Vanguard Vets and Storm Shields

[Chalkydri]

I've seen a number of army lists utilizing Vanguard Vets and Storm Shields, and to be honest, it's got me scratching my head a bit.

 

VV look like a great choice in a BA list, especially in an all jump pack or drop podding army as Descent of Angels and Heroic Intervention allows them to pretty reliably engage targets the moment they drop. I see them targeting heavy weapons squads, devastators, broadsides and the like. That is, the dangerous shoot-y elements of an opposing army that can reek havoc on the above mentioned BA builds.

 

But what are people using them against that warrants storm shields? I look at the price of the storm shield and even a minimized 5-man squad, only armed with a couple of these gets pretty pricey pretty quickly. It's also a lot of points to pump into a single wound model that dies just as easily as any marine to small arms fire and basic close combat weapons where that shield is just an expensive paper weight.

 

What kind of units are people sending their VV against that requires such a pricey upgrade?

 

Any insight you might have to offer is greatly appreciated!

[LordofDeath11]

I see what you're saying, but from what I've read a lot of people also(or solely) like to use their VGV's to throw up against enemy Death Star units-either to tie them up, or even win combat in some cases.

 

I do understand your perplexment regarding the logic of decking a squad out with expensive shields and then throwing them into combat with standard close combat units such as devastator's though. I think some of it has to do with increasing their survivablity from enemy fire post heroic intervention slaughter.

[Khavos]

But what are people using them against that warrants storm shields?

 

Enemy rock units that you don't want to get the charge on your vulnerable just-deepstruck jumpers who have to sit there for a turn before they can assault.

 

Also pretty useful for when your VV mulch a dangerous shooty unit and are left wide open for the enemy's shooting phase. Won't help against weight of fire, but it'll prevent them from taking a plasma template or two and simply being done.

 

Edit: Also can be worth it if you're running a Sanguinor list, which not a lot of people do. I, for example, will be making use of a 310 point VV squad: Glaive Encarmine on the Sergeant, 4 Lightning Claws, 4 Storm Shields, Melta Bombs. Expensive for a five-man unit? Absolutely. But the Sanguinor turns the Glaive Encarmine-armed Sergeant into a WS5, I5, A3, two-wound model that can't be individually targeted and can assault the turn he drops - with his four LC/SS armed buddies. If they happen to drop in a Sanguinary Priest bubble, it'll be...well, I expect great things from that squad.

[Adam_R]

I could be wrong here Khavos, but isnt the Sanguinor's blessing randomly gifted to a veteran sgt at the start of each game?

[Khavos]

I could be wrong here Khavos, but isnt the Sanguinor's blessing randomly gifted to a veteran sgt at the start of each game?

 

It does say "randomly choose," though the method of choosing isn't specified. I've yet to actually field the list, but a buddy of mine who uses something similar has never had anyone, including other BA players, suggest he actually had to roll dice or something to figure out which sergeant got it. He just picks on the assumption that "randomly choose" was a bit of an editorial device to make the entry more wordy, as all other "random" game mechanics are spelled out.

 

Though that's an interesting rules question. If it does have to be a truly random choice, changes my particular strategy a bit, but still doesn't make VV with Storm Shields any less worth it in my book.

[LordofDeath11]

I could be wrong here Khavos, but isnt the Sanguinor's blessing randomly gifted to a veteran sgt at the start of each game?

 

It does say "randomly choose," though the method of choosing isn't specified. I've yet to actually field the list, but a buddy of mine who uses something similar has never had anyone, including other BA players, suggest he actually had to roll dice or something to figure out which sergeant got it. He just picks on the assumption that "randomly choose" was a bit of an editorial device to make the entry more wordy, as all other "random" game mechanics are spelled out.

 

Though that's an interesting rules question. If it does have to be a truly random choice, changes my particular strategy a bit, but still doesn't make VV with Storm Shields any less worth it in my book.

 

Fluff-wise I'd assume that the Sanguinor conciously chooses the Sergeant he blesses. I doubt he just closes his eyes, spins around five times and just points.

 

...or maybe he does 'Ennie-meenie-miney-moe'.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It isn't a VV specific thing. You just want a stormshield or two in any CC unit that can take it on regular guys (non sergeants.) This is because the number 1 killer of marines is power fists and low AP weapons. If your VV heroic intervene onto, say, a tactical squad, the powerfist sergeant will be averaging more wounds than the rest of the squad combined. Unless you save it on a storm shield.

