could be done with scout bikes, with the added bonus that they can take a locator beacon so you can direct an anti-infantry drop pod to take care of the contents of that vehicle you just popped.

 

Has anybody tried using scouts like this before? Any ideas on how to make these units not a waste of points if you don't get first turn (possibly keeping them as outflankers to contest late in the game or something like that)? Or am I overlooking something (like usual :huh: ) so this won't work.

 

I use this tactic using scouts of a non IoM army but the effect is basically the same. it works fine but you only need one thing to go wrong for their sacrifice to be in vain so be careful :P . The tactics also work to take out some of those pesky long ranged units that can shred things if left alone *cough*Destroyers*cough* so if using this on squads drop some things to drop the points.

[DerekLee688]

This is great stuff. I got scouts from buying someone else's collection that have gone unused untill now. Now I have something to look forward to buying (scout bikes& LSS).

[Wildfire]

I'm amazed at the apparent love for the LSS. I'd never take the thing as it stands, my FA slots are always filled and there's just so much stuff better in the FA section than a transport for 5 scouts. Bikers, speeders, and especially attack bikes all top the list, but I'd even rate vanguard vets, assault marines, and maybe scout bikers above the LSS.

 

If the LSS was capable of holding 10 scouts, it'd be ok. If it was a dedicated transport, it would be good. If it was both a dedicated transport and capable of holding 10 scouts, I'd never take tacs. But as it is? No, never.

[DarkGuard]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the LSS. A melta LSS with a combi-melta Scout squad can reach out and destroy a tank before it has a chance to do anything. A MM/HF cannot do this. A heavy flamer LSS with combat Scouts can threaten backfield units early on, or it can outflank and come in to wipe an opponent of an objective. Tactical squads can still wipe people of objectives, but not in the same fashion. If you have the Fast Attack slot free and the points, I don't see any reason why not, although a melta combi-melta squad does cost more than two MM/HF, I suppose it matters as to whether you want the alpha strike and scoring unit, or just more versatility.

[Meatman]

I love the heavy flamer storm with combat or shotgun scouts. Those annoying cloaked units hiding on an objective? Heavy flamer to kill them, and the scouts to mop up.

 

The heavy flamer and the combat blades stop the BS3 being a problem. WS3 is still an issue but not so much unless you're up against WS7 or better.

And units that get assaulted the turn the scouts pile out of the storm have a -2 ld modifier, helping you sweeping advance easier.

 

 

 

Don't forget units that attempt to deepstrike within 6" can't use teleport homers or chaos icons or anything to revent scatter, and scatter 4D6". (BTW, does this work on descent of angels? As the wording is they scatter 4D6" rather then 2D6", but DoA only scatter 1D6" normally.) Move it flat out and stick it next to that lone chaos dude with the icon for fun times.

[greatcrusade08]

I'm amazed at the apparent love for the LSS. I'd never take the thing as it stands, my FA slots are always filled and there's just so much stuff better in the FA section than a transport for 5 scouts. Bikers, speeders, and especially attack bikes all top the list, but I'd even rate vanguard vets, assault marines, and maybe scout bikers above the LSS.

 

If the LSS was capable of holding 10 scouts, it'd be ok. If it was a dedicated transport, it would be good. If it was both a dedicated transport and capable of holding 10 scouts, I'd never take tacs. But as it is? No, never.

 

 

actually ill shock people here and say i understand where Wildfire is coming from.. some people play FA heavy and LSS do eat up a whole slot on thier own, you then have to add in the points for the scouts and it can get quite expensive.

his summary of the negative points are all true too..

 

all this being said, i love em, and always run one or two melta storms.. if only they were a 1-3 choice like BA sanguinary guard, id run 6 of them..

[Wildfire]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the LSS. A melta LSS with a combi-melta Scout squad can reach out and destroy a tank before it has a chance to do anything. A MM/HF cannot do this. A heavy flamer LSS with combat Scouts can threaten backfield units early on, or it can outflank and come in to wipe an opponent of an objective. Tactical squads can still wipe people of objectives, but not in the same fashion. If you have the Fast Attack slot free and the points, I don't see any reason why not, although a melta combi-melta squad does cost more than two MM/HF, I suppose it matters as to whether you want the alpha strike and scoring unit, or just more versatility.

