Razor Backs, Tactical Squads, and Combat Squad

[Leardinal]

Hey all.

 

I have seen the various topics of using small RAS' to get cheep razor backs, but I am not sure a 5 or 6 man RAS can do anything then make the Razor Back a scoring unit. Then I thought of Tactical Squads. I had pushed them to the back of my mind since I could take RAS' as troops, but since I am taking another look at vehicles I also decided to take another look at Tac squads.

 

I thought about combat squading the 10 man tac, leaving the heavy weapon behind and having the Serge and special weapon in the Razor Back. Are these effective? Half a Tac squad can still put out quite a bit of bolter fire, and the heavy weapon can hit other targets that most of the squad wouldn't have range for/strength to crack, but they are still five man squads and the heavy weapon only has Ld 8. Do the pro's outweigh the con's? What are your experiences?

[tahrikmili]

This is a suboptimal use of the Tactical Squad. One heavy weapon by itself will do little damage, you will have 4 Bolters doing nothing, and 5 sub-par assault guys trying to bash something on the head.

 

Keep them together. Either put them all in a Rhino and try to hold a mid-table objective or sit back and let the enemy come to you and give it your full Bolter barrage.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Strange as it seems I just don't see the point in Razorbacks for Tactical Squads. I'm even struggling with why you'd bother giving them a Rhino either. Paying full price for a fast transport just rubs me the wrong way when I can get a 5 man RAS one with a 35 point discount.

 

Even if you measure point for point the RAS-5 in a basic Razorback is better armed and more useful once it gets where it's going than a TAC-5 in the same vehicle. After all for the same 145 points; the RAS-5 (100) can have the Razorback (20), a Power Axe (15) and a Melta Gun (10). Not exactly a tough choice is it? And tahrikmili is completely correct when he said that having half a squad waste it's time and be nothing but a meat shield for a single gun is pointless.

[Morticon]

Hey all.

 

I have seen the various topics of using small RAS' to get cheep razor backs, but I am not sure a 5 or 6 man RAS can do anything then make the Razor Back a scoring unit. Then I thought of Tactical Squads. I had pushed them to the back of my mind since I could take RAS' as troops, but since I am taking another look at vehicles I also decided to take another look at Tac squads.

 

I thought about combat squading the 10 man tac, leaving the heavy weapon behind and having the Serge and special weapon in the Razor Back. Are these effective? Half a Tac squad can still put out quite a bit of bolter fire, and the heavy weapon can hit other targets that most of the squad wouldn't have range for/strength to crack, but they are still five man squads and the heavy weapon only has Ld 8. Do the pro's outweigh the con's? What are your experiences?

 

I played in a veterans tourney earlier this year (came 2nd) and was using the above mentioned unit.

 

10 Man Tac, PF, MG, LC

TLLC- Razor

300 points.

 

I split it every mission so corbs could get a ride (except for one where I was more shooty than the opponent and it was a KP mish, so I just deployed out and waited).

 

This configuration gave me two lascannon in two units (ie: two threats).

It gave me a unit to sit back on home plate while the rest of the BA did what theyre supposed to - get up in the opponents grill.

It also gave me a decent sacrificial or support unit depending on the situation- again tactical flexibility.

 

But, a unit like this cannot go unsupported, and should not be considered near your main point of attack, rather the dudes that come in after the hard hitters have done the business.

 

In my experience the las team at the back survives till the end, thanks to the rest of your army being MUCH more of a threat. Alternatively he has to invest resources in takign care of it, which means your main force gets off lighter.

 

The pros outweighed the cons for me in that case - but only because I had the army build to back it up.

So, in my opinion, its a great unit if you build to support it and have it support your build!

[Morticon]

Strange as it seems I just don't see the point in Razorbacks for Tactical Squads. I'm even struggling with why you'd bother giving them a Rhino either. Paying full price for a fast transport just rubs me the wrong way when I can get a 5 man RAS one with a 35 point discount.

