Rules wish list

[Gunslinger87]

The captain I think should be better, but I have to admit almost all codexes have a 'bad' choice, and unfortunately he is it. Whether its laziness or just an attempt to force people to use a reclusiarch instead who knows. Its a shame, but when you look at the captain options you have to admit it must have been done on purpose, its just such a terrible set of options. I'd guess they where going to remove captain altogether and have a reclusiarch instead but got told to put it back in with the tiny amount of thought put into him.

 

You know what? I dont agree. How is the captain any worse than a regular C:SM captain? Except the fact that you cant give him a bike to make your bikers count as troops (and what BA would do that?) besides, assault marines counting as troops is already quite convenient. Aside from that? Pretty much the same...

 

Well besides the fact that you actually have MORE wargear options than a space marine captain....

 

What are you still complaining about?

 

You cant expect to have all the goodies in 40K, you have plenty of great HQs and before you argue that C:SM has great HQs too, well not really. Not unless you want to use different chapter leaders to represent your own. (which most people wont do, even though it is perfectly legal).

 

Just imagine if Mephiston was acutally a Blood Devils guy (one successor chapter I made up right now) and Dante was a Bile Angels chapter master...

 

You at least have the option of using everything that is good in your codex without people constantly fussing over the fact that vulcan and shrike in the same army doesnt make sense (especially if its painted red) and blah blah blah.

 

Edit: Actually, to make it a better example, Imagine that each good HQ in your codex would be a different chapter master of a different blood angels successor chapter and only seth was a true blood angel. YOu might not care... now imagine everyone making a fuss over it every time you play...

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I agree, the Sang Nov getting better gear is just unfluffly and a wish to make the HG even more awesome. The Sang Nov is already mechanically better than the Priest because he isn't an IC, while in fluff he is the Priest in training and is added to the HG because he isn't skilled enough to go out into the field alone like the Priests. So it is fluffy and balanced, leave that as is.

 

Mephiston not being an IC also isn't a great problem. He is balanced now and his stats, though insane, do fit with his description of what he is becoming. Can you see anyone with lesser stats holding off Tyranids in the bowel of a Hive World for 6 hours without rest?

 

I also agree on the Death Mask. It is not much a curse, more an image that strikes fear in the hearts of enemies of any kind. It is the universal fear of death! Even an Orc in a Waagh! will think twice when he sees the Golden Angel of Death fly down to strike him and his Boyz down.

 

I do agree though that for an aggressive assault vehicle, the Stormraven is much too vunerable for massed Str 6 hits. This is a vehicle that flies low over the enemies as he drops his payload and is therefore an easy target for small arms fire. Either give him higher armor or a special rules that come close to Eldar grav tank rules.

[Crynn]

I'm sorry firstly to answer your thunderhawk comparison. Its not even a REAL UNIT. I'm sorry but its a forgeworld model which I'm assuming has forgeworld rules. I'm also going to assume it can't die to a single Str 7 hit, personally I don't use forgeworld models unless there are real rules for it, since it causes too many issues, but this comparison is just rediculous. The SR is also a ASSAULT VEHICLE. The most important point here, its for delivering front line forces, particularly those that can't succeed slogging, and AV 12 is a bit of a joke. There are plenty of other options, like the eldar skimmer rules, but +1 AV helps to preclude a very specific and common type of weapon from being effective. It also means the vehicle isn't packed with special rules, since it already benefits against melta.

 

It is a real unit, it's used in battle missions which is a games workshop publication that has nothing to do with forge world, so they obviously endorse it. A massive difference between the two of us is you assume things and clearly havent read any fluff before the current codex, I on the other hand base things on statistics and facts things that aren't just opinions. So for your next assumption you are again worng, a thunderhawk can be killed by a single str 7 hit be it unlikely. Maybe read some rules before you go giving advice on changing other rules and units.

 

Then you suddenly do an about face and say that the Furioso should get EA because it would make it more viable...? Personally this doesn't bother me, because there has to be some disadvantage to having a psyker dread. It makes it very much the glass canon. Surely you aren't suggesting that the Dread should get extra armour, but your claiming the vehicle, capable of space flight, which carries a DREAD AND a SQUAD of space marines shouldn't get heavy armour....? The other reason it gets so little use is the cost.

 

The disadvantage of the psycher dread is the cost, what is the disadvantage of a veteran over a tac marine if not cost? Are you a moron? nothing has to have disadvantages if it has the appropriate point cost but you seem to think point costs can't be disadvantaged. As for your "Surely you aren't suggesting that the Dread should get extra armour, but your claiming the vehicle, capable of space flight, which carries a DREAD AND a SQUAD of space marines shouldn't get heavy armour....?" comment. I dont need to claim it because GW have written it, some dreads have has AV 13 for a while now no imperial flying vehichle has ever. Also thunderhawls and ravens arent made out of tactical dreadnaught armor.

 

dantes mask was not worn by sanguinius it was modelled on it after he died. What, did the artificer poor his own anguish into the mask when he created it putting in a powerful curse? There is no reason an item that has always had special rules that have remained similar in their feel over cedices and fluff should randomly be changed.

 

 

The Death Mask of Sanguinius makes perfect sense. If it embodies (practically his dieing emotion) the betrayel he felt from Horus then its hardly going to be a touchy feeling, lets all be happy and hug each other effect. Honestly did you even bother reading the actual fluff behind it.

You could even argue it was in some way tainted by Horus's actions and that the evil can be focused upon a foe in battle.

Honestly there is such a depth of possible reasons behind it that arguing it "can't" exist is just being obtuse.

 

Sanguinor: Every codex adds new things, its a funny thing about trying to create a universe, particularly one moving through time, but things get added and taken away. If you want to live in the past why aren't you still using the last BA codex. Really your arguements for this are purely based upon some sense of elitism over old BA lore, and your personal opinion.

 

Sorry let me put it this way. I think 'something' that can beat a deamon that sanguinius was once bested buy is a poorly done character, considering he will then lose to mephiston in a fight. So what Mephiston>Sanguinius? because that is what has been saif hear. With small tweaks that any non idiot could make that equation could easily be fixed without affecting game play much at all. Also surely something so incredibly powerful would have been mentioned before. Also GW still seem to live in the past with some fluff, thats why we still have tycho in our codex, ow with his very own power weapons hands!

 

Had you argued that individuals who never join a squad are against the entire 40k concept, in which most individuals cannot survive on their own, I'd be more inclined to see that your arguement some merit. Of course the entire idea behind several of the BA characters in this codex seems to be exactly bucking this trend to make them far more special and amazing.

 

Mephiston is what he is, I mean they are hinting at the fact that he has been corrupted by chaos, but even if its not true he is an extremely special individual.

Also in the 'stories' even if he 'fights with a honour guard' that doesn't mean they are attached to him, just like honour guard aren't always attached to the HQ they are purchased for. Fighting along side each other is still fighting 'together' he just can't quite join the squad, which isn't exactly suprising reading his current fluff. BA's are unsure if they can trust him or if he is even normal anymore, with great power comes great responsibility, and that can possibly mean he is more of a loner.