[Morollan]

It does say "randomly choose," though the method of choosing isn't specified. I've yet to actually field the list, but a buddy of mine who uses something similar has never had anyone, including other BA players, suggest he actually had to roll dice or something to figure out which sergeant got it. He just picks on the assumption that "randomly choose" was a bit of an editorial device to make the entry more wordy, as all other "random" game mechanics are spelled out.

 

Though that's an interesting rules question. If it does have to be a truly random choice, changes my particular strategy a bit, but still doesn't make VV with Storm Shields any less worth it in my book.

 

Of course it has to be a random choice, that's why the word random is in the rule. Picking the sergeant yourself is not in any way random and your buddy is therefore cheating.

[Khavos]

Of course it has to be a random choice, that's why the word random is in the rule. Picking the sergeant yourself is not in any way random and your buddy is therefore cheating.

 

How would you randomly pick the sergeant?

 

Say you have five of them.

 

Edit: Actually, so as not to hijack this thread, I posted the question over in the Rules forum.

[Ranwulf]

I could be wrong here Khavos, but isnt the Sanguinor's blessing randomly gifted to a veteran sgt at the start of each game?

 

It does say "randomly choose," though the method of choosing isn't specified. I've yet to actually field the list, but a buddy of mine who uses something similar has never had anyone, including other BA players, suggest he actually had to roll dice or something to figure out which sergeant got it. He just picks on the assumption that "randomly choose" was a bit of an editorial device to make the entry more wordy, as all other "random" game mechanics are spelled out.

 

Though that's an interesting rules question. If it does have to be a truly random choice, changes my particular strategy a bit, but still doesn't make VV with Storm Shields any less worth it in my book.

 

Fluff-wise I'd assume that the Sanguinor conciously chooses the Sergeant he blesses. I doubt he just closes his eyes, spins around five times and just points.

 

...or maybe he does 'Ennie-meenie-miney-moe'.

 

LOL

;)

 

Ran

[Spam Monkey]

I would lay them out 1-5. Roll a d6. if six is rolled, roll again.

And I think random means roll.

[GlauG]

I find that even a single Storm Shield can make a massive difference... Especially against things like Rapid-fired Plasma Guns from a squad of Grey Hunters or Guard Vets, or even the humble Krak Missile. My VV run with at least one, two if I have the points, and I'd give one to every single Assault Sergeant if I had points spare. As it stands, I at least give one to the 10-man RAS I tend to attach my ICs to, especially if any of them have a 4+ Invun from an Iron Halo, Rosarius etc. Anything that would be Instant Death goes on the Storm Shield first!

[Crynn]

But what are people using them against that warrants storm shields?

 

Enemy rock units that you don't want to get the charge on your vulnerable just-deepstruck jumpers who have to sit there for a turn before they can assault.

 

Also pretty useful for when your VV mulch a dangerous shooty unit and are left wide open for the enemy's shooting phase. Won't help against weight of fire, but it'll prevent them from taking a plasma template or two and simply being done.

 

Edit: Also can be worth it if you're running a Sanguinor list, which not a lot of people do. I, for example, will be making use of a 310 point VV squad: Glaive Encarmine on the Sergeant, 4 Lightning Claws, 4 Storm Shields, Melta Bombs. Expensive for a five-man unit? Absolutely. But the Sanguinor turns the Glaive Encarmine-armed Sergeant into a WS5, I5, A3, two-wound model that can't be individually targeted and can assault the turn he drops - with his four LC/SS armed buddies. If they happen to drop in a Sanguinary Priest bubble, it'll be...well, I expect great things from that squad.

 

lol on the glaive encarmine on the sargant, you do realize considering you haven't given the sargant any other equipment it's actually worse than a power weapon.

 

On to the sanguinors blessing, it is random. I believe it may have even been FAQ'ed but either way with rules lawyering alone the word randomly will take 'precedent' over 'choose' just because of the sentence construction so while it does not specify how you should do it randomly it must be random, although I do agree that is stupid.

 

As for the storm shields on vanguard I see what people are trying to do but I don't believe it is worth the points as anyone seing storm shields with just use forced saves based weaponary instead although if you slam them into a DS unit to kill or hold it up that's a different story however I still see this as too risky expensive and not necessarily going to get the job done, thats just my opinion though as I havent played with that style of VV before.

 

Regards

Crynn

[Joasht]

My Deathstar since back in 3rd ed was always the Lightning Claw/Storm Shield combo, which although expensive (and I rarely take it nowadays), the Storm Shield provides cannon fodder against power weapon-typed attacks with a chance of making it out alive. Originally I designed the squad for facing Howling Banshees, which back in 3rd ed were quite scary since back then you could charge out of a moving Wave Serpent, giving them an unholy threat range.