 

First off, plenty of units can threaten a tank on the first turn, more reliably than a single combi-melta at bs3. Most of those units are also more resiliant than a LSS with scouts. Even when given a multi-melta on the LSS, the unit is still an inferior tankhunter IMO. But the key point is "If you have the Fast Attack slot free". I never have enough FA slots. I can't remember the last time I wrote a C:SM list that didn't have it's FA slots full. It's not that the LSS is completely useless, it's that it's inferior compared to other units that take up the same slots.

 

If, in the future, GW fixes it and makes it either a dedicated transport or able to carry a full squad, I'll take it. Heck, if they nerf some of the overwhelmingly good deals in FA (multi-melta attack bikes, I'm looking at you!), then I might reconsider. But in an area of the FOC that contains - in my opinion - the best anti-tank unit in the game, there's just too much other stuff that's got priority.

 

I like scouts, even now when they've been nerfed. With outflanking I think they're a decent assault unit. I even like the concept of the LSS. I'd LOVE to have a big squad of 10 ready to assault out of an open-topped transport. But 5 just won't cut it, especially when it uses up an FA slot. And honestly, I feel that the inclusion of a LSS makes any list weaker, as it stands now anyways.

 

all this being said, i love em, and always run one or two melta storms.. if only they were a 1-3 choice like BA sanguinary guard, id run 6 of them..

 

I'd probably be willing to try out a few if they worked this way (assuming you mean sanguinary priest, not sanguinary guard). Still skeptical about a 5-man scout squad's use, tho.

[greatcrusade08]

all this being said, i love em, and always run one or two melta storms.. if only they were a 1-3 choice like BA sanguinary guard, id run 6 of them..

 

I'd probably be willing to try out a few if they worked this way (assuming you mean sanguinary priest, not sanguinary guard). Still skeptical about a 5-man scout squad's use, tho.

 

Doh yeah meant priests

 

i cant agree more with your posts tbh.. i run all scouts and i struggle to fit the units i want as all the best stuff is FA.. ive recently dropped a LSS in favour of two typhoons, but i cant do any more without losing the theme to my lists...

id love to have ten man squads jumping from a speeder, that would be awesome.. the 5 man squads can be effective though, but against a seasoned opponent it can be hard to find the weak point to throw them at..

 

For tank hunting, they are a throw away unit, so to factor in costs and KPs youd need to take down a land raider or take on a squadron of leman russes or something.. i hate toi use the phrase "get your points back".. but throw away units are only good if they do the job.

 

the dual flamer builds can be quite tasty, again 5 man squads are delicate, but if you outflank you can play the bully or take on a sniper unit or something.

[DarkGuard]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the LSS. A melta LSS with a combi-melta Scout squad can reach out and destroy a tank before it has a chance to do anything. A MM/HF cannot do this. A heavy flamer LSS with combat Scouts can threaten backfield units early on, or it can outflank and come in to wipe an opponent of an objective. Tactical squads can still wipe people of objectives, but not in the same fashion. If you have the Fast Attack slot free and the points, I don't see any reason why not, although a melta combi-melta squad does cost more than two MM/HF, I suppose it matters as to whether you want the alpha strike and scoring unit, or just more versatility.

 

First off, plenty of units can threaten a tank on the first turn, more reliably than a single combi-melta at bs3. Most of those units are also more resiliant than a LSS with scouts. Even when given a multi-melta on the LSS, the unit is still an inferior tankhunter IMO. But the key point is "If you have the Fast Attack slot free". I never have enough FA slots. I can't remember the last time I wrote a C:SM list that didn't have it's FA slots full. It's not that the LSS is completely useless, it's that it's inferior compared to other units that take up the same slots.

 

If, in the future, GW fixes it and makes it either a dedicated transport or able to carry a full squad, I'll take it. Heck, if they nerf some of the overwhelmingly good deals in FA (multi-melta attack bikes, I'm looking at you!), then I might reconsider. But in an area of the FOC that contains - in my opinion - the best anti-tank unit in the game, there's just too much other stuff that's got priority.

 

I like scouts, even now when they've been nerfed. With outflanking I think they're a decent assault unit. I even like the concept of the LSS. I'd LOVE to have a big squad of 10 ready to assault out of an open-topped transport. But 5 just won't cut it, especially when it uses up an FA slot. And honestly, I feel that the inclusion of a LSS makes any list weaker, as it stands now anyways.