 

He also works exceptionally well with his current stats. I don't see how you would change these so he can 'fit' in the heirarchy of characters already created in the game without destroying his viability. WG have T6 and this guy sure would be as tough as one of them. Stats are just figures used for gaming, and as can be seen across pretty much all the codexes are rarely accurate to lore, relativity or fairness. His toughness is just an interesting way of having a character thats hard to kill without having an invuln. Its a nice change really.

Psychic powers.... he has the ones that are most relevant for killing stuff dead.. seems rather logical. Plus certain other powers would just be too powerful on him realistically.

 

Weather he fights with his honor guard or next to it is irrelivant his guard are there to do the same job as any others HQ's guard, they dont there is no reason for this. Wraithguard are made of wraithbone which is rediculously tough, hence a wraithlord is really tougher than a dread to kill so Mephiston shouldnt neccassaraly be that tough, anyway with 5 wounds compared to the one from wraithguard I think he'd stil be tougher. But I'm sure people will agree with you that T6 W1 is tougher than T5 W5. Your idocy is starting to know no bounds. I believe the person also quoted or referenced my original post in reguards to Meph in which I said he should have all the psychic powers, yes that would make him too powerful for 250 points however it was stated that his points cost would be adjusted accordingly as well as some minor stat drops.

 

Honour Guard are the best, but the sanguinary novitiate is just that, look up novitiate in the dictionary. They obviously are not 'full' Sanguinary Priests, but probably those in training. The wording of the codex is being used to reach a commonly accepted opinion of how the gear allocation works. If everyone just decided that it would work the other way then we wouldn't be talking about it.

The wording by RAW stops i. It has nothing to do with opinion. A novitive may in some ways be a novice but he is still obviously a veteran look at his stats. Veterans always have armory access to some degree, period.

 

The captain I think should be better, but I have to admit almost all codexes have a 'bad' choice, and unfortunately he is it. Whether its laziness or just an attempt to force people to use a reclusiarch instead who knows. Its a shame, but when you look at the captain options you have to admit it must have been done on purpose, its just such a terrible set of options. I'd guess they where going to remove captain altogether and have a reclusiarch instead but got told to put it back in with the tiny amount of thought put into him.

 

It should be better, so now you agree? But I though each codex NEEDS a bad choice. I definately think thats what GW go for, "Mr Ward this codex seems logical and fairly costed we can't have this, you must put a bad choice in there so we can release models for things that won't get used and to fill space in the codex" "Sorry sir I will get right on that and while im at it i'll make sure Mephiston destroys the nightbringing in single combat without taking a wound and is touger on every single psysical stat than almost any other marine in existance, oh and sir did you notice I manage to put the word 'blood' in the codex 12,428 times" "I did Mr Ward, very impressive".

Seriously I enjoy playing our codex and for the most part like it, but it is not hard to say "hey there are a couple of obvious errors that don't really tie in with the many precedents already laid out in 5th ed with this codex". Nothings perfect but at least admit to mistakes.

 

Regards

Crynn

 

Sorry for the slander in that one, I wrote what I was thinking and can't be bothered going over it to remove it. My next post won't contain any, promise.

[SnorriSnorrison]

You know what? I dont agree. How is the captain any worse than a regular C:SM captain? Except the fact that you cant give him a bike to make your bikers count as troops (and what BA would do that?) besides, assault marines counting as troops is already quite convenient. Aside from that? Pretty much the same...

 

Well besides the fact that you actually have MORE wargear options than a space marine captain....

 

What are you still complaining about?

 

Well, did you actually read the unit entry for the Captain? We have no access to artificer armour, digital weapons and relic blades. All of those are used by chapters which are characterised to be less of an artistic chapter than the Blood Angels when it comes to armour, little gadgets and weapons.

 

Would it be overpowered if we had these three ;) options? Hell, no. Never ever, as normal Space Marines have them, and our Captains would be on par with them if they had access to this equipment. Right now, they rely on the FC bubble to have an advantage in CC, and that only on the charge.

 

That´s what people are complaining about, Captains got "the nerf" when it made absolutely no sense at all, as they should lead their companies from the front-line, not from the shelf.

 

 

Snorri

[Gunslinger87]

You know what? I dont agree. How is the captain any worse than a regular C:SM captain? Except the fact that you cant give him a bike to make your bikers count as troops (and what BA would do that?) besides, assault marines counting as troops is already quite convenient. Aside from that? Pretty much the same...

 

Well besides the fact that you actually have MORE wargear options than a space marine captain....

 

What are you still complaining about?

 

Well, did you actually read the unit entry for the Captain? We have no access to artificer armour, digital weapons and relic blades. All of those are used by chapters which are characterised to be less of an artistic chapter than the Blood Angels when it comes to armour, little gadgets and weapons.

 

Would it be overpowered if we had these three ;) options? Hell, no. Never ever, as normal Space Marines have them, and our Captains would be on par with them if they had access to this equipment. Right now, they rely on the FC bubble to have an advantage in CC, and that only on the charge.

 

That´s what people are complaining about, Captains got "the nerf" when it made absolutely no sense at all, as they should lead their companies from the front-line, not from the shelf.

 

 

Snorri

 

Ok must have missed that somehow (checked in Army Builder) dont forget however, that you do have what basically is a melta pistol instead (hand flamer, i dunno) but those are also options... Id love my captain to have the option of popping a transport at range and killing the occupants. Or be able to threaten a land raider... etc A Thunder hammer isnt THAT bad you know. Neither is a single lightning claw compared to a relic blade.

 

4*2/3*5/6= 2,2222 (relic blade charge) 3*2/3*5/6 = 1,666

4*2/3*3/4= 2 (lightning claw charge) 3*2/3*3/4 = 1,5

 

And guess what? For those extra 15 points you can take the infernus pistol, gain all the benefits I mentioned (anti tank)

 

PLUS

 

1*2/3*5/6= 0,555

 

So for the same amount of points you get:

Relic blade captain = 2,2222 on charge 1,666 not (plus some change from a bolt pistol)

Lightning claw + pistol = 2,5555 on charge 1,5 not...

 

HMMMMMMM

 

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad :-D

 

Please, I think "nerfed" means something completely different. Stop complaining. You have a top tier codex.

 

I concede the point about artificer armour... but thats not enough to complain about. You can make a better build captain than a space marine one if you want...

[Crynn]

Wow so much controversy over this, I guess that was to be expected.

 

So after writting my thoughts on the Blood Angels HQ section and viewing some more thoughts from you all I've decided I'd put some time into the changes 'I' would make to the 'ELITES' section of the Blood Angels codex that I believe make sense fluff wise and dont mathamatically break the game. I don't think I command any particular authority to why these rules are fair but I will try to include reasons for my changes. Hope some of you get something out of this and others can just skip over it if the post is too long for them.

 

BLOOD ANGELS ELITES

 

SANGUINARY GUARD

We'll start with big one.

The elite of the elite of our chapter that aren't really so elite. They aren't used in competitive play as they are just a bit over costed. Well they do look cool. There isn't a whole lot of fluff for these guys but considering they number only 29 in the entire BA army they must be really 'elite' ok enough ramble.

