Mechanized Scouts

[Destaro]

Howdy all. I was looking for some advice/input on whether or not it's viable to mechanize Scouts. I have fluff reasons for wanting to include more Scouts than Tactical Marines but mobility and durability end up being an issue. I've tossed around the idea of handing dedicated transports over to the Scouts via Vanguard, Devs, Command Squad, and/or Honor Guard but I wasn't sure if it would even worth it. I normally field sniper rifle scouts with camo cloaks and they work out well but I was hoping I could do something a little outside the box.

 

My thinking is that Scouts inferior WS, BS, and save can be mitigated while in a transport (particularly when there are no fire points). However, a heavy weapon and a sgt could give me enough reason to want a Rhino. 8 scouts (1 ML), Telion, and a MOTF with a conversion beamer might also push me in that direction. I was also thinking about combat squading 2 10-man Scout squads and having the Sgts and 4 CCW scouts hop into a pair of LSS while the other 5 sit inside a couple of Razorbacks. I know it seems like a lot of mucking around just to put Scouts in transports but I was trying to do something that was tactically and points effective while working within the comfines of the fluff I'm using.

 

Any thoughts?

[Jackelope King]

Very, extraordinarily tough to pull off. They're practically the only infantry models in our Codex which don't get a dedicated transport, making our ability to mech them up very, very difficult. Further, they can't impart the scout USR, let alone Infiltrates, to their transports. So either we ignore a decent proportion of what makes scouts actually nice (their USRs) and shove them in transports, or we plan for some kind of a turn 2 scoop, where we climb the scouts into transports midfield after the transports catch up with them. They also lose out on the ability to be a cost-effective Melta-bunker midfield (Tacticals get a free Multi-Melta at 10-men, and in a Rhino, firing out of the top hatch, they actually get a decent threat radius with it, allowing Codex: Space Marine Tactical Squads to be among the best in the game at holding midfield). All of these are knocks against the concept.

 

The only transport which works for them is a paper airplane called the Land Speeder Storm. It's not a tank, so it loses one of the big benefits of a Troops transport (the ability to tank shock enemy models off of an objective late-game).

 

Further, the only models which we can really reliably steal transports from are going to be ones which are long-range focused, and we really only get that in the Heavy Support slot, with overcosted Devastators. I'm reluctant to recommend this for that reason. Your other options are arguably worse. Honor Guard will chew up such a stupid amount of points (as will the Chapter Master) that you'll never put enough tanks on the table. Similar with Vanguard Vets. A Command Squad might be an option (as Feel No Pain makes them decent at holding their ground, for what I have in mind below). Sternguard can pull if off, if you treat them like Eldar treat Fire Dragons (drop them off, spray and pray).

 

The other possibility we could use would be to take 3 squads of Missile Launcher Devs (need to be able to force the enemy transports into the scrapyard) with Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, and 2 squads of Sternguard similarly equipped (they also need lots of combi-meltas). Infiltrate the Scouts into their usual midfield positions, and use them as lures. Ideally, put them in blinds where the enemy needs to come after them, and can't adequately shoot them to death from their backfield. Keep the Flamerbacks in the wings to swoop in, torch the enemy that come forward, and then scoop up the Scouts and bolt. If it's feasible, possibly even give 1 or 2 scout sergeants a teleport homer, with a big Terminator Assault Squad waiting in reserves. The idea is to present an easy target midfield, then turn the middle of the board into a gigantic mess with Sternguard and Terminators. If the enemy doesn't commit, you create a powerful flanking force. If he does, your Scouts still slink away in their transports.

 

But this will be really hard to pull off, and quite risky. I don't see it as being very competitive... much too gimicky. I don't think it's viable.

[captain sox]

It's hard to do...

 

Seeing how Scouts are supposed to be sneaky, stealthy and all that.

 

But... 3 Whilrwinds or 3 Predators is easy to make fluffly. The Scouts infiltrate and report co-ordinates back to the crews of the tanks.

 

Whirlwinds are the long range bombers, while the Predators are mobile cavalry.

 

These vehicles are cheap points wise, will work well in fluff and will support Scouts well.

 

in larger point games, add some 'tactical' Terminators with Cyclone Launcher(s)...

 

and maybe even use a Land Speeder Storm.... sure they are fragile, but when used properly, they can mess up your opponents plans.

[Destaro]

Very, extraordinarily tough to pull off. They're practically the only infantry models in our Codex which don't get a dedicated transport, making our ability to mech them up very, very difficult. Further, they can't impart the scout USR, let alone Infiltrates, to their transports. So either we ignore a decent proportion of what makes scouts actually nice (their USRs) and shove them in transports, or we plan for some kind of a turn 2 scoop, where we climb the scouts into transports midfield after the transports catch up with them. They also lose out on the ability to be a cost-effective Melta-bunker midfield (Tacticals get a free Multi-Melta at 10-men, and in a Rhino, firing out of the top hatch, they actually get a decent threat radius with it, allowing Codex: Space Marine Tactical Squads to be among the best in the game at holding midfield). All of these are knocks against the concept.

