help vs IG

[Artemis360]

I'm kind of scared of IG gunlines. Aside from razorback spam (which I really really do not want to do) please share all your gems of wisdom on beating gunlines with BA. We're talking chimeras packed with special weapons, triple manticore lists, screening squads of infantry, chem-cannons. All that shiznit. What do you do when it seems your beloved assault troopers are dropping down slap bang infront of fiery death?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well personally I don't think razorspam is the way to go. I have some success versus IG using jump heavy armies. Descent of Angels pretty much solves all your problems. You don't have to worry about mishaps due to scattering and you get to reroll your failed reserve rolls. Okay so IG can take the Master of the Fleet which subtracts -1 from reserve rolls but it balances out nicely. Dante is very helpful versus IG since he and the unit he joins don't scatter when they come in from reserve. Take some infernus pistols and light up their tanks. Once you start popping some tanks the IG player is going to have to move out of their comfort zone. I've noticed a recent decline in the performance of IG and I attribute a lot of that to the new Blood Angels. Our jump units are fast and can cover a lot of ground. This I believe is the right way to go. :huh:

 

0b :huh:

[Crynn]

One problem is any smart IG player will tke an inquisitor with mysitcs so deep striking near them can be dangerous and cause you to loose your squads before ethey fire. This will no doubt be remedied in the new grey knight dex that will come out but as it stands now deep striking can be hazardous against them, IG players also take them incase of daemons who cop it raw versus mystics. Dante is good against IG, I normally dont condone his use in competitive games however against IG he is great for absorbing plasma with those 4 wounds and his invun. Vendettas will be a broblem, if you can deep strike next to them and take them out with meltaguns thats great pistols wont work as when you land they are so high off the ground that getting into 3 inch melta range requires you being almost underneath them, for this id suggest las auto preds which are great at killing them.

 

The problem then become protecting your armor, I would suggest a librarian with shield to help your army also if you arent using dante MEph can be very helpful as he covers ground quickly and will wipe out and IG vehicle in a turn and can even take down whole vehicle squadrons. priests will be usefull, first rank fire second rank fire does almost nothing to BA armies that are setup correctly, I suggest that plus the shield lib will help you dramatically. vindis i love, however they arent that great versus ig save for vendetta killing, the size of the vendetta makes it an easy target for a vindi if you decide to take one.

 

dev sqauds with all missiles could be good at popping there medium AV vehicles for cheap. attackbikes with MM's will be invaluble land speeders not so much, they find it harder to get cover and are more expensive, they will also not maul IG squads in CC like the bikes. Vang vets can be ok, i think their are cheaper better options personally, sang guard will be use be useless though dantes addition to their squad will help, I suggest HG instead for buitl in priest storm shields and melta gun reasons.

 

So very quickly that's my advice off the top of my head, If you want some more specific details in regards to any of those units and my reasons for against them just ask as I was just trying to provide more of an overview.

 

Good luck and Regards

 

Crynn

[lorider2]

IG are very tough. I agree with jawaballs in that las is king against most of their AV12 vehicles. Spamming S7 shots can also do the trick, though obviously you MUST roll that 6 to pen. I think packs are more doable than you think, especially if you take priest with shield and or some storm shields. Stay clear of mystics, but the truth the metagame has changed so much you rarely see many Russ' (or I don't) so usually its just the plasma squads you have to worry about and they typically have limited range.

[Kurb]

The problem then become protecting your armor, I would suggest a librarian with shield to help your army also if you arent using dante MEph can be very helpful as he covers ground quickly and will wipe out and IG vehicle in a turn and can even take down whole vehicle squadrons. priests will be usefull, first rank fire second rank fire does almost nothing to BA armies that are setup correctly, I suggest that plus the shield lib will help you dramatically. vindis i love, however they arent that great versus ig save for vendetta killing, the size of the vendetta makes it an easy target for a vindi if you decide to take one.

 

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

Played a 500 point 4way game the other night.

Thought I would be silly and take a small super cost unit, a JP reclus, a JP power weapon priest, ANNND deep struck them rightin front of 50 some IG models.

 

He gets all cocky about 1st rank 2nd rank. I take something like 100? LasGun/whatever shots. 7 or 8 of my group just smile back at him, and proceed to take out a couple of his platoons...

 

Upon further review we found out the guy was cheating on points, which made it all the better.

[Leardinal]

All of my recent games have been against IG gunlines and they are a tough nut to crack. Though I haven't had to fight the triple manitcore, my opponents used a combination of what you just listed. I strongly recommend AGAINST DoA and, as strange as it sounds, deploy everything you can.

