Deep strike your terminators?

[maverike_prime]

So I'm looking at my Chaos list and thinking about what I can change. Not from a competitive stand point, presently my record is 10/1/3 w/d/l. But rather from a "I'm getting bored with the present list" In the past I've been running a unit of 5 Chaos Termies with a Tzeentch Icon and deep striking them in late in the game to deal with a problem that might have come up or to contest a table quarter. All my units that can carry an icon, do so I've never needed to worry about scatter. I've gotten a lot of push back when I talk about doing this. The general response is I'd be better off dropping the Icon and arming the Termis with Combi-meltas. I've thought about it, and I just can't wrap my mind around wasting Termis like that. Using them solely for the one shot melta gun? That's a 35 point melta blast. If it works, great. if it doesn't... okay now I've got an expensive fud-fud with a power sword that can't sweeping advance. So here's my question, well questions really:

 

1) Do you deep strike in your Termis?

if yes, why? What typically is their objective? What do you want them to accomplish?

If no, why not? Again what is their objective, why did you take them?

 

2) Combi-melta vs Twin linked bolters? one-shot armor pen vs Twin-linked Rapid fire shots.

What are your thoughts?

[Dan The Deamon]

I used to run the melta's and ran into the problems you are having. Sure it's a cheap efficient solution to anti tank, it's readily available and easy to model... But it just doesn't feel right.

 

I run 4 with ;

Combi-plas / PW

Combi-plas / PW

Combi-plas / PW

Heavy Flamer / PF (sometimes a champ).

 

I have found this way i can take down low armor vehicles outside of 12" if i scatter, or put some serious hurt on anything from terminators to hordes. three terminators always died to one round of shooting but once i stuck the fourth one in there they actually survive to do some serious damage. If i deep strike them onto my plague marine icon i have a potential of 10 rapid fire plasmagun attacks. Then with a 7 man plague and 4 man termi with 2 PF gets charged they soak up some damage and put out some hurt.

 

I have never started them on the table during a game. my zerks get the Raider and these guys teleport. they walk too slow and cost too many points to transport for what they're worth.

 

I've really been tempted to get an autocannon team in the works but already got 6 in my list.

[Brother Nihm]

and I just can't wrap my mind around wasting Termis like that.

 

But it just doesn't feel right.

 

Termicide fills a niche that nothing else in our 'dex does, surprise and easily forcing the opponent's hand. It also helps to cover for something that we already lack, namely long range anti-tank, by offering us a chance to reach out and burn something vital to our opponent from Turn 2 (4+). Added to that, our other options in the Elite section aren't that hot.

 

The setup,

2x 3-man is the common setup and helps ensure that at least one will be available on the second turn. If they miss/fail to do damage, you've only spent 105 points on something your opponent will have to shoot, nobody wants 3 unchecked power weapons in their back yard to contest objectives or bring down additional support (IoCG + Lesser Daemons).

 

Then and now,

Early 2007 after rough analyses of the Codex had been done, the conclusion was that melee Terminators were inefficient due to point costs (no THSS), the way Deepstrike and our Landraider (5 T-Models max) works. The logical choice would be to go for a shooty approach, until one saw the point cost (Reaper) and options available (one-shot weapons).

 

This has unfortunately not changed.

 

If you aren't going for Termicide or semi-cide (larger squads with combi's and maybe a flamer, then at best you can make a decent all-round unit - which is still surpassed by basic CSM in a Rhino, in terms of cost effectiveness.

 

Fluff and statwise the armour is the best available, in the previous codex it was the strongest marines that were allowed to wear them (e.g. Chosen), each Chosen was described as being an aspiring Chaos Lord in his own right. In 2nd ed. you could field Chaos Terminators that would surpass other armies' champion models (I am looking at you Twin L.Claw, MoK, Collar of Khorne + Favour of Khorne Asp. Champ.).

 

Now you cannot.