 

- 2 handed weapons is fine, it suits the models and how they are equipped and makes sense for mounting angelus bolter on the wrist, so to single handed weapons I say that is foolish. All other two handed weapons in the SM armoury either add to Str (relic blades) or double it and make you strike last. striking last doesnt suit the BA finese nor does necessaraly bludgeoning something with a relic blade but I comparison can be made. I ended with +1 str and mastercrafted showing a little emphusis taken from str and put to finense as represents the models and codex pictures better

- I know we'd all like an invuln save but it shouldn't happen. They wear artificer armor which has never given an invuln and shouldnt change just to apease us.

- Any Sang guard may replace his angelus bolter for a combat shield (improved to a 5++ in CC) for no additional points cost.

I think storm shield would be too bulky on such an elegant looking unit, yes they would function well in game but it says in the codex they take wargear that matches the sanguinary guard heritiage. In saying that I think it would make sense for them to use smaller buckler type shields and would give them the combat shield option obviously enhanced to 5++ in combat.

 

 

TERMINATORS AND ASSAULT TERMINATORS

 

I wouldn't change anything. I do realise we pay 5+ points for the TH/SS variety however I believe this is because GW has realised how powerful that is in the SM codex and want to make the unit more points to match their efficiency, which I think is correct. Other than that they match their SM counterparts and there is no reason that this should be otherwise.

 

 

VANGUARD VETS

 

The unit that is useless in codex SM finds it's light in true angels of death codex!

- These boys are properelly point costed. I believe getting a slight reduction from the SM counterparts and with DoA they are quite reliable and well rounded

My one change

- Any captain may purchase 'Heroic Intervention' at an additional cost of 25-30 points, however the captain may only use HI when deep striking in with a Vang Vet squad and may not detatch from the aquad untill the players following turn.

My reason for this is it gives the captain a purpose over just taking a lib or chap which right now is the better and obvious choice. There is a high chance that any BA captain would have served as a Vang vet or equivilant before he became a captain in his own right and thus would have learned this process before. The reason I wouldnt allow the captain to break off is the same reason I'd make him have to deep strike with the squad, so that he cannot DS in and tie up a target all by himself. I dont believe this change would break the game in anyway as captains in the current are not super powered units.

 

 

FURISO AND LIBRARIAN FURISO.

- Lib dreads, maybe should have been a grey knight thing, but it also says in our codex blood angels have a preportionaly large amount of psychers compared to other chapters, so suck it Codex SM, we get this bad boy.

I think the standard Furiso is bang on personally

 

Lib drad specific

- - 5-10 points, I think most will agree he's just a little over costed.

- can take wargear options but no weapon options other than changing the storm bolter for a heavy flamer.

 

 

TECHMARINES

This unit hasn't been used in competitive gaming since before 3rd ed so i think this unit is lacking and always has been, but while it sucks in every addition of the SM codexes there is no reason ours should be any better at repairs or combat efficiency.

 

I think these changes should apply to all techmarines not just BA ones.

- -5 points per servitor, giving a reason to take them over devs, no IC status on techmarine with this unit

- 'Targeting Matrix' The Techmarines scanners, range finders and computer systems allow much more precise calculations for shooting. The tech marine may select one enemy unit within 24" of him and reduce it's cover save by 1 for the remainder of the shooting phase.

+10 points for the techmarine (note with servitors he would still work out cheaper with an added ability.

 

BA specifec rule

- Master Artificer, Such is the skill of the blood angel artificers that they have been known to produce relics of even greater craftmenship than that of their brother chapters. For each techmarine in a BA army the BA player may select one suit of artifcer armor in the army to have been exceptionally crafted and recieve a 5+ invulnerable save or one close combat weapon to be 'Master Crafted'. Special cahracters may not have their wargear altered in any way. (The non SC only is to stop dodgy tactics like giving meph the invuln, their wargear is what it is) I think this shows the blood angels skills in regards to crafting relics.

+20 points instead of the usual +10 I suggested

 

 

STERNGUARD

 

What a spacemarine should be.

- I love these guys, I couldn't think of a better way to represent standard vets, I wouldn't change a thing with them. but 1 point.

Does anyone think that they should have been left out of our dex like in the SW dex. Yes I love them and yes they are cool and yes we may probably have some but I think that with all our other elite options and general focus for our vets to go down the 'assault' path they might not really fit with all the other things we gained over codex SM and I know we didnt get some as well. After all the Vang vets we'd have in our chapter and then terminators would there really be many vets left to become sternguard. My feelings on this were rather varied so I am honestly not sure what would make sense fluff wise and what would be best for the game so I'll leave that up to you, would love to hear your opinions for this guys.

 

 

SANGUINARY PRIESTS

 

I am really happy with these guys. I believe that although IC status can be annoying, without it they would be too powerfull. They can still fight in combat you just have to be careful with who you engage in base to base CC. I think all this helps make the Sang Priest a unit that must be played well to utalize properly as apposed to just 'I stuck him in a squad, all is done'

- I know some people with disagree with this and I can totally understand where they are coming from. There are good arguements for and against IC here

 

CORBULO

demoted to an elites choice, or upgraded to an elites choice? I know where I prefer him! (hint it's elites)

- I have honestly found him to be bang on for points and a really interesting character that works well with all his fluff and I haven't seen really any complaints about him either.

- Heavens teeth = CC weapon that adds +1 to Corbulos str and gives him the rending special rule in CC. This is the only change I'd make, it is so he can benefit from furiuos charge in full. I also don't like CC weapons that always strike at a specifec strength no matter who would wield it. You telling me that a snotling and a wraithlord would both hit with that weapon at str 5? doesn't seem right. Really small easy fix.

 

 

As always thanks for reading, if you did, and I hope you guys can see something you like in this.

 

Regards

 

Crynn.

 

PS i will spell check it later as I'm at work right now and in a rush.

[Valerian]

I disagree with 1-8 as well..... can't even see where you are coming from with these.... Are you a space wolves player who just wants to see our army nerfed?

You must not have read the rest of my post, the paragraphs below the list of suggestions, in which I stated that I've got over 3,000 points worth of Blood Angels. Okay, technically they are 'Shadow Hunters', my fully painted DIY army that has been a counts-as Blood Angels army since back in 3rd Edition. I do also play Space Wolves (since 2nd Edition), Grey Knights (3rd Edition) and Orks (4th Edition). The point with this is that I'm not out to nerf the Blood Angels; trust me, they don't need nerfing. I played 4 or 5 games against 5th Edition Blood Angels this summer against different players with different lists, and won every game with my Space Wolves, so I'm not worried about the BA being too powerful at all. The problems that I have with the army list are primarily about balance, character, theme, and fitting with the background material. I'll explain below.

1. The curse is nice and unique, I've heard plenty of people crying about it and honestly I think they need to get a life. Its a game, and there are plenty of things that are annoying in certain armies. Without this ability Dante would need to be totally rebalanced. I've annoyed people on many forums saying this too, even people I have known for a long time but I find the crying to be really pathetic. Its as bad as people complaining about GK GM's one shotting eternal warriors.