 

Sorry I should have clarified that better, rather its one of the only things we have that can threaten AV14, maybe AV13 first turn. Rifleman dreads can't touch AV14, Typhoons struggle, and both aren't amazing against AV13 (Typhoons are better though). Of course, you can always use Dreads in pods, or Sternguard in pods, as you say yourself, it comes down to what slots you have left.

 

MM/HF speeders, however, cannot threaten LRs first turn when they haven't moved, unless its in Spearhead and both have deployed very far forward. Also, you haven't just got the BS3 multi-melta, you've also got the BS4 combi-melta, plus meltabombs for AV14, or krak grenades and a fist for everything else which normally has rear armour 10. It just costs us a few more points and two slots, one of which as you have rightly stated is hotly contested in most lists.

 

However, I myself find it easy to get free FA slots, with my preferring Rifleman dreads over Typhoons at the moment I find I have at least one, and maybe two FA slots free if I squadron my MM/HF speeders.

 

I do agree with you though on transport capacity. If you could fit 10 men in then it would be more effective. However, I feel it would cease to be a stealth vehicle, and looking at the model I don't think 10 men could fit in there, I'm surprised 5 guys get in there comfortably .

[Sirex1]

I really don't get it with the space marine players love for killing of their units as fast as possible as their combat tactics.

Space Marine, tactical geniueses everyone, servers for scout decades, then assault and devestorsa, learn every tactic their is for every situation, finally becomes tactical marines, server the chapter trustworthy in countless battles, becomes captain of the company, main tactic when facing the enemy: suicide units.

What?

 

Suicide scout, suicide dread, suicide drop pod, hell we are not picky are we? Just aslong as some of our troops are 100% guaranteed to die we are happy.

Why not try to use tactics that is based on that your units should survive?

[greatcrusade08]

I really don't get it with the space marine players love for killing of their units as fast as possible as their combat tactics.

Space Marine, tactical geniueses everyone, servers for scout decades, then assault and devestorsa, learn every tactic their is for every situation, finally becomes tactical marines, server the chapter trustworthy in countless battles, becomes captain of the company, main tactic when facing the enemy: suicide units.

What?

 

Suicide scout, suicide dread, suicide drop pod, hell we are not picky are we? Just aslong as some of our troops are 100% guaranteed to die we are happy.

Why not try to use tactics that is based on that your units should survive?

 

trouble is your mixing your metaphors here somewhat.. its a game and you cant apply real life or fluff standards to it..

in certain cases 'suicide' units are extremely effective..

 

point in case is dealing with enemy transports, whatever your "reach out and touch them" units are for dealing with these things, chances are they will be out on a limb after they have completed thier mission.. drop podded dreads, speeders, scoutrs or whatever.. they will get smooshed as a result of completing thier mission.

You cant apply the tactic of survival becuase in most cases your opponents first response is to deal with the units that just killed his main vehicles.

moreover in a game such as this your priority has to be to kill the enemy before he kills you.. the only thing you can truelly control is your own turn and its very difficult to keep units alive if your opponent decides its time for them to die.

 

in short, suicide units are a viable tactic and given 40k is just an advanced form of chess you should always be willing to sacrifice everything in order to win the game.

 

also since melta is the best form of anti-tank, and melta is short range, you have to get in close to use it.. hence most units that are chosen for this mission become high priority targets for your opponent.

melta platforms = fire magnets

[Wildfire]

It's probably partly a question of metagame. I just don't see that many landraiders around, so I rarely worry much about close-range melta.

 

I probably use multi-melta attack bikes twice as much as everything else in fast attack combined. That's including all manner of landspeeders. For me, multi-melta attack bikes are where it's at. My lists often have every FA slot full of them. But I also use them at range very often (meaning 13"-24"), as they have the mobility to get side armor and S8 vs. AV11 is not bad, and with AP1 they get that all-important bonus to destroy stuff (the biggest advantage to melta, IMO).

 

Also, I'd certainly use the LSS if it was a dedicated transport. It's about as good as a razorback, after all! And god help us if the LSS ever becomes a dedicated transport AND holds 10 men, all you'll ever see will be scout assault armies!