 

The environment I was in was more hobby, but (unfortunately for me,) when we did play the terrain was heavily stack against anything besides a shooty army because it was 3 IG players and a Tau Player when I came in. I have used different lists, if you Deep strike, you won't lose guys if you don't go first, and my group doesn't know about the mystic trick. However, their favorite Leman Russ is the big plasma cannon with a lascannon on front a plasma cannon sponsons, so after the initial devastation of 4 RAS squads with 2 melta guns and an infurnus pistol each landing and popping armor like there are prizes inside, they are ultimately stuck base to base in the open, and I tell you it is a bad feeling to watch all 5 Plasma Blasts land in that squad.

 

When you deploy everything, there is so much to shoot at that they don't know what to aim at. I have been actually staying away from armor but am slowly going back to it. As unpopular as they are, Standard bike squads are amazing against IG. I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome an I have almost given up on DC. You watch the IG scramble as they now have to deal with a squad that just turbo boosted from one deployment to the other and has a Commander. Worse for guard, the 3+ cover pretty much guarantees that nothing big will hit your squad, which they are likely throw quite a bit of their manticore and chem cannons at since their lasgun needs 6 to wound, which draws pie plates and lascanoons and even battle cannons off the rest of your army. Even though the Bike squad isn't a specialized cc unit, you can smile as you watch few of those power weapons hit and almost none wound your no inv bikes.

 

Land Raiders also work wonders. Most of the Guards high str weapons are tied into pie plates, which more often then not slide off the raider and that str 10 becomes str 5

[Crynn]

I agree with you on almost all accounts except that land raiders shrug off pie plates at bs4 a land raider is easier to hit with a domolisher cannon than with a lascannon at bs it wont be too far off, they are very big. I don't disagree with the use of landraider however those manticores at least I think they are the onles with multiple str 10 blasts will take them down quite well.

[Artemis360]

Ok, this is all good stuff. I'm wondering about builds though.

 

How do you think;

 

Reclusiarch, JP

4xRAS with 2 meltas and power weapon

2x Devastators with ML

and 3 priests (1 for devastators, 2 for RAS) would fair? Does this seem like a reasonable list to take against gunline guard?

[calgaryBA]

I've found that whirlwinds are a great and cheap way to demolish IG gun lines. LRC's take out massive chunks of their armies if you can offer enough target saturation to make him use his high str and ap1/2 weapons against a number of targets. It's hard to beat 2 hurricane bolters within rapid fire range with an assault cannon.

 

Vs Guard gun lines, I don't try and hide anything, i just rush out with as many models as possible and present to him several targets that need to die ASAP and make him choose which ones he's going to try and take, before the others tear into him.

 

Take Meph as an HQ and just run the bugger out in the open (near a priest), with a couple vindicators, LRC and whatever else you have. All 4 are stupidly high on the priority list and at least a couple are going to make it, and make their points back easily.

[Morticon]

Bikes.

These are golden against most guard lists.

 

The ability to get right up there and cause havoc with their 3++

Attack bikes are so good against IG.

 

Flamey baals can help vs. certain IG builds too.

 

 

Then, rhinos with chunky squads and melta and fists, supported by jumpy marines.

 

I have an IG nemesis here where I play and it boils down to the first turn dice for us. If he gets first turn, im toast 70% of the time. If I get first turn, hes toast 80% of the time.

 

Rhinos are amazing- 18" puts us RIGHT up there. Razors are good, but carry fewer men and stick you at moving only 12" or risk not using the points you paid for. Rather use the rhinos to get up where you need to.

[Ranwulf]

Mephiston and other Librarians are a fairly scary bunch for the enemy. Blood Lance(not so good), Dreads CCW, Flying Dreads, Sword of Sang and Shield of Sang. In a way, we have good stuff to protect us, and other stuff to KILL!

 

Oh, Land Speeders. People usually rather get other things, but they are still the Tank killers.

 

Veteran Vanguard is also powerful, Thunder Hammers and Stormshields, go KILLING SPREE!

 

Ran

[Brother Nathan]

At a tourney i kept comming up against a renegade guard/ chaos list that had the master of ordinance 2 of the str6ap4 large blast things and a couple other big guns...well my marines were able to shrug off some of it but the ap3 str9 thing hurt and so did the master of ordinance... the chappy proved no use cause he didnt help the survivablility of the unit. id say a libby with sheild should be far more effective, a proper ability to keep some of them alive to get to hit some tanks. melta weapons, heavy weapons in cover, vindicators for if they pack the armour in it becomes hard to miss... Landraider with multimelta auta be a paint for them too... scouts outflanking with a fist and combi melta and missile launcher may work... shotguns for targeting rear armour also sternguard with combi meltas in droppods, bikes..