Although I didn't start my Blood Angels counts-as until 3rd Edition, I've been following them since Rogue Trader. Dante is absolutely my favorite Chapter Master, so my Shadow Hunters commander, Captain Valerian, is a Dante counts-as. Unfortunately, for me at least, the 5th Edition version of Dante just doesn't feel right. I much prefer the PDF version better. The 'Curse' doesn't quite make sense, either, what is the 'fluff' justification for it? I can see having a Curse just like this against an enemy character model that you were in base-to-base contact with (a temporary nerf to the opponent), as a result of being up against Dante and his Death Mask of Sanguinius in direct combat, but not a 'permanent' nerf for the whole game against an enemy character that might never even come into contact with Dante. Dante isn't a Psyker, so how is this achieved 'in-universe'? It is for one an oddity, and for two fairly unbalanced for his points cost. Remember that your opponent might be paying around 250 points for his main character, too, and it is pretty rough on them when their effectiveness and survivability goes down significantly because of a Dante Curse. Anyway, I'm not happy about it, and this is a wish-list type of thread, so I'm just telling you folks that I would have done it differently.

So, no Curse is my Dante nerf, and I'd also drop his wounds to 3; I don't see a real fluff justification for 4. However, I do see fluff justification for Eternal Warrior so I'd have given him that instead, which more than makes up for the loss of 1 Wound. Dante no longer has a benefit to those nearby. One of the key background features of Dante has always been his Leadership and Inspirational Presence, so I would have much preferred he keep the Preferred Enemy boon, or something representative of that important characteristic. Instead he gets to make Sanguinary Guard into Troops choices, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and he gets to land where he wants when Deep Striking with his jump pack, which also doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

2. Remove the Sanguinor? Ummm why? Some people like a bit of character in their army, or a theme. He may not be the most amazing choice, and he is expensive, but everything isn't meant to be amazing.

I wouldn't have added the Sanguinor in the first place. What does he do for the army list? What gap does he fill in the Blood Angels Chapter background material? Where the hell did he come from? He is simply an oddity that there was no real reason to add, other than a designer thought he might be cool. You see, I'm not against adding new things and letting the army lists grow over the editions. The Stormraven is great, I love the idea, and fits in with Space-based Marine forces perfectly. Astorath is fine, he has a place in the Chapter and is a cool addition. The Sanguinary Guard are fine...somebody has to guard the poor souls in the Tower, so even they can be 'fit' into the Chapter, background material, and list. They all make sense, and are easily accepted as viable Marine/Blood Angels units. The Sanguinor, however, is out of the blue.

3. Mephiston is fine. He requires skill to use properly and can do some damage. Why would you want to make him an IC, if you can't sheild him from shooting then you probably need to look at how you play instead of 'problems' with the codex.

Similar to Dante, Mephiston just doesn't feel like the same Mephiston that has been around for nearly 20 years. In fluff, he is the only known Blood Angel to ever overcome the Red Thirst, and he was always just a notch above and beyond a regular Marine afterward. He's always been just a little stronger, tougher, faster, and meaner, and had significant psychic potential, too. Ultimately, he became the Chapter's Chief Librarian, and he had his own Honour Guard as befitting his position. The new Mephiston doesn't feel right at all anymore. He's more like a Marine-sized Monstrous Creature now, with stats that are off the charts, he has to fight on his own, and his Psychic Powers are all geared to either a) get him to combat, or b) decimate the foe once he's there. My problem isn't with how difficult it is, or is not, to play with him effectively. My problem is that he doesn't feel right anymore. He doesn't fit his years-long background material. Sure, he fits his new material (killing a Hive Fleet by himself), but that is just more nonsense that Mr. Ward made up to justify the damage he had done to a once-noble special character of our beloved Chapter).

4. Death Company could have cheaper jump packs, but not if they are controllable. I mean they are controllable now to a certain extent you just have to play smart and use vehicles effectively. Again its a player skill thing here.

Death Company work in a mechanized force just fine. You put them into any one of your several transport options and only let them disembark when they are right in front of their target. That's okay if you've got that type of army. With the new list, however, Death Company with Jump Packs have simply been made unplayable. When they aren't in a transport you can't control them at all. It doesn't help the the jump packs are overly expensive to the point of approaching the rediculous. You state that it is a player skill thing here, and it might be, but one alternative is more or less unworkable, and is not in balance in my opinion.

The upgrade Chaplains were a terrific addition in this edition of the codex; I love that idea - it makes perfect sense based on the backgound material, and is a good thing for the unit. However, that Chaplain should have been given the ability to 'control' the Rage of the Death Company; I know I am not the only one who feels this way. If that specific benefit is worth more, then they should have just charged a little more for the Chaplain to compensate for that.

5. Furioso dreads... they have weaknesses but thats to be expected. We could well see in the next few releases a real reason to use them as they are now.

Furioso Dreadnoughts have a couple options for their weapons and wargear; these options are good, they fit, and I've got no issues with that. However, when you decide that your Furioso is going to have Psychic powers, now all of a sudden they don't get any options. That simply doesn't make sense to me. They are still dreadnoughts. Giving them the options doesn't have a game-breaking impact on the list, either. Since there isn't a great reason to keep them from having any of the few options available to regular Furiosos, I'd have given the Furioso Librarians the same choices. Why not?

6. The Sanguinary Novitiate thing isn't a huge issue, would be nice, but if it was intended it would have been faq'd.

Yes, it certainly isn't a huge issue, I just find it odd. Out of an Honour Guard there is one guy that has a normal CCW and can't upgrade. Everybody else has options. The Blood Champion is stuck with what he comes with, too, but he himself is an option, so you don't have to take him if you don't want to, or if you prefer more 'tailorabilty' than what he offers. It isn't like the Novitiate would be getting anything for free, he would have to pay for it just like any other member of the squad, so why not? Like I said earlier, the purpose of this thread is for us to explain what we would have done differently, and allowing SNs to take weapons and wargear like the other Honour Guard members would have been how I would have designed the unit.

7. Captains are the weak HQ, every army has them and its unfortunate since some people liked them, but every choice can't be amazing.

They don't have to be amazing, but the should be a viable choice as compared with the other options. Blood Angels get 2 total HQ choices, like almost every other army, so if the Captain doesn't have some kind of important advantage he will never be taken. If he will never be taken, then what is the point of even including him in the army list? Librarians offer something other HQ choices do not (Psychic Powers), Rechlusiarchs offer something the other HQ choices to do not (Fearless and Rerolls to Hit). What do Captains offer? Not much, especially for their points. A few better weapons and wargear options (like the basic Codex Space Marines' Captains have) would really help. Even more importantly, a special ability that benefits friendly troops in some way (like Rites of Battle) would go a lot further toward making a simple, basic, Captain a competitive choice against other HQ alternatives. How many players do you know who take a Blood Angels Captain? If it is zero, then that isn't good list design.

8. Uhhh what? Probably worst suggestion I've seen. I mean sure its fine if you play a spam army, but some people actually want to try something that isn't mech, and FNP bubbles are extremely important if your playing a JP heavy list, particularly SG themed.

If that is your theme, then there are plenty of Sanguinary Priests to go around; you can get up to 9 from your Elites slots to support your army, if that is what you need. If you are doing an SG themed army then you've probably taken Dante so they count as Troops anyway, right?