[calgaryBA]

I just played a game vs some Tao and used a 6 man squad of Vanguard Vets, they saved the game and forced a draw. It was purely because of the storm shields allowing them to soak up an entire army of Tao shooting at them for 2 turns.

 

Sgt: TH/SS

Vet1: LC/SS

Vet2: LC/SS

Vet3: LC/SS

Vet4: PW/infernos pistol

Vet5: BP/CCW

 

It was a pitched battle with little cover and we rolled for Capture and Control. The tao player had 4 squads of fire warriors, and a pile of other crap with AP1 and AP2 weapons. Just a massive anti-marine force.

 

Needless to say my army was decimated by shooting very fast. Mephiston failed 2 psych tests on his first turn, one being a perils, but still managed to charge, he missed 4/5 attacks, then rolled a 1 to wound, and was stuck in combat for 2 turns failing on such a grand scale before he decided to hit with everything and wound with everything at the very worst possible time, allowing him to be shot to hell right after.

 

My baal didn't last more than turn 2 and my vindicator lost it's cannon right off the bat even with cover. One assault squad made it to the other players base, missed the melta shots on a hammerhead with no weapon left, then were tank shocked 18 inches back, into the line of fire of everybody. My other assault squad made it to the base, but was actually doing miserable in combat vs a plain old fire warrior squad, even with a priest. etc... etc...

 

The only thing that saved the day was my vanguard vet's, blowing up another fire warrior squad on his base with heroic intervention, then his other hammerhead next turn, then proceeded to fly towards the rest of his army. They rolled double 1's to attack into area terrain so it was a failed charge. They soaked up incredible amounts of fire power from every unit in his army other than the fire warrior squad in combat with my assault squad in his base, for 2 turns thanks to the storm shields. Thus allowing my assault squad to barely win combat and secure his base. It would have been a win, but he rolled a 6 for moving through terrain, then another 6 for running within 3 inches of my base lol.

 

I'm pretty new to using the VV with SS's in games, but it's paying off big time every game so far.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sure the shields are expensive but that in and of itself does not mean it's not viable. How many units in the game can do this and have HI & DoA to boot? I wouldn't class the squad as a death star but they are highly resilient and can consistently snipe units such as Long Fangs. All these combinations are what make the unit viable, nothing else has all these powerful attributes. They are also great for providing a cover save for other units since they can shrug off lascannons, meltas and plasma. The majority of the time they will be able to assault an enemy unit the turn they arrive and that is what they are best at doing. As pointed out even one stormshield is pretty awesome as it can soak single low ap shots from unit after unit from squads such as tactical Marines. If you have a squad full of stormshields then it's just that much better. Most people won't do it because they think it's too many points for one unit but that in and of itself doesn't mean it's so. It should also be pointed out that stormshields mean you don't have to worry so much about taking difficult terrain tests.

 

0b ;)

[Crynn]

I just played a game vs some Tao and used a 6 man squad of Vanguard Vets, they saved the game and forced a draw. It was purely because of the storm shields allowing them to soak up an entire army of Tao shooting at them for 2 turns.

 

Sgt: TH/SS

Vet1: LC/SS

Vet2: LC/SS

Vet3: LC/SS

Vet4: PW/infernos pistol

Vet5: BP/CCW

 

It was a pitched battle with little cover and we rolled for Capture and Control. The tao player had 4 squads of fire warriors, and a pile of other crap with AP1 and AP2 weapons. Just a massive anti-marine force.

 

Needless to say my army was decimated by shooting very fast. Mephiston failed 2 psych tests on his first turn, one being a perils, but still managed to charge, he missed 4/5 attacks, then rolled a 1 to wound, and was stuck in combat for 2 turns failing on such a grand scale before he decided to hit with everything and wound with everything at the very worst possible time, allowing him to be shot to hell right after.

 

My baal didn't last more than turn 2 and my vindicator lost it's cannon right off the bat even with cover. One assault squad made it to the other players base, missed the melta shots on a hammerhead with no weapon left, then were tank shocked 18 inches back, into the line of fire of everybody. My other assault squad made it to the base, but was actually doing miserable in combat vs a plain old fire warrior squad, even with a priest. etc... etc...

 

The only thing that saved the day was my vanguard vet's, blowing up another fire warrior squad on his base with heroic intervention, then his other hammerhead next turn, then proceeded to fly towards the rest of his army. They rolled double 1's to attack into area terrain so it was a failed charge. They soaked up incredible amounts of fire power from every unit in his army other than the fire warrior squad in combat with my assault squad in his base, for 2 turns thanks to the storm shields. Thus allowing my assault squad to barely win combat and secure his base. It would have been a win, but he rolled a 6 for moving through terrain, then another 6 for running within 3 inches of my base lol.

