Deep strike your terminators?

[Mentat]

I can't bring myself to use a termicide squad because I don't like the thought of trading a unit for a unit. Victory is no longer (directly) decided by trading points for points. In a kill point game, you are dropping them in to kill a land raider which is only 1 kill point. There's a decent chance you won't even land within 6" and waste them. The enemy can them kill the terminators for 1 kill point, using all the units he has that can't hurt the rest of your (probably) mechanized force. While delaying the delivery of whatever is on the raider is good, it is probably on your side of the board by the time reserves arrive anyway, and you should be able to melta them at that point anyway with other assets. In an objective game they can't clear most scoring units off an objective and they can't really contest one reliably. Anything less than a land raider in AV can be stunned/immobilized/killed at range and isn't worth wasting terminators on. If you are fighting IG, I can't see how sacrificing the elite slot and points to kill 1 Leman Russ is worth it.

 

I use a terminator squad with 3 bolter/pw terminators, 1 champion with combi weapon/lightning claw, and either a heavy flamer or reaper. If using the reaper I usually deply them on the board. If using the HF I usually keep them in reserve and bring them in to assist my CSMs where needed to hold or clear an objective.

[Hellios]

I can't see how sacrificing the elite slot and points to kill 1 Leman Russ is worth it.

 

Well it could be 3... and it depends on what you are facing... by throwing a spanner in the works and trading one KP for 1 KP now you could be denying them 2 or 3 KPs later... also if placed in the right place and with enough threats on the board the 'termicide' unit may well survive and even without further upgrades they can be a pain in the ass and if they have a heavy flamer or chainfist in there as well they are a threat to vehicles getting close even after they have used the melta and the heavy flamer and power weapons make them a threat to infantry be it a mob of orks/guard or MEQ... and then you might find that not only have they gained more KPs than they have given away but stopped the enemy taking KPs or objectives by disruption.

[Mentat]

I forgot to add, I always roll with a chainfist....

 

I didnt think about it but the LR could be in a squadron.

 

Nevertheless, my generic terminator squad has always served me well.

[the jeske]

Victory is no longer (directly) decided by trading points for points.

orly. if you pop a Land raider[making the unit that is inside slog it out , which A makes it slower and B means you have more time to shot at it] or a tank that may kill your rhinos/deep strike for 105 pts , then trading points for points is bad ?

w40k at is all about playing your own game and making your opponent unable to play [i know in in the eyes of the fluff players its the suck part of w40k]. ever seen what happens when you try to reach a fast moving army like tau or elder or a air cav build with 20" range melta ? sometimes it is hard to do. but there is nothing or close to nothing they can do about two melta deep strking within range and doing something .

 

There's a decent chance you won't even land within 6" and waste them

am not a math hammer person but . A the termi base is big . B the deviation on avarge is what 7" even if you drop 8" away your still in range with 2 weapons for the 6" 2d6 . yes if you roll 12 you have "only" 3 str 8 ap1 shots , but the chance of rolling 12 is the same as rolling double 1 on 2 oblits with lascanons. you say that your opponent wastes them , if that happens[actualy it probably happens when they do their job too] and that is precisly the idea. if I just poped 150+ points or maybe made 200/300+ points of hth units slogg it out and it cost 105 pts to do then I now have at least 100 pts more on the table then my opponent . I have no love for my models [as in I dont feel bad when they die , my DPs and oblits die almost every battle I do not table my opponents] am not going to cry , if my opponent kils the termis , because he wont do it with 105 pts he will invest more and those points more are not countering my DP , my oblits or my rhino csm. which for me sounds awesome .

[maverike_prime]

Do we really think that GW will allow Terminators to be used like that in their next Codex though? I feel the lack of dependable deepstriking/fast moving melta is deliberate in the list, though I could be wrong. I understand the original sentiment from the OP that he "can't get his head round it" (referring to "Termicide").

 

no, I get the idea of Termicide. The part I had an issue with was the basically blatant "if you take Chaos termies and don't talk combis you're wasting the points" feed back I'd gotten previously. I did a little testing and rolled out 1,000 shots. I just took a hand full of 20 dice and rolled them 50 times. This represented a squad of 5 Terminators with Combi-meltas attacking a Land Raider (No upgrades).

 

End result: I hit 28% of the time. I destroyed the Raider 6% of that 28%.

 

I then conducted the test again. This time with the assumption that the Termis were equipped with Combi-plasmas and were attacking Space Marines

 

End result: Slightly better hit ratio of about 29% with a much better kill ratio of 56%.

 

Finally I conducted the test one more time under the assumption of using T.linked Bolters against space marines.

 

End result: after Re-rolls I hit 51% of the time and tended to kill 47% of the time.

 

Now am I going to use these numbers to argue for you or anyone else? Nope. The way I roll is probably a bit different then you roll. The way I hold my hand, the way I drop the dice, the way I twist my wrist. But Based on my results, I can't justify spending the points to equip my termies with a one-shot melta gun when I hit roughly 1/3 times.