One of the things that has proven the most frustrating in this edition is how Blood Angels players are playing their Sanguinary Priests. We've had to deal with folks who are proponents of keeping Priests in a transport, rather than disembarking and assaulting with the unit they've attached to. GW 'fixed' this in the FAQ/Errata by declaring that Furious Charge is only granted if the model is in the Priest's bubble when attacks are made, which just brings up more oddities (figuring out who is where at each initiative step, etc., etc.). In my mind something that could have been streamlined, simple, and intuitive is now convoluted and painful, and leads to folks trying to play them in a way that doesn't really fit the fluff. Blood Angels who try to avoid getting into combat!?!? The Sanguinary Priest should jump right into the fight with the rest of the Marines, and the player shouldn't have to overly worry about losing a fragile 1-Wound Independent Character in close combat.

By buffing only the unit they've been assigned to (joined for the whole game), their powers are nerfed a bit (but at least you wouldn't have to figure out whether FC and/or FnP applies at each Initiative step of a close combat. However, by removing their IC status they get a significant buff (no longer vulnerable to being singled out in close combat). Together, these two changes greatly simplify and speed up the game. You know that until the SP is gone, that unit has FC and FnP throughout the battle, no tape measuring required, and no weird attempts to make the SP avoid fighting the enemy.

-----------------

I understand that not everybody will agree with me, my approach, or my own design philosophy and that is okay. It is to be expected, and we can never come to 100% concensus. However, I want you to at least understand why I have recommended the changes that I have, and that it is in the interest of making the codex, and the army list better than it currently is.

[Crynn]

I disagree with 1-8 as well..... can't even see where you are coming from with these.... Are you a space wolves player who just wants to see our army nerfed?

You must not have read the rest of my post, the paragraphs below the list of suggestions, in which I stated that I've got over 3,000 points worth of Blood Angels. Okay, technically they are 'Shadow Hunters', my fully painted DIY army that has been a counts-as Blood Angels army since back in 3rd Edition. I do also play Space Wolves (since 2nd Edition), Grey Knights (3rd Edition) and Orks (4th Edition). The point with this is that I'm not out to nerf the Blood Angels; trust me, they don't need nerfing. I played 4 or 5 games against 5th Edition Blood Angels this summer against different players with different lists, and won every game with my Space Wolves, so I'm not worried about the BA being too powerful at all. The problems that I have with the army list are primarily about balance, character, theme, and fitting with the background material. I'll explain below.

1. The curse is nice and unique, I've heard plenty of people crying about it and honestly I think they need to get a life. Its a game, and there are plenty of things that are annoying in certain armies. Without this ability Dante would need to be totally rebalanced. I've annoyed people on many forums saying this too, even people I have known for a long time but I find the crying to be really pathetic. Its as bad as people complaining about GK GM's one shotting eternal warriors.

Although I didn't start my Blood Angels counts-as until 3rd Edition, I've been following them since Rogue Trader. Dante is absolutely my favorite Chapter Master, so my Shadow Hunters commander, Captain Valerian, is a Dante counts-as. Unfortunately, for me at least, the 5th Edition version of Dante just doesn't feel right. I much prefer the PDF version better. The 'Curse' doesn't quite make sense, either, what is the 'fluff' justification for it? I can see having a Curse just like this against an enemy character model that you were in base-to-base contact with (a temporary nerf to the opponent), as a result of being up against Dante and his Death Mask of Sanguinius in direct combat, but not a 'permanent' nerf for the whole game against an enemy character that might never even come into contact with Dante. Dante isn't a Psyker, so how is this achieved 'in-universe'? It is for one an oddity, and for two fairly unbalanced for his points cost. Remember that your opponent might be paying around 250 points for his main character, too, and it is pretty rough on them when their effectiveness and survivability goes down significantly because of a Dante Curse. Anyway, I'm not happy about it, and this is a wish-list type of thread, so I'm just telling you folks that I would have done it differently.

So, no Curse is my Dante nerf, and I'd also drop his wounds to 3; I don't see a real fluff justification for 4. However, I do see fluff justification for Eternal Warrior so I'd have given him that instead, which more than makes up for the loss of 1 Wound. Dante no longer has a benefit to those nearby. One of the key background features of Dante has always been his Leadership and Inspirational Presence, so I would have much preferred he keep the Preferred Enemy boon, or something representative of that important characteristic. Instead he gets to make Sanguinary Guard into Troops choices, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, and he gets to land where he wants when Deep Striking with his jump pack, which also doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

2. Remove the Sanguinor? Ummm why? Some people like a bit of character in their army, or a theme. He may not be the most amazing choice, and he is expensive, but everything isn't meant to be amazing.

I wouldn't have added the Sanguinor in the first place. What does he do for the army list? What gap does he fill in the Blood Angels Chapter background material? Where the hell did he come from? He is simply an oddity that there was no real reason to add, other than a designer thought he might be cool. You see, I'm not against adding new things and letting the army lists grow over the editions. The Stormraven is great, I love the idea, and fits in with Space-based Marine forces perfectly. Astorath is fine, he has a place in the Chapter and is a cool addition. The Sanguinary Guard are fine...somebody has to guard the poor souls in the Tower, so even they can be 'fit' into the Chapter, background material, and list. They all make sense, and are easily accepted as viable Marine/Blood Angels units. The Sanguinor, however, is out of the blue.

3. Mephiston is fine. He requires skill to use properly and can do some damage. Why would you want to make him an IC, if you can't sheild him from shooting then you probably need to look at how you play instead of 'problems' with the codex.

Similar to Dante, Mephiston just doesn't feel like the same Mephiston that has been around for nearly 20 years. In fluff, he is the only known Blood Angel to ever overcome the Red Thirst, and he was always just a notch above and beyond a regular Marine afterward. He's always been just a little stronger, tougher, faster, and meaner, and had significant psychic potential, too. Ultimately, he became the Chapter's Chief Librarian, and he had his own Honour Guard as befitting his position. The new Mephiston doesn't feel right at all anymore. He's more like a Marine-sized Monstrous Creature now, with stats that are off the charts, he has to fight on his own, and his Psychic Powers are all geared to either a) get him to combat, or :) decimate the foe once he's there. My problem isn't with how difficult it is, or is not, to play with him effectively. My problem is that he doesn't feel right anymore. He doesn't fit his years-long background material. Sure, he fits his new material (killing a Hive Fleet by himself), but that is just more nonsense that Mr. Ward made up to justify the damage he had done to a once-noble special character of our beloved Chapter).

4. Death Company could have cheaper jump packs, but not if they are controllable. I mean they are controllable now to a certain extent you just have to play smart and use vehicles effectively. Again its a player skill thing here.

Death Company work in a mechanized force just fine. You put them into any one of your several transport options and only let them disembark when they are right in front of their target. That's okay if you've got that type of army. With the new list, however, Death Company with Jump Packs have simply been made unplayable. When they aren't in a transport you can't control them at all. It doesn't help the the jump packs are overly expensive to the point of approaching the rediculous. You state that it is a player skill thing here, and it might be, but one alternative is more or less unworkable, and is not in balance in my opinion.

The upgrade Chaplains were a terrific addition in this edition of the codex; I love that idea - it makes perfect sense based on the backgound material, and is a good thing for the unit. However, that Chaplain should have been given the ability to 'control' the Rage of the Death Company; I know I am not the only one who feels this way. If that specific benefit is worth more, then they should have just charged a little more for the Chaplain to compensate for that.

5. Furioso dreads... they have weaknesses but thats to be expected. We could well see in the next few releases a real reason to use them as they are now.