 

I'm pretty new to using the VV with SS's in games, but it's paying off big time every game so far.

 

Either you were incredibly lucky or that tau player was bad with his force, to kill that 300 point+ unit of your all he needed to do was cause 15 wounds with pulse rifles which would have been in rapid fire range to kill you maybe slightly more with wound allocation but my point is that is retartedly easy to kill with just 300 points worth of fire warriors alone in a single turn. The only storm shields I'd take would be to absorb the odd plasma or power weapon wound they suffer, if someone want to poor that much fire power into killing them including ap1, 2 and 3 shots when he could fire them at other targets then you have already one due to that players lack of gaming knowledge. Any good gamer wont fire ap 1-3 weapons into a squad fully armed with storm shields.

 

Regards

Crynn.

[calgaryBA]

Either you were incredibly lucky or that tau player was bad with his force, to kill that 300 point+ unit of your all he needed to do was cause 15 wounds with pulse rifles which would have been in rapid fire range to kill you maybe slightly more with wound allocation but my point is that is retartedly easy to kill with just 300 points worth of fire warriors alone in a single turn. The only storm shields I'd take would be to absorb the odd plasma or power weapon wound they suffer, if someone want to poor that much fire power into killing them including ap1, 2 and 3 shots when he could fire them at other targets then you have already one due to that players lack of gaming knowledge. Any good gamer wont fire ap 1-3 weapons into a squad fully armed with storm shields.

 

Regards

Crynn.

 

If you read my post you'd realize there was nothing else for him to shoot at. He killed every other unit in my army other than an assault squad that was in combat. He was a good player.

 

He did fire 2 squads of fire warriors at them, one being out of rapid fire range. I just made sure to keep them near my priest who was still alive. All those fire warriors took out the basic non-geared VV. As for the "odd" plasma weapon wound... I can remember at least 8 plasma shots on them per turn among other AP1/2 weapons.

[Khavos]

lol on the glaive encarmine on the sargant, you do realize considering you haven't given the sargant any other equipment it's actually worse than a power weapon.

 

Sorry, should've been clearer. He has one of the four Storm Shields.

 

On to the sanguinors blessing, it is random. I believe it may have even been FAQ'ed but either way with rules lawyering alone the word randomly will take 'precedent' over 'choose' just because of the sentence construction so while it does not specify how you should do it randomly it must be random, although I do agree that is stupid.

 

Yeah, I was playing devil's advocate on it in the rules forum, my point being that it would have been extremely simple to write rules for it rather than leaving it up to personal interpretation, but stopped when everyone started getting uppity.

 

As for the storm shields on vanguard I see what people are trying to do but I don't believe it is worth the points as anyone seing storm shields with just use forced saves based weaponary instead although if you slam them into a DS unit to kill or hold it up that's a different story however I still see this as too risky expensive and not necessarily going to get the job done, thats just my opinion though as I havent played with that style of VV before.

 

Well, I think that style is pretty essential for an all-jumper army, and either in this thread or another, someone math hammered out the risk involved, and I think you ended up with like less than a ten percent chance that they'd arrive outside of charge range after scattering with proper placement. I'd much rather charge those TWC than let them have their pick of just-deepstruck units to charge themselves.

[Joasht]

Either you were incredibly lucky or that tau player was bad with his force, to kill that 300 point+ unit of your all he needed to do was cause 15 wounds with pulse rifles which would have been in rapid fire range to kill you maybe slightly more with wound allocation but my point is that is retartedly easy to kill with just 300 points worth of fire warriors alone in a single turn. The only storm shields I'd take would be to absorb the odd plasma or power weapon wound they suffer, if someone want to poor that much fire power into killing them including ap1, 2 and 3 shots when he could fire them at other targets then you have already one due to that players lack of gaming knowledge. Any good gamer wont fire ap 1-3 weapons into a squad fully armed with storm shields.

 

Regards

Crynn.

 

*Backs up Calgary*

 

To be honest, Deathstars like that, when used properly are not as easy to take out as theory would suggest, depending on the circumstances. In the past when I used the LC/SS deathstar myself they very rarely get wiped out by shooting, and often deal HUGE damage in combat. And yes, I've played the deathstar tens of times against people I wouldn't dare consider anything near a "poor gamer".

 

The problem here however is, if and when they suddenly get wiped out (and they can, I've had stupid things like Battlecannons deviating into the squad and me fluffing all my invul saves) you have lost so much hitting power the chance of you making a rebound victory drops significantly.