 

Actually, the second turn scoop was almost exactly what I had in mind for at least variation of the concept. And while I agree that putting Scouts in transports will nerf the benefits of their USR's, I don't think a Melta-bunker is the only option for holding ground.

 

The only transport which works for them is a paper airplane called the Land Speeder Storm. It's not a tank, so it loses one of the big benefits of a Troops transport (the ability to tank shock enemy models off of an objective late-game).

 

The LSS also isn't a dedicated transport and can take up valuable Fast Attack slots. Especially since, in my experience, multiple are required to truly be effective.

 

Further, the only models which we can really reliably steal transports from are going to be ones which are long-range focused, and we really only get that in the Heavy Support slot, with overcosted Devastators. I'm reluctant to recommend this for that reason. Your other options are arguably worse. Honor Guard will chew up such a stupid amount of points (as will the Chapter Master) that you'll never put enough tanks on the table. Similar with Vanguard Vets. A Command Squad might be an option (as Feel No Pain makes them decent at holding their ground, for what I have in mind below). Sternguard can pull if off, if you treat them like Eldar treat Fire Dragons (drop them off, spray and pray).

 

I didn't find it that hard to borrow transports. If you give Assault Marines, Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans a Land Raider, you can purchase a transport that would otherwise be empty. Also, a Librarian with Gate can free up a transport as well.

 

The other possibility we could use would be to take 3 squads of Missile Launcher Devs (need to be able to force the enemy transports into the scrapyard) with Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, and 2 squads of Sternguard similarly equipped (they also need lots of combi-meltas). Infiltrate the Scouts into their usual midfield positions, and use them as lures. Ideally, put them in blinds where the enemy needs to come after them, and can't adequately shoot them to death from their backfield. Keep the Flamerbacks in the wings to swoop in, torch the enemy that come forward, and then scoop up the Scouts and bolt. If it's feasible, possibly even give 1 or 2 scout sergeants a teleport homer, with a big Terminator Assault Squad waiting in reserves. The idea is to present an easy target midfield, then turn the middle of the board into a gigantic mess with Sternguard and Terminators. If the enemy doesn't commit, you create a powerful flanking force. If he does, your Scouts still slink away in their transports.

 

But this will be really hard to pull off, and quite risky. I don't see it as being very competitive... much too gimicky. I don't think it's viable.

 

I hadn't thought about dropping Terminators in and then bolting in a transport. That's an interesting idea that I may have to try.

 

Overall though, I was trying to avoid taking Tactical Marines. I was hoping I could use Scouts in a similar (although less effective) fashion at a lower cost. I realize that I lose the use of Scout, Infiltrate, and a special weapon, but I thought the 75 points might be worth it. It appears as though making it work would require a lot of list maneuvering for little benefit. If I gain any traction with the idea, I'll be sure to post about it. Thanks again for the input!

[Brother Xeones]

Further, the only models which we can really reliably steal transports from are going to be ones which are long-range focused, and we really only get that in the Heavy Support slot, with overcosted Devastators. I'm reluctant to recommend this for that reason. Your other options are arguably worse. Honor Guard will chew up such a stupid amount of points (as will the Chapter Master) that you'll never put enough tanks on the table. Similar with Vanguard Vets. A Command Squad might be an option (as Feel No Pain makes them decent at holding their ground, for what I have in mind below). Sternguard can pull if off, if you treat them like Eldar treat Fire Dragons (drop them off, spray and pray).

 

I didn't find it that hard to borrow transports. If you give Assault Marines, Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans a Land Raider, you can purchase a transport that would otherwise be empty. Also, a Librarian with Gate can free up a transport as well.

 

This was going to be my suggestion for you. Either that, or just go with scouts in the Raider and don't worry about trying to steal someone's ride for them--though the lack of fire points on the raider precludes Telion or MotF from firing out.

 

If you went with scouts in raiders what about something like:

 

MotF: Beamer

 

5x TH/SS terminators

LR Crusader (dedicated)

 

10x CC Scouts: PF, Combi-Flamer

10x CC Scouts: PF, Combi-Flamer

10x Sniper Scouts: ML, Telion

 

Landraider

Landraider

Vindicator

 

That's 1,735 points. Giving you some wiggle room for other units or wargear depending on your points limit. Maybe not the sort of direction you wanted to head, I don't know.

[Destaro]

Honestly, I was trying to use Scouts in a similar role to Tactical Marines. I was hoping by freeing up 75 points on the Scout Squads, it would make a Razorback or Rhino "free." I haven't played a lot of Razorbacks so I'm not sure if its worth fielding a pair of them.

 

I toyed around with a Command Squad on Bikes plus an Honor Guard or Vanguard Veterans in a Land Raider but it ends being very expensive.