Furioso Dreadnoughts have a couple options for their weapons and wargear; these options are good, they fit, and I've got no issues with that. However, when you decide that your Furioso is going to have Psychic powers, now all of a sudden they don't get any options. That simply doesn't make sense to me. They are still dreadnoughts. Giving them the options doesn't have a game-breaking impact on the list, either. Since there isn't a great reason to keep them from having any of the few options available to regular Furiosos, I'd have given the Furioso Librarians the same choices. Why not?

6. The Sanguinary Novitiate thing isn't a huge issue, would be nice, but if it was intended it would have been faq'd.

Yes, it certainly isn't a huge issue, I just find it odd. Out of an Honour Guard there is one guy that has a normal CCW and can't upgrade. Everybody else has options. The Blood Champion is stuck with what he comes with, too, but he himself is an option, so you don't have to take him if you don't want to, or if you prefer more 'tailorabilty' than what he offers. It isn't like the Novitiate would be getting anything for free, he would have to pay for it just like any other member of the squad, so why not? Like I said earlier, the purpose of this thread is for us to explain what we would have done differently, and allowing SNs to take weapons and wargear like the other Honour Guard members would have been how I would have designed the unit.

7. Captains are the weak HQ, every army has them and its unfortunate since some people liked them, but every choice can't be amazing.

They don't have to be amazing, but the should be a viable choice as compared with the other options. Blood Angels get 2 total HQ choices, like almost every other army, so if the Captain doesn't have some kind of important advantage he will never be taken. If he will never be taken, then what is the point of even including him in the army list? Librarians offer something other HQ choices do not (Psychic Powers), Rechlusiarchs offer something the other HQ choices to do not (Fearless and Rerolls to Hit). What do Captains offer? Not much, especially for their points. A few better weapons and wargear options (like the basic Codex Space Marines' Captains have) would really help. Even more importantly, a special ability that benefits friendly troops in some way (like Rites of Battle) would go a lot further toward making a simple, basic, Captain a competitive choice against other HQ alternatives. How many players do you know who take a Blood Angels Captain? If it is zero, then that isn't good list design.

8. Uhhh what? Probably worst suggestion I've seen. I mean sure its fine if you play a spam army, but some people actually want to try something that isn't mech, and FNP bubbles are extremely important if your playing a JP heavy list, particularly SG themed.

If that is your theme, then there are plenty of Sanguinary Priests to go around; you can get up to 9 from your Elites slots to support your army, if that is what you need. If you are doing an SG themed army then you've probably taken Dante so they count as Troops anyway, right?

One of the things that has proven the most frustrating in this edition is how Blood Angels players are playing their Sanguinary Priests. We've had to deal with folks who are proponents of keeping Priests in a transport, rather than disembarking and assaulting with the unit they've attached to. GW 'fixed' this in the FAQ/Errata by declaring that Furious Charge is only granted if the model is in the Priest's bubble when attacks are made, which just brings up more oddities (figuring out who is where at each initiative step, etc., etc.). In my mind something that could have been streamlined, simple, and intuitive is now convoluted and painful, and leads to folks trying to play them in a way that doesn't really fit the fluff. Blood Angels who try to avoid getting into combat!?!? The Sanguinary Priest should jump right into the fight with the rest of the Marines, and the player shouldn't have to overly worry about losing a fragile 1-Wound Independent Character in close combat.

By buffing only the unit they've been assigned to (joined for the whole game), their powers are nerfed a bit (but at least you wouldn't have to figure out whether FC and/or FnP applies at each Initiative step of a close combat. However, by removing their IC status they get a significant buff (no longer vulnerable to being singled out in close combat). Together, these two changes greatly simplify and speed up the game. You know that until the SP is gone, that unit has FC and FnP throughout the battle, no tape measuring required, and no weird attempts to make the SP avoid fighting the enemy.

-----------------

I understand that not everybody will agree with me, my approach, or my own design philosophy and that is okay. It is to be expected, and we can never come to 100% concensus. However, I want you to at least understand why I have recommended the changes that I have, and that it is in the interest of making the codex, and the army list better than it currently is.

I don't know if you meant to but thank you for completely backing up my original post. I agree with almost everything you have said, it is pretty much exactly what I stated before down to the point of Dantes mask neg 1 wound and eternal warrior. The only thing I disagree with is priests. The IC part sucks and they should want to go head long into the fight however I also believe that unit is is in some ways a medic and therefore should be an IC with a bubble to represent his area of influence where he can effective use his ability to aid his brothers. I don't think his healing should be confined to one squad I believe it should be a bubble and without IC he'd be too powerful. I left out Sang Priests in my ELITE section run down as in the half an hour time I wrote and thought about that post I didn't come up with a solution to this problem, I shall get on it soon.

Regards

Crynn

On a side note love your counts as dante, really tastefully and unique scheme for him, you should be proud.

[Zealadin]

I skimmed over your post when I saw the first few points basically say "it doesn't feel right". Thats unfortunate for YOU but plenty of people don't have any issues, and have figured out great ways to make their own count as characters, something I think this codex does extremely well, since almost all the HQ choices can be used to make a 'count-as' personalised leader. Mephy is a bit hardcore stats-wise for your run of the mill counts as, but then its not hard to figure out something that fits.

The Captain is unfortunate but not game breaking, he is meant to be a tactician in the codex not the uber amazing killing machine, at least thats the 'feel' I get.

 

There also seems to be quite an ironic trend of "you didn't read my post" finger pointing. You answer all my valid arguements with a 'feeling'..... If you dislike the units don't use them. Plenty of other options like kitting out a captain if its such a huge issue. Or just don't bother using the 'curse' rule. I can guarantee your opponent won't mind. Problem solved. You can pretend like you just forgot.

 

On the Mephy issue - he is an extremely unique creation when you look at the codexes out at the moment, he is like a miniature Wraithlord but better. Its extremely nice to see GWS looking outside the square while creating a character so that he can be really really tough, and still have some glaring weaknesses. Its changed since earlier editions, thats unfortunate, but I personally think (just my opinion) that clinging to old lore and then shoving it in peoples faces to try and disqualify them from having an opinion is rude, elitest and brings nothing to the arguement.

I also think that comparing stats to other releases adds nothing to the table, GWS shouldn't be worrying about people crying that some nameless creation has a better WS than abbadon the biggest badass ever, its petty and just constrains their ability to actually create interesting armies and characters. Stats are used to balance a character or unit in gameplay, and is not meant to be read into as some huge relativity issue.

 

Also can you PLEASE not quote people then put your own comments INSIDE the quotes Crynn, #1 thats not what quotes are for, #2 its just confusing and annoying for readers, #3 it makes YOUR comments look like my posts, and #4 I don't read it unless its in a different colour text so I can easily see the difference.

 

I do agree with you on several of the points you made in later posts however.

Sang G. Especially.

The Dread thing as well, I actually have to admit (since I'm not hugely into Dreads) I didn't see that a Lib Dread was 50 points extra, and I wasn't that impressed before I knew that, so once I did I pretty much put the entire issue out of my mind! Ideally I think it should get the DC Dread rule of 'none shall stay my wrath' or whatever it is. Its too easily taken out of the game as it stands.

Infact I pretty much agree with all your suggestions in your second latest post. Esp the captain one.