 

Even if you measure point for point the RAS-5 in a basic Razorback is better armed and more useful once it gets where it's going than a TAC-5 in the same vehicle. After all for the same 145 points; the RAS-5 (100) can have the Razorback (20), a Power Axe (15) and a Melta Gun (10). Not exactly a tough choice is it? And tahrikmili is completely correct when he said that having half a squad waste it's time and be nothing but a meat shield for a single gun is pointless.

 

 

Dont work it out at 5man limits- work it out at 10man.

 

2x5man RAS in heavy razorbacks with zero upgrades put you at 310 points and 4 KPs (two of em easy).

1x10man TAC in heavy razorback with lascannon, melta and fist puts you in at 300 points and between 2 and 3 KPs.

Add the same specials to the RAS and you now have an 80 point increase.

 

RAS razor discounts only work with 5men. (im assuming you're not doing 10man RAS since that will also put you at a more expensive premium and you will have half a squad unable to do anything).

 

 

And you're not paying the points for a meat shield for a gun, youre paying points for a unit that has a dedicated job - claiming. Its secondary purpose is to throw out a las shot each turn

 

Assault squads are there for fighting. You want them up. Whats the purpose of having a razorback filled with 125 points worth of guys (5man - melta, pw) that is just sitting at the back shooting? Its a waste of your 125 points.

What then happens if your razorback pops when you're at the back- what do the assaults do? Run towards the enemy and support?

Nah, theyre a 125points worth of scoring bases.

[Leardinal]

Thanks for the replies.

 

@Brother_Dan'l: Morticon Made my point. I was looking at tac's because I didn't want to have a unit that just sat in a tank when what they want to do is tear things apart with chain sword. A Tac squad can jump out and unleash a withering hail of rapid fire bolters supported by a heavy weapon and a tank while a RAS would jump out and shoot pistols at the much stronger mass of enemies. Plus, The other half of the Tac squad helps provide much need long range in my theoretical lists.

 

@Morticon: When compared like that, the Tac squad does seem more appealing. I am still concerned with the Ld 8 heavy weapon half of the squad, but they do seem much less of a threat when compared to almost anything else in the army. Also, maybe the lascannons will actually be able to destroy something if I take two tac squads.

 

Edit: oops, didn't see that one

@tahrikmili: If you keep it together, then you are losing out on some facet anyway. True, if it was one big squad you have a lot of bodies before giving up the Heavy Weapon, special weapon, or power fist, but then you are paying 195+ for a squad with one heavy weapon, or a squad of bolters that has a heavy weapon, but never sits still to use it an the rhino can't provide support like the Razor Back can. I wouldn't be using the Sergent half to assault unless it looks like it could do some damage, instead it would be providing bolter fire to RAS targets to soften them up and adding a melta shot at some poor unsuspecting tank.

 

Besides, if you run two tac squads, then you have 2 heavy weapons teams and two heavy weapons on the razor backs that can all support each other just as the sergeant halves will be supporting each other.

[Brother_Dan'l]

@Brother_Dan'l: Morticon Made my point. I was looking at tac's because I didn't want to have a unit that just sat in a tank when what they want to do is tear things apart with chain sword. A Tac squad can jump out and unleash a withering hail of rapid fire bolters supported by a heavy weapon and a tank while a RAS would jump out and shoot pistols at the much stronger mass of enemies. Plus, The other half of the Tac squad helps provide much need long range in my theoretical lists.

But that's part of my point. It doesn't seem logical to put half a Tactical Squad in a Razorback to send at the enemy when the RAS is so much better at the job. It would seem to me that the way to handle your lack of LR fire is with Devastators. As they get their HW cheaper and can be a 5 man with 2 guns aren't they a better choice? Unless we are purely considering a scoring unit that can split and still provide supporting fire while holding your home objective? But the need for that type of squad is very limited as it only applies in one of the 3 missions.

[Leardinal]

@Brother_Dan'l: The way I look at it, you can put the RAS in the razor back and drive it up to enemy lines, then wait a turn while everything a 5 man RAS would want to assualt runs away, or drive the 1/2 Tac squad up, drop out sooner and father away, blast away with bolters while support comes from a very cheap lascannon.