[hazardousZERO]

As you said no two people roll the dice the same way so we can argue with that. If you do deep strike then i suggest icons thats what I do and with my combi-melta termies its a great help. They have not dissapointed me as of yet. And just remember no matter what combo you use and whatever it is you kill/get killed buy that your blood too is welcome. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[minigun762]

I did a little testing and rolled out 1,000 shots. I just took a hand full of 20 dice and rolled them 50 times. This represented a squad of 5 Terminators with Combi-meltas attacking a Land Raider (No upgrades).

 

End result: I hit 28% of the time. I destroyed the Raider 6% of that 28%.

 

End result: Slightly better hit ratio of about 29% with a much better kill ratio of 56%.

 

Finally I conducted the test one more time under the assumption of using T.linked Bolters against space marines.

 

End result: after Re-rolls I hit 51% of the time and tended to kill 47% of the time.

 

Those results are not what one would expect at all. What exactly were you rolling? If it was the standard hit/penetrate/damage, you would expect much higher numbers. The hit% should have been around 67% since thats what BS4 equates to.

 

On topic, the reasons that people talk about using Combis with Chaos Terminators is mostly based on the lack of other viable options.

1) We don't have big Land Raiders or Storm Shields, so its hard to make a cheap and effective deathstar unit like TH/SS Terminators in a Crusader/Redeemer.

2) Our Land Raider, while being cheaper, is not nearly as good since it doesn't have PotMS. Its really just a glorified Rhino. Plus it has no way to give our Terminators Frags for assaulting.

3) Icons are a potential way to balance our Terminators with Codex ones, but the fact that they can get removed by some (un)lucky wound allocation limits their use or forces you to use larger squads (which can't fit into our small Raiders).

4) Since we aren't relentless, we can't do the whole walking up the board shooting thing that Tac Terminators can. Even more significant, our long range heavy weapon (Reaper AC) is inferior to both the Assault Cannon and the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

 

So we can't be mobile long range shooters and we can't be a (cost effective) assault unit, we're stuck being small(ish) deepstriking special weapon spammers.

[maverike_prime]

I did a little testing and rolled out 1,000 shots. I just took a hand full of 20 dice and rolled them 50 times. This represented a squad of 5 Terminators with Combi-meltas attacking a Land Raider (No upgrades).

 

End result: I hit 28% of the time. I destroyed the Raider 6% of that 28%.

 

End result: Slightly better hit ratio of about 29% with a much better kill ratio of 56%.

 

Finally I conducted the test one more time under the assumption of using T.linked Bolters against space marines.

 

End result: after Re-rolls I hit 51% of the time and tended to kill 47% of the time.

 

Those results are not what one would expect at all. What exactly were you rolling? If it was the standard hit/penetrate/damage, you would expect much higher numbers. The hit% should have been around 67% since thats what BS4 equates to.

 

 

Welcome to my world. I never count on the 1/5, the 1/4, the 1/3 or even the 1/2 chance. If you need to find out just how badly something can viably be, I can probably roll it.

[Brother Dakath]

4) Since we aren't relentless, we can't do the whole walking up the board shooting thing that Tac Terminators can. Even more significant, our long range heavy weapon (Reaper AC) is inferior to both the Assault Cannon and the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

 

I know we don't have the relentless special rule but Chaos Termies can still do that, I just looked under Terminator Armor in the current dex and that's what it says. Page 86 of the current Codex I believe (I can post page numbers for rules in here right?)

 

I will have to agree on the Assault Cannon and Cyclone Missile Launcher though.

[minigun762]

I was under the impression we could move and fire heavy weapons or assault after a rapid fire but not move and fire rapid fire weapons at max range

[Brother Nihm]

I was under the impression we could move and fire heavy weapons or assault after a rapid fire but not move and fire rapid fire weapons at max range

Minigun has it, Chaos Terminators may only walk and fire their Rapid Fire weapons up to 12" because they do not have the Relentless USR. Loyalist Terminators may walk and fire one shot each, up to 24".

 

As was mentioned earlier, shooty Chaos terminators are junk.

[--eFTy-->]

If you want to play competitively you simply don't use terminators. If you do want to use them, you use them as you like them, as they're a flavour choice. Some like them carrying ranged firepower, some like them combat oriented. I prefer taking a mixed squad in a Raider when I play with my Sons. 5 terminators, mark of Khorne (call it 'enchantment of aggression'), chainfist, power fist, heavy flamer, 2 combi-meltas to open cans, 5 lightning claws. They're somewhat expensive (250 total) but fun to use and can be thrown at virtually anything. Only problem is they are pretty vulnerable if they kill their target in the first round of combat and then drop like flies when I roll 1's to save. Nevertheless, these guys have killed command squads, other terminators, entire marine squads or simply popped tank after tank. Pricey but fun. At the same time their Raider simply sits back behind them and blasts away with the lascannons once they disembark, so even though it costs a lot of points it's still more useful than a rhino.

 

P.S. Zerks in a land raider? Zerks can also ride rhinos you know...