[daboarder]

you know what would be cool, giving sternguard the option to buy jump-packs

[Valerian]

I don't know if you meant to but thank you for completely backing up my original post. I agree with almost everything you have said, it is pretty much exactly what I stated before down to the point of Dantes mask neg 1 wound and eternal warrior. The only thing I disagree with is priests. The IC part sucks and they should want to go head long into the fight however I also believe that unit is is in some ways a medic and therefore should be an IC with a bubble to represent his area of influence where he can effective use his ability to aid his brothers. I don't think his healing should be confined to one squad I believe it should be a bubble and without IC he'd be too powerful. I left out Sang Priests in my ELITE section run down as in the half an hour time I wrote and thought about that post I didn't come up with a solution to this problem, I shall get on it soon.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

On a side note love your counts as dante, really tastefully and unique scheme for him, you should be proud.

 

Crynn,

 

Yeah, I think you and I are largely seeing eye-to-eye on this. At least where some don't agree, some do. Regarding the Sanguinary Priest, most characters that produce "boon" type of effects do so for units, rather than bubbles it seems. Standard Marines get an Apothecary in their Command Squads as an option. The Apothecary fills almost (but not quite!) the same role as our Sanguinary Priests, but he provides the benefit only to the rest of the Command Squad and any attached characters. Likewise, an Ork Painboy provides FnP to his Nobz unit and any attached characters. When a Chaplain, Wolf Priest, or similar joins a unit, they provide their benefits only to the unit. Although all of these "influential hero-types" could be justified in providing benefits to everybody nearby, in the current game mechanic they typically only do so for the units they have joined. If I were writing the codex I would have simply followed the same trend with our Priests.

 

The picture I provided was painted by Mr. Jeffrey Schiller for his "Lightning Strike" counts-as Blood Angels. My Shadow Hunters were inspired by his work, but are not nearly as well painted, therefore I posted his version rather than my own. The point of the picture, however, was to demonstrate that I am invested in the Blood Angels and do care about the quality of the codex.

 

Best Regards,

 

V

[SnorriSnorrison]

Ok must have missed that somehow (checked in Army Builder) dont forget however, that you do have what basically is a melta pistol instead (hand flamer, i dunno) but those are also options... Id love my captain to have the option of popping a transport at range and killing the occupants. Or be able to threaten a land raider... etc A Thunder hammer isnt THAT bad you know. Neither is a single lightning claw compared to a relic blade.

 

4*2/3*5/6= 2,2222 (relic blade charge) 3*2/3*5/6 = 1,666

4*2/3*3/4= 2 (lightning claw charge) 3*2/3*3/4 = 1,5

 

And guess what? For those extra 15 points you can take the infernus pistntionol, gain all the benefits I meed (anti tank)

 

PLUS

 

1*2/3*5/6= 0,555

 

So for the same amount of points you get:

Relic blade captain = 2,2222 on charge 1,666 not (plus some change from a bolt pistol)

Lightning claw + pistol = 2,5555 on charge 1,5 not...

 

HMMMMMMM

 

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad :-D

 

Please, I think "nerfed" means something completely different. Stop complaining. You have a top tier codex.

 

I concede the point about artificer armour... but thats not enough to complain about. You can make a better build captain than a space marine one if you want...

 

I am sorry, Sir, but mathhammer never impressed me much. I am a fluff gamer, collector and painter. And when it comes down to the fluff behind the Captain´s options, then I have the right to complain.

 

Artficer armour I´ve been waiting for since we´ve had the .pdf, and after I saw the Glaive Encarmine I wished my Captain would be able to use them, either as they are right now or as relic blade, just to represent the fluff within the rules. This was totally possible, and it would not have been overpowered.

 

Yes, we have Infernus Pistols. So what? It has been Dante´s toy for a long time, so it was just a matter of time until the entire chapter would have access to this wargear. But they don´t benefit us much in combat(yeah, +1 attack, but hey) where we and our Captains are supposed to shine. I hate to say hit, but compared to the Reclusiarchs, Librarians or special characters, the Captain is no match for them.

 

 

Snorri

[Gunslinger87]

Ok must have missed that somehow (checked in Army Builder) dont forget however, that you do have what basically is a melta pistol instead (hand flamer, i dunno) but those are also options... Id love my captain to have the option of popping a transport at range and killing the occupants. Or be able to threaten a land raider... etc A Thunder hammer isnt THAT bad you know. Neither is a single lightning claw compared to a relic blade.

 

4*2/3*5/6= 2,2222 (relic blade charge) 3*2/3*5/6 = 1,666

4*2/3*3/4= 2 (lightning claw charge) 3*2/3*3/4 = 1,5

 

And guess what? For those extra 15 points you can take the infernus pistntionol, gain all the benefits I meed (anti tank)

 

PLUS

 

1*2/3*5/6= 0,555

 

So for the same amount of points you get:

Relic blade captain = 2,2222 on charge 1,666 not (plus some change from a bolt pistol)

Lightning claw + pistol = 2,5555 on charge 1,5 not...

 

HMMMMMMM

 

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad :-D

 

Please, I think "nerfed" means something completely different. Stop complaining. You have a top tier codex.

 

I concede the point about artificer armour... but thats not enough to complain about. You can make a better build captain than a space marine one if you want...

 

I am sorry, Sir, but mathhammer never impressed me much. I am a fluff gamer, collector and painter. And when it comes down to the fluff behind the Captain´s options, then I have the right to complain.

 

Artficer armour I´ve been waiting for since we´ve had the .pdf, and after I saw the Glaive Encarmine I wished my Captain would be able to use them, either as they are right now or as relic blade, just to represent the fluff within the rules. This was totally possible, and it would not have been overpowered.

 

Yes, we have Infernus Pistols. So what? It has been Dante´s toy for a long time, so it was just a matter of time until the entire chapter would have access to this wargear. But they don´t benefit us much in combat(yeah, +1 attack, but hey) where we and our Captains are supposed to shine. I hate to say hit, but compared to the Reclusiarchs, Librarians or special characters, the Captain is no match for them.

 

 

Snorri

 

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

[Grey Mage]

I skimmed over your post when I saw the first few points basically say "it doesn't feel right". Thats unfortunate for YOU but plenty of people don't have any issues, and have figured out great ways to make their own count as characters, something I think this codex does extremely well, since almost all the HQ choices can be used to make a 'count-as' personalised leader. Mephy is a bit hardcore stats-wise for your run of the mill counts as, but then its not hard to figure out something that fits.

The Captain is unfortunate but not game breaking, he is meant to be a tactician in the codex not the uber amazing killing machine, at least thats the 'feel' I get.

Alot of people dont have a problem with Slaaneshi characters in Khorn Bezerker squads.

 

That doesnt mean its not a slap in the face to all established fluff, that it makes any sense in world, or that the person who made allowance for it in the codex wasnt being a complete idiot. Now of course thats just my opinion- but alot of veterans agree with it. Alot of new players never even think about it simply because theyve never known anything else. Does this make either group right? Not necessarily, but I find it consistent that the well thought out in world looks at the situation find this absurd.

 

Oftentimes the 'feel' of something is just as important as its crunch. When we lose sight of that we get monstrosities like, for example, the Chaos codex.