 

Conclusion,

If you want to stay true to fluff (like I do) you will have to compromise. For this I recommend semi-cide. A single 4-6 man unit with combi's and a Heavy Flamer. Give that a spin and see how it performs. If it is not to your liking then there are other unit configurations available, sadly not as efficient as in the past - but they can still be fun to field.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

 

 

Edit:

Here is some added reading material:

Chaos Terminators, Why just termicide?

Termicide, Stories/opinions

Best use of Chaos Termicide?, Use for Chaos Terminators

Flamercide, 3 termies 2 combi flamers 1 heavy flamer

Termicide tactics?

Four-man Termicide config, Spreading the wealth

How do termicide squads work?, How do these guys take out a land raider?

Termicide

[the jeske]

In the past I've been running a unit of 5 Chaos Termies with a Tzeentch Icon and deep striking them in late in the game to deal with a problem that might have come up or to contest a table quarter.

how do you "deep strike them in late in the game" when chaos has no way to control their reservs?

 

 

I've thought about it, and I just can't wrap my mind around wasting Termis like that

:P termis cost 105 pts . tanks cost more. not a waste when blowing up tanks. chaos armies work better when opponent does not have transports. so works with the all round army way of playing . Am kind of a missing the part about "wasting" the termis there.

If it works, great. if it doesn't... okay now I've got an expensive fud-fud with a power sword that can't sweeping advance.

which has to be countered , because he has a 18" melta weapon . messes up opponent movement phase [specialy if the turns run on timer or when there is a chance of DQ for stalling] . which means there is a chance of mess up and a charge or easier shoting from your DP/oblits. Even if he does counter them it still means your main army is taking less shots.

 

1) Do you deep strike in your Termis?

kill tanks , kill transports or double tap MC. always Deep strike .

2) Combi-melta vs Twin linked bolters? one-shot armor pen vs Twin-linked Rapid fire shots.

always combis . If you want bolters buy pms or csm . also combi bolters can rapid fire too.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Very nice post Nihm.

 

For my part, I run my squad this way :

 

5 Chaos Terminators :

- Icon of Tzeentch

- 3 combi-meltas

- Heavy Flamer

- Power Fist

[Requiemnex]

1) Do you deep strike in your Termis?

if yes, why? What typically is their objective? What do you want them to accomplish?

If no, why not? Again what is their objective, why did you take them?

 

I normally run ONE unit of 3 terminators with combi-melta and a chainfist... Even after they blow their load they are still a vital threat to vehicles.

Dont underestimate terminator armor 2+ 5+ either.. i have gone entire games after Deepstriking second turn without losing a single terminator (lucky rolls) the thing to also remember is that when your terminators are being focus fired on the rest of your army ISNT.

 

I have in the past done a Tzeentch mark w/ double claws and abadbad.. This is a bad idea.. Abadbad loses his fearlessness.. I had a guy use 10 termiantors and a sorcerer.. Turn one I fired 8 shots of autocannon into it.. He lost 4 guys. Forced the leadership test... They ran off the board... Epic defeat.. Mathhammer wins.

 

I think that using termaintors as shootinators is not a bad idea.. I think the autocannon is WAY overpriced for them and the heavy flamer is the only real option for a heavy weapon. The combi weapons are all good ideas and a 5 man deepstriking terminator could turn the tide of the battle. The problem is you would have to tailor the rest of your army to be able to handle approximatley 200 unupgraded points to be off the table until you roll them in.. Some people are ok with this and if you are... DO IT! if not... Stay away.. i personally hate deepstrike as it is too unreliable.

 

2) Combi-melta vs Twin linked bolters? one-shot armor pen vs Twin-linked Rapid fire shots.

What are your thoughts?

 

Combi-melta can still be rapid fired and you are given the choice of the bolter or the melta one shot... Twin linked although nice wont get used 2/3 of the time as its a 3+ to hit.. if you wanted to mathhammer it i am pretty sure the normal bolter is only marginally worse than the twin linked bolter and then when you added the killy ability of the meltagun you would find yourself taking the 5 points for a combi weapon.