 

If you try to do the same with devs, you pay more for the lascannon and no special weapon, plus the non scoring unit, though I personally am not worried about that.

Tac breakdown:

10 Man squad,

lascannon

melta gun

for the power fist

Razor Back with TLLC

 

300pts total. Can combat squad to get rapid fire weapons up there while keeping Heavy weapon for long range fire support used in addition to TLLC on Razor Back

 

Dev Breakdown (Same as tac strategy)

10 Man squad

lascannon

power fist

Razor Back with TLLC

 

310+ pts total, no special weapon, not scoring

 

Dev Breakdown (as devs)

5 Man Squad

lascannon

power fist

 

140+ pts for a 5 man squad that if you fill with Lascannons will shed a lascannon at every wound, loses the short range fire support for the RAS squads, if you fill it up with bullet catchers it gets even more exspensive and no tank to help draw fire/provide cover for RAS squads

 

Edit: Removed individual points

[Crynn]

Strange as it seems I just don't see the point in Razorbacks for Tactical Squads. I'm even struggling with why you'd bother giving them a Rhino either. Paying full price for a fast transport just rubs me the wrong way when I can get a 5 man RAS one with a 35 point discount.

 

Even if you measure point for point the RAS-5 in a basic Razorback is better armed and more useful once it gets where it's going than a TAC-5 in the same vehicle. After all for the same 145 points; the RAS-5 (100) can have the Razorback (20), a Power Axe (15) and a Melta Gun (10). Not exactly a tough choice is it? And tahrikmili is completely correct when he said that having half a squad waste it's time and be nothing but a meat shield for a single gun is pointless.

 

 

Dont work it out at 5man limits- work it out at 10man.

 

2x5man RAS in heavy razorbacks with zero upgrades put you at 310 points and 4 KPs (two of em easy).

1x10man TAC in heavy razorback with lascannon, melta and fist puts you in at 300 points and between 2 and 3 KPs.

Add the same specials to the RAS and you now have an 80 point increase.

 

RAS razor discounts only work with 5men. (im assuming you're not doing 10man RAS since that will also put you at a more expensive premium and you will have half a squad unable to do anything).

 

 

And you're not paying the points for a meat shield for a gun, youre paying points for a unit that has a dedicated job - claiming. Its secondary purpose is to throw out a las shot each turn

 

Assault squads are there for fighting. You want them up. Whats the purpose of having a razorback filled with 125 points worth of guys (5man - melta, pw) that is just sitting at the back shooting? Its a waste of your 125 points.

What then happens if your razorback pops when you're at the back- what do the assaults do? Run towards the enemy and support?

Nah, theyre a 125points worth of scoring bases.

 

I 100% agree with this

 

If you only have assault squads what will stay on your point in your deployment in 2 out of the 3 missions? Your looking at it the worng way. Yes at 5 man lvl the tac is horrible but at 10 man while it isnt quite as killy as the assault squad it can hold an objective and spit out a lascannon as a bonus an assault squad will just sit there and do nothing, that lascannon shot helps me all the time veresus hard armies like guard where all it has to do is shake let alone kil a vendetta to be invaluable in helping my army. Tacs aren't the greatest objective campers and I don't believe they do much dmg for their cost however when it comes to sitting on objectives they are the best we have, I never leave a game over 1200 without one 10 man squad of these boys.

 

My personal setup comes in at 270pts and does me well.

 

10 marines

Sargant with fist and combi melta

melta

lascannon

Rhino

 

The lascannon and 4 marines take an objective and annoy light vehicles the rhino drives forward smokes and provides cover for my more important vindicators honor guard etc, and most of the time just gets ignored because it only carries tacs. then 2nd turn they unleast 2 melta shots and generally pop anything from a dread to a landraider. In killpoint missions they stay together and bog down a mc or something with a hidden fist in 10 guys they can without too much luck take town trygons after firing 2 meltas into them first. They are also only 2 kill points to the assault squad double razorbacks 4 in that mission. Don't get me wrong i love RAS' in razorbacks but I find you need 1 tac squad in a reasonable sized game

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Leardinal]

@Crynn: Your set up makes sense, especially taking advantage of the fire point and most enemies view on tacs. When I initially read your post and saw "rhino," I thought you where going to have the whole squad in the rhino. Then you mentioned you would leave the heavy weapons to camp and the first thing that popped into my mind was: "why have the rhino then? A razor back is only 5pts more." Then I finally read how you use the fire points for you meltas, and I mus applaud your strategy, because in no way, shape, or form would I have expected that.