[Zid]

Mephiston, landspeeders, raiders are my bread and butter vs most IG.

 

Speeders they will normally target first, but hiding them is key! Mephhy will take a lot of shots off your other stuff. Raiders will typically get you up there into their lines as only Meltas and Demolishers "reliably" can take down a raider. Lascannons need 5's and 6's to do anything, and with extra armor, you need not worry much.

 

The ONE thing I must warn you about facing IG is Template spam. The guy I face on a normal bases takes the grenadier specialization on all his vet squads... meaning despite me dropping his chimeras and russes he still has 6 str 8, ap 2 templates. It makes it stupidly hard to win even after having him footslogging, and I will warn you to beware the same thing!

[LordofDeath11]

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

[Crynn]

Really good replies guys.

 

Mort is dead on use bikes, especially over speeders, I cannot stress this enough. Sure through Meph out there to absorb some dmg but dont get him killed straight away he function on 1 wound like he has 5 in tterms of dmging ig squads and vehicles try to keep him alive he guarantees a unit dead a turn unlike a tank. VV are ok as are out flanking scouts however i think like someone said having everything on the table first turn is a better alternative. Please take some autocannon las preds cause if they take vendettas they are the only things that we have that can take them at range, mm attack bikes will help here too.

 

Lose that chappy for a a lib, rerolling hits in combat wont do much veresus guad two assault marines will destroy a squad anyway however a lib with shield and sword will help protect tanks and toops alike and smash vehicles like a dreadnaught! with more attacks, that flys! you get my exadurated point.

 

Hope that helps

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Leardinal]

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

 

:D

 

But seriously, I am now beginning to think that I stumbled upon a rough Idea for a subtle psychological tactic. I know when I model leaders/priests for my army, I give them wings, even if they don't have a jump pack. The Reclusiarch is one of the jump packless winged commanders, (since he is on a bike,) but I am starting to think that if model some different looking leaders, you can start to control where fire comes down.

 

For instance, say the enemy is trying to pick a 10 man RAS to shoot and there are three of them on the board. 3 are the standard loadout with 2 MG's and a power fist, but the last one is different. It has 2 flamers and a PW wielding serge, probably not your first target among when compared to the other 3 if you are the IG player and its turn 1. But what if this squad was lead by a Sergent that had wings modeled onto his pack? That is the only difference, and even if he asks you if the wings mean anything and you respond honestly no except maybe some fluffy background, I guarantee that the opponent will still throw some extra damage his way, (unless the opponent is being super competitive, and I bet that special sergeant will still be in the back off their mind.)

[Crynn]

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

 

:D

 

But seriously, I am now beginning to think that I stumbled upon a rough Idea for a subtle psychological tactic. I know when I model leaders/priests for my army, I give them wings, even if they don't have a jump pack. The Reclusiarch is one of the jump packless winged commanders, (since he is on a bike,) but I am starting to think that if model some different looking leaders, you can start to control where fire comes down.

 

For instance, say the enemy is trying to pick a 10 man RAS to shoot and there are three of them on the board. 3 are the standard loadout with 2 MG's and a power fist, but the last one is different. It has 2 flamers and a PW wielding serge, probably not your first target among when compared to the other 3 if you are the IG player and its turn 1. But what if this squad was lead by a Sergent that had wings modeled onto his pack? That is the only difference, and even if he asks you if the wings mean anything and you respond honestly no except maybe some fluffy background, I guarantee that the opponent will still throw some extra damage his way, (unless the opponent is being super competitive, and I bet that special sergeant will still be in the back off their mind.)

 

I do this with my rhino and razorback in my army. They look like rolling chapels, i put lots of time into converting them and painting them and they draw so much fire power while my 2 vindis and my pred and baal just sit there shooting everything. Doesnt work on every opponent but its funny when they start shooting lascannons ar rhinos.

[LordofDeath11]

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

 

;)

 

But seriously, I am now beginning to think that I stumbled upon a rough Idea for a subtle psychological tactic. I know when I model leaders/priests for my army, I give them wings, even if they don't have a jump pack. The Reclusiarch is one of the jump packless winged commanders, (since he is on a bike,) but I am starting to think that if model some different looking leaders, you can start to control where fire comes down.