[hazardousZERO]

I do the 3 combi weapon usually melta termicide deepstrike method. That said i have used a 5 man squad with multipal combi weapons a heavy flamer/chainfist and MoN. They were very expensive but hard as hell too kill. For big apocalypse games i take a 10man squad with 2 RAC/CFist, 3Combi weapons/CFist and 5 Lightning claws, MoN and the claws are champs. This is rediculasily expensive but hey its apocalypse so its ok.

 

I always deep strike termies my land raiders are full of bezerkers that said last game they did jump in an empty LR and drove around for the rest of the game.

[maverike_prime]

In the past I've been running a unit of 5 Chaos Termies with a Tzeentch Icon and deep striking them in late in the game to deal with a problem that might have come up or to contest a table quarter.

how do you "deep strike them in late in the game" when chaos has no way to control their reservs?

 

Simple, When I need a 6+ to bring in reserves, I roll a 1. When I need a 5+ I roll a 1, when I need a 4+ I roll a 1. When I need a 3+ I tend to roll a 2. After that it's automatic that they come in anyway. I've managed to roll a reserve in turn 2 like twice. So I never plans on having my termies early in the game

[minigun762]

I'll just toss the idea of the Reaper squad (Reaper-cide?) out there. Similar to the Termicide, but you just take a single RAC instead of any Combis. Its 10 points more expensive but it gives you firepower to use on more then one turn and you can start the game with them on the board. I think of it as a poor substitute for the Loyalist's Rifleman Dread since we can't field sane Dreads.

 

EDIT: Brother Nihm, I thoroughly approve of the term "Semi-cide" for the larger deepstrike squad.

[Requiemnex]

I'll just toss the idea of the Reaper squad (Reaper-cide?) out there. Similar to the Termicide, but you just take a single RAC instead of any Combis. Its 10 points more expensive but it gives you firepower to use on more then one turn and you can start the game with them on the board. I think of it as a poor substitute for the Loyalist's Rifleman Dread since we can't field sane Dreads.

 

EDIT: Brother Nihm, I thoroughly approve of the term "Semi-cide" for the larger deepstrike squad.

 

Although I agree with the autocannon... problem is why would you bother deepstriking a 48inch ranged weapon? just slap him on the table and let him gun down imperial scum.

[Verfolgung]

The Reaper Autocannon is only 36" range though I do agree with you on deep striking it. Maybe the deep strike gives you a better chance at side armor. I think I am going to give it a try on the next termi squad I build.

[Requiemnex]

Eeep, you are correct. Sorry.. See, the last time I have used a reaper autocannon is when it was a choice for more than just TERMINATORS......

 

Havocs.... :lol:

 

 

Realistically it all comes down to a matter of play style and the sort. As much diversity as chaos has.. it only has a few builds that are considered "competative". If you arent playing competative... DO IT!

[Dan The Deamon]

The Reaper Autocannon is only 36" range

 

*mind explodes*

 

The rug has been swept from under me...

[minigun762]

I'll just toss the idea of the Reaper squad (Reaper-cide?) out there. Similar to the Termicide, but you just take a single RAC instead of any Combis. Its 10 points more expensive but it gives you firepower to use on more then one turn and you can start the game with them on the board. I think of it as a poor substitute for the Loyalist's Rifleman Dread since we can't field sane Dreads.

 

EDIT: Brother Nihm, I thoroughly approve of the term "Semi-cide" for the larger deepstrike squad.

 

Although I agree with the autocannon... problem is why would you bother deepstriking a 48inch ranged weapon? just slap him on the table and let him gun down imperial scum.

Rereading my post it wasn't clear but I was on favor of the reaper squad starting on the board.

[Requiemnex]

I'll just toss the idea of the Reaper squad (Reaper-cide?) out there. Similar to the Termicide, but you just take a single RAC instead of any Combis. Its 10 points more expensive but it gives you firepower to use on more then one turn and you can start the game with them on the board. I think of it as a poor substitute for the Loyalist's Rifleman Dread since we can't field sane Dreads.

 

EDIT: Brother Nihm, I thoroughly approve of the term "Semi-cide" for the larger deepstrike squad.

 

Although I agree with the autocannon... problem is why would you bother deepstriking a 48inch ranged weapon? just slap him on the table and let him gun down imperial scum.