 

All that being said, however, I must point out that it is a one trick pony: after you use this once on an opponent they will most likely expect the rhino to have the meltas in it, and have one or two squads shoot at it instead of the rest of your army, so it is doesn't draw much fire.

 

The tactic is good for someone who doesn't expect it or doesn't care if they lose a tank, but otherwise a razor back would be a better choice of transport. Even you don't combat squad and just use them as a tar pit, the razor back would still do better as it can provide fire support, be it TLLC or TLHB.

[Wildfire]

Please remember that individual point costs are prohibited by the board rules.

[Crynn]

@Crynn: Your set up makes sense, especially taking advantage of the fire point and most enemies view on tacs. When I initially read your post and saw "rhino," I thought you where going to have the whole squad in the rhino. Then you mentioned you would leave the heavy weapons to camp and the first thing that popped into my mind was: "why have the rhino then? A razor back is only 5pts more." Then I finally read how you use the fire points for you meltas, and I mus applaud your strategy, because in no way, shape, or form would I have expected that.

 

All that being said, however, I must point out that it is a one trick pony: after you use this once on an opponent they will most likely expect the rhino to have the meltas in it, and have one or two squads shoot at it instead of the rest of your army, so it is doesn't draw much fire.

 

The tactic is good for someone who doesn't expect it or doesn't care if they lose a tank, but otherwise a razor back would be a better choice of transport. Even you don't combat squad and just use them as a tar pit, the razor back would still do better as it can provide fire support, be it TLLC or TLHB.

 

Thank you for tht rather lovely response. A couple of things I'd like to add to explain my reasoning in not taking the razorback for them.

 

Firstly if it isnt destroyed I will more than happily role around shooting out just the 1 melta after i've fired off after the combi, but that is not always the case. Other times they will disembark and use the fist if such a circumstance arrises where that will do the trick, tau battlesuits you get the idea. The main reason. I play quite a competitive style of 40k as do some of the players around me so in kp missions i like to keep all 10 tacs in the transport against some opponents as I have a rule that everything in my army has to be capable of moving at least 12" a turn so that my army can move re-deploy and fire every turn. That way against assault armies I can generally just shoot them to bits without leaving behind stragglers that become easy pickings. I find this works very well with the BA codex.

 

This becomes more important when I verse my friends 'Fatecrusher list' it is hard as nails and is a pain in the arse. He has fiends fate weaver damon princes and of course heaps of blood crushers. A BA army can never take a fatecrusher army on in just straight out combat so I really have to wittle him down killing his faster units and just ignoring the blood crushers untill i think I can fight him. So kill princes, fiends, I've found there is no point going for fate weaver in most cases, trying to put an everage of 27 wounds on him just means that all his fiends catch me!!! AHH I hate fiends with fate weaver! So this is my reasoning behind the rhino even when im not just using it as a melta platform. I can fit all my marines and leave none behind. Oh one more thing, against some opponents i need to transport the 10 marines as a fist tarpit, I do this not too often but if there is an MC or something that I can't be bothered dealing with right away 2 melta shots and a 10 man tac tie up out of a rhino helps, so I need that transport space.

 

Hope that fills in some holes with the use of my rhino, and thanks for the comment

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

Edit: 1 Quick thing to add. I lvoe razorbacks and use them with my army as well. If someone blows up that rhino with smoke on it im never usually fussed about it as as long as those marines are in rapid fire range or melta range now and that rhino has absorbed some anti tank fire that would have gone into my baal auto/las pred or one of my 2 vinids then it has done its job for me.