 

What about taking a six-man squad of Devs with a Razorback/Rhino? If I need the Devs in the transport at the start of the game for some reason, I could always Outflank or Infiltrate with the Scouts.

 

I had contemplated trying Sternguard in a Land Raider as well. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but I thought it was worth considering.

 

What do you guys think?

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Well, this was a thought i had a few weeks ago, seems to be what your looking for, but fair waring, it's was just a thought.

 

3 Land raiders, (crusaders imo)

3 Assault squads, with rhinos instead of jump packs

3 Scouts squads w/ your choice of ccw/bp, bolters, or shotguns

HQs of choice and upgrades across the board (calgar for god of war, imo)

 

have your assault squads mob in the LRC, and your scouts in the rhinos. disco!

[ShinyRhino]

The tricky part with stealing dedicated transports from other units for the Scouts is that if you do not get first turn, you're sitting there next to an empty vehicle waiting to be shot at. The enemy either cuts down the scouts at the bus stop, or blows up the bus before the kids can get on. They'll never get to school that way!

 

You're forced to use non-dedicated transports. That leaves you with Land Raiders, or Speeder Storms. Land Raiders eat up Heavy Support slots, and Storms eat up Fast Attack. It's a compromise you have to make to field many of them, and often comes down to playstyle.

Think of it this way...if you take a trio of ten-man Scout squads that are armed with shotguns and/or pistol+blade, which is a better support unit for them, a Vindicator, or a Land Raider. The Vindicator might drop pie plates, but it doesn't deliver your close combat oriented Scouts into the thick of the fighting.

If you take several smaller units of Scouts in addition to those 10-man units in Crusaders, which is more useful for you, Assault Marines or bikers, or the Speeder Storms. The Assault Marines and Bikers might be fast and agile, but they can't fly into the enemy zone and deliver scoring troops to objectives.

[Destaro]

The tricky part with stealing dedicated transports from other units for the Scouts is that if you do not get first turn, you're sitting there next to an empty vehicle waiting to be shot at. The enemy either cuts down the scouts at the bus stop, or blows up the bus before the kids can get on. They'll never get to school that way!

 

You're forced to use non-dedicated transports. That leaves you with Land Raiders, or Speeder Storms. Land Raiders eat up Heavy Support slots, and Storms eat up Fast Attack. It's a compromise you have to make to field many of them, and often comes down to playstyle.

Think of it this way...if you take a trio of ten-man Scout squads that are armed with shotguns and/or pistol+blade, which is a better support unit for them, a Vindicator, or a Land Raider. The Vindicator might drop pie plates, but it doesn't deliver your close combat oriented Scouts into the thick of the fighting.

If you take several smaller units of Scouts in addition to those 10-man units in Crusaders, which is more useful for you, Assault Marines or bikers, or the Speeder Storms. The Assault Marines and Bikers might be fast and agile, but they can't fly into the enemy zone and deliver scoring troops to objectives.

 

Can't I just use their Scout move to hop into the transport? The BRB states "...any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in the Movement Phase..."

 

But regardless, I feel like fielding so many Land Raiders is just asking for trouble. I don't normally rely on other Heavy Support choices, so using the slots isn't an issue; spending 750-825 points to protect Scouts is. That's really my issue. I wanted to find reasonably cheap and effective ways of transporting Scouts without watering down the entire list to do so. Inside a Rhino, I feel like Scouts are all most as useful as a Tactical Squad. A combi-weapon on the Sgt, a heavy weapon, a single Sniper Rifle, and maybe a shotgun provides flexibility. I can even toss some CCW's in their as well. In a Razorback (or a pair with Combat Squads), a squad of Scouts can provide mobile cover fire with the ability to hold objectives while minimizing their faults (ie. low BS and mediocre saving throws). How many Razorbacks are needed to be considered effective?

 

I also really dislike Assault Squads. If I'm going to stick something in a Land Raider, it should either be scoring or reliable. Assault Squads are neither of those things in my experience. They beg to be accompanied by a Chaplain and at that point I feel like Assault Terminators are a way better option.

 

Do you guys think this might work:

 

Chapter Master

Honor Guard (purchase Rhino)

Captain

Command Squad (CC/short range Bikes, purchase Rhino)

2xScout Squad (in said Rhinos)

1x Scout Squad (Combat Squads, both in Razorbacks)

Land Raider

2xDevs (purchase Razorbacks)

 

I have no idea on the general point cost, but that seems like a decent place to start. 4 scoring units (all with transports), a fair amount of ranged fire power to support the Bike/Land Raider advance, and two IC's to bolster either the Honor Guard or the Bikes. I also have all of my Elite and Fast Attack slots available for Dreads, Sternguard, Termies, Land Speeders, and/or Bikes.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback thus far, I just hope this ends up being something I can make work. Even if it's just in a buddies basement, I would like to see the idea succeed.