Rereading my post it wasn't clear but I was on favor of the reaper squad starting on the board.

 

 

Ahhh, I see clearly now..

[Dark Apostle Lorenzo]

I run my Termies as a unit of 4 with a lord in the mix. All transported in a Landraider, for the most part. The assault vehicle has helped them numerous times. mine are basicly cc models 1 Deamon weapon, 2 power weapons, a power fist and a chainfist. They go after the spots that need reinforcement in my line or to take out hard line enemy forces. Rarely I will deep strike them. but thats a long shot for me. Plus getting a Land Raider in with three Heavy support slots filled up with other things is always a great option. (Oblits Defiler and Predator)

[minigun762]

I have to admit that the more we talk about Termicide and its variants, the more I'm thinking that the Combi-Plasma route might be superior overall.

 

More people are relying on lighter vehicles (Chimera and Razorbacks) where the Melta's advantages are less significant. Factor in the increase in big MCs thanks to Tyranids as well as the omni-present threat of Terminators and MEQs and the extra shots from Plasma seem to be edging out the armor penetration of Melta in my mind.

 

You could also argue that the Plasma portion is a better buy because Plasma weapons are normally more expensive then Melta weapons, so you're getting more bang for your buck.

[The Prophet]

9 terminators, 9 combi-plasma, X Powerfists = enemy MEQ squad disappear completely at first arrival.

 

Devastating psychological attack, and not so bad to have a CC-strong unit left behind the enemy lines. It's expensive but can turn battles.

[minigun762]

9 terminators, 9 combi-plasma, X Powerfists = enemy MEQ squad disappear completely at first arrival.

 

Devastating psychological attack, and not so bad to have a CC-strong unit left behind the enemy lines. It's expensive but can turn battles.

 

On a related note, I ran the numbers and 7 Terminators who rapid fire their C-Plasma into a Trygon (or other T6 6 wound MC) should kill it off on average.

[Brother Nihm]

You could also argue that the Plasma portion is a better buy because Plasma weapons are normally more expensive then Melta weapons, so you're getting more bang for your buck.

 

Those reasons are why I'm using Plasma over Meltas. Just 3 though! (and a Heavy Flamer because it's too damn good) ;)

 

link

[minigun762]

Those reasons are why I'm using Plasma over Meltas. Just 3 though! (and a Heavy Flamer because it's too damn good) ;)

 

So the 3 C-Plasma/1 Heavy Flamer has served you better then 4 C-Plasma?

 

Walking down the hallway at work, I had thought of doing the same thing and adding in that Heavy Flamer.

[Brother Nihm]

So far they've worked well as support/running interference.

 

The squad would be bigger (6) if I had the points for it though, but we usually play at 1500 points so I prioritize my terminators lower than my CSM.

[hazardousZERO]

Minigun-Sounds too me like you really dont like work. ^_^

 

The way I plan in fun games is depending on my opponnet ill use any of the 3 types of combi weapon. In a turne it will be melta but as long as my opponett says its ok withe them then i do it but i dont reccommend doing it this way.

[minigun762]

Hey I do work! Office work is just boring, and army building during meetings is a good way to pass the time Haha

[Captain Idaho]

Do we really think that GW will allow Terminators to be used like that in their next Codex though? I feel the lack of dependable deepstriking/fast moving melta is deliberate in the list, though I could be wrong. I understand the original sentiment from the OP that he "can't get his head round it" (referring to "Termicide").

 

I doubt very much Chaos Terminators will have the option to be 3-strong in the next Codex becaue of this recent trend.

 

I like the Plasma Combi-melta/Heavy Flamer deepstriking Terminators though, as their role is less suicide and more in line with how they should be used according to fluff.

 

I had 2 Obliterators deepstrike against my objective on Wednesday and it lost me the game. They disputed my objective and beat up some Scouts and the game ended turn 5 before I could take it back. I imagine this as a better use of a unit of Terminators, rather than suicide. If there were 4-6 Terminators behind enemy lines then opponents would have alot more trouble taking/contesting your objective whilst holding their own.