 

For instance, say the enemy is trying to pick a 10 man RAS to shoot and there are three of them on the board. 3 are the standard loadout with 2 MG's and a power fist, but the last one is different. It has 2 flamers and a PW wielding serge, probably not your first target among when compared to the other 3 if you are the IG player and its turn 1. But what if this squad was lead by a Sergent that had wings modeled onto his pack? That is the only difference, and even if he asks you if the wings mean anything and you respond honestly no except maybe some fluffy background, I guarantee that the opponent will still throw some extra damage his way, (unless the opponent is being super competitive, and I bet that special sergeant will still be in the back off their mind.)

 

Yeah that totally makes sense, human beings are painfully predictable that way.

[Aramis_the_Red]

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

 

:D

 

But seriously, I am now beginning to think that I stumbled upon a rough Idea for a subtle psychological tactic. I know when I model leaders/priests for my army, I give them wings, even if they don't have a jump pack. The Reclusiarch is one of the jump packless winged commanders, (since he is on a bike,) but I am starting to think that if model some different looking leaders, you can start to control where fire comes down.

 

For instance, say the enemy is trying to pick a 10 man RAS to shoot and there are three of them on the board. 3 are the standard loadout with 2 MG's and a power fist, but the last one is different. It has 2 flamers and a PW wielding serge, probably not your first target among when compared to the other 3 if you are the IG player and its turn 1. But what if this squad was lead by a Sergent that had wings modeled onto his pack? That is the only difference, and even if he asks you if the wings mean anything and you respond honestly no except maybe some fluffy background, I guarantee that the opponent will still throw some extra damage his way, (unless the opponent is being super competitive, and I bet that special sergeant will still be in the back off their mind.)

 

Yeah that totally makes sense, human beings are painfully predictable that way.

 

Lucky sons of ;) 's, all my opponents are robots. Also, sadly, they've figured the best way to win the game is to just shoot me instead of my models. Pain in the :) .

[Lucumon]

Bikes.

These are golden against most guard lists.

 

Fixed that for you. I don't think I have read a post from you in the past couple years where you didn't think bikes were the right answer.

 

I don't disagree.

[LordofDeath11]

I'm sorry if I asked this already, but how do Storm Raven's fair against IG tank lists?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Stormravens can do quite well versus mech IG. They are a great tank hunter.

 

0b

[Crynn]

This will sound stupid but Storm ravens are good against guard but guard are good against ravens. Look at it this way They'll have vendettas you'll have ravens, theres are cheaper but that aside if you take ravens they will be amazing i you get the first turn, move 6 shoot EVERYTHING, all missile MM, and assault or lascanns (twin linked) and watch that vehical or vehical squadran disapear, but dont go first and watch that raven fall out of the sky without a shot fired. Now i know you can always reserve the raven however against guard if something is not on the table it is neither absorbing damage or doing any and against guard I firmly believe you want it all on the tables, why underhand urself 200+ points for the avergae 3 turns before the raven comes on? Any yes the average reserves roll arrival turn is 3 not 2 for anyone wondering, it gets questioned a alot.

 

Regards Crynn

[Demoulius]

Bikes.

These are golden against most guard lists.

 

The ability to get right up there and cause havoc with their 3++

Attack bikes are so good against IG.

 

Flamey baals can help vs. certain IG builds too.

 

 

Then, rhinos with chunky squads and melta and fists, supported by jumpy marines.

 

I have an IG nemesis here where I play and it boils down to the first turn dice for us. If he gets first turn, im toast 70% of the time. If I get first turn, hes toast 80% of the time.

 

Rhinos are amazing- 18" puts us RIGHT up there. Razors are good, but carry fewer men and stick you at moving only 12" or risk not using the points you paid for. Rather use the rhinos to get up where you need to.

^this ;) once your marines get into combat its over, and sadly but true....the first turn simply matters a great deal.

 

you could however, if he gets first turn and takes it keep stuff in reserves. you run the risk of arriving piecemeal but it can save you alot of hurt. dont deepstrike if he has even 2 or more template weapons though as those will do hideous things to your marines :) if he has 1 you could potential risk it but tbh a guard player with only 1 template? *guffaws*

LordofDeath11 Posted Sep 16 2010, 12:02 AM

QUOTE (Leardinal @ Sep 15 2010, 04:14 AM) *

I run mine with an attached Reclusiarch because it looks awesome

 

Made me literally LOL dude. Nothing funnier than honesty.

i agree fulely :)

 

and bikes just are pure epic. stapple a SP on bike to that unit and youve got a fierce biker unit of death that; like how a friend of mine puts it "just wont ****ing die" he loathes FNP :D