 

I also find it irnoic how you accuse Valerian of being elitist, and rude for stating his personal opinion as such- and then go on to deride him and Crynn as if you were the greatest pundit of 40k.

 

Please, take a step back and chill out before going off like that again.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

 

It´s not about having everything better. Its about the principle. I don´t care about melta-shots when this means that I have to lose other wargear that rightfully belongs into the Captain´s entry. It just belongs there, no matter what Matt Ward says, or anybody else from his team.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Our Captain is not on par with C:SM Captains when it comes to individuality. Right now, we need twin lightning claws along with JP to make our Captain viable in CC(not that they are bad), but as I said, I am a painter, and I rather liked to have swords or axes on my Captain(s) then LC. With C:SM, you are able to create a Captain that´s better armoured and geared for CC than with our Codex, even though that the Blood Angels are thought to be CC specialists. Again, it´s about principle.

 

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

 

 

I am restricted to this, as I use C:BA. My Captain consists of Sanguinary Guard parts, but the wargear is still only Powerweapon, Infernus Pistol and JP when he´s supposed to have artificer armour and Glaive Encarmine.

I don´t even care that much for the relic blade. It´s the armour that bugs me.

 

 

Snorri

[daboarder]

what dissapointed me about the BA captains was that I waited all through 5th to equipe my captain with a tasy relic blade and SS with JP, then when the wolf codex came out I realised that they were giving each codex a unique weapon this exicited me even more, then they gave us a glaive encarmine.....a 2-handed mastercrafted power weapon.....ok it has its uses but I think it would have been vastly better as a 1 handed option but the point is that our captains the LEADERS of the chapter cant requisition one.....um ok.

 

just my 2c

[Crynn]

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

 

It´s not about having everything better. Its about the principle. I don´t care about melta-shots when this means that I have to lose other wargear that rightfully belongs into the Captain´s entry. It just belongs there, no matter what Matt Ward says, or anybody else from his team.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Our Captain is not on par with C:SM Captains when it comes to individuality. Right now, we need twin lightning claws along with JP to make our Captain viable in CC(not that they are bad), but as I said, I am a painter, and I rather liked to have swords or axes on my Captain(s) then LC. With C:SM, you are able to create a Captain that´s better armoured and geared for CC than with our Codex, even though that the Blood Angels are thought to be CC specialists. Again, it´s about principle.

 

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

 

 

I am restricted to this, as I use C:BA. My Captain consists of Sanguinary Guard parts, but the wargear is still only Powerweapon, Infernus Pistol and JP when he´s supposed to have artificer armour and Glaive Encarmine.

I don´t even care that much for the relic blade. It´s the armour that bugs me.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Wow I never thought I would agree with a strictly fluff gamer but snorri is asolutely right and to boot I only suggest things in fluff that don't break the game mathamatically as I am one for math hammer and these options do not change the game mechanic to the point where they break or even come close to significantly changing it.

 

Oh and Gunslinger, you do realize your entire arguement for why our captain is better than the SM one is due to the fact we can get inferno pistols? Seriously? So in your mind an inferno pistol is better than having all these entries in your wargear section. Artificer armor, relic blade, digital weapons etc etc, your lack of reasoning into your arguement is borderline idiocy. No one other than you would ever argue that a melta pistol tops that and I think I can safely say that again, "NO ONE". Oh and your Math is for such a specific situation, for every situation you can make a ba captain better than the sm one i could find 3 where it is the other way around, so you've done vehicles as your better one because at meq we loose again, it goes to twin lightning claws and a digital weapon. then we lose to monsterous creatures toughness 5 and above oh and then to geq infantry units, not to mention me aren't as tough against non power wielding units unless we take termie armor and that is an entire different kettle of fish.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

On a side note maybe we should move on from the captain, I think its general consensus that most people think that more wargear options are fair, I dont think we need 20 more posts about it, maybe look into other parts of codex? I had a look at elites in our codex in an above post and thought of a few things I'd liked to have been different, what would you guys like to change int hat catagory?

[Crynn]

I skimmed over your post when I saw the first few points basically say "it doesn't feel right". Thats unfortunate for YOU but plenty of people don't have any issues, and have figured out great ways to make their own count as characters, something I think this codex does extremely well, since almost all the HQ choices can be used to make a 'count-as' personalised leader. Mephy is a bit hardcore stats-wise for your run of the mill counts as, but then its not hard to figure out something that fits.

The Captain is unfortunate but not game breaking,

 

I love the fact you agree with him but then say these'problems' don't need to be changed. Meph stats a bit off, our captain a bit wargear lacking but thats fine... You do realize that this is a wish list thread and thus probably a good place to suggest ideas that would rectify these self confessed problems you are discussing. This isnt a thread of 'is our codex playable, because I think we all agree it's a very competitive codex, I think it's also pretty safe to say that there are some pretty obvious little mistakes that could use some tinkering.

 

Coming into this thread with a 'your codex is good as is and shouldn't be changed because of it' attitude really doesn't help anyone. Go find a 'BA's are crap' thread and argue there where your words won't fall on deaf ears.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Gunslinger87]

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

 

It´s not about having everything better. Its about the principle. I don´t care about melta-shots when this means that I have to lose other wargear that rightfully belongs into the Captain´s entry. It just belongs there, no matter what Matt Ward says, or anybody else from his team.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Our Captain is not on par with C:SM Captains when it comes to individuality. Right now, we need twin lightning claws along with JP to make our Captain viable in CC(not that they are bad), but as I said, I am a painter, and I rather liked to have swords or axes on my Captain(s) then LC. With C:SM, you are able to create a Captain that´s better armoured and geared for CC than with our Codex, even though that the Blood Angels are thought to be CC specialists. Again, it´s about principle.

 

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

 

 

I am restricted to this, as I use C:BA. My Captain consists of Sanguinary Guard parts, but the wargear is still only Powerweapon, Infernus Pistol and JP when he´s supposed to have artificer armour and Glaive Encarmine.

I don´t even care that much for the relic blade. It´s the armour that bugs me.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Wow I never thought I would agree with a strictly fluff gamer but snorri is asolutely right and to boot I only suggest things in fluff that don't break the game mathamatically as I am one for math hammer and these options do not change the game mechanic to the point where they break or even come close to significantly changing it.

 

Oh and Gunslinger, you do realize your entire arguement for why our captain is better than the SM one is due to the fact we can get inferno pistols? Seriously? So in your mind an inferno pistol is better than having all these entries in your wargear section. Artificer armor, relic blade, digital weapons etc etc, your lack of reasoning into your arguement is borderline idiocy. No one other than you would ever argue that a melta pistol tops that and I think I can safely say that again, "NO ONE". Oh and your Math is for such a specific situation, for every situation you can make a ba captain better than the sm one i could find 3 where it is the other way around, so you've done vehicles as your better one because at meq we loose again, it goes to twin lightning claws and a digital weapon. then we lose to monsterous creatures toughness 5 and above oh and then to geq infantry units, not to mention me aren't as tough against non power wielding units unless we take termie armor and that is an entire different kettle of fish.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

On a side note maybe we should move on from the captain, I think its general consensus that most people think that more wargear options are fair, I dont think we need 20 more posts about it, maybe look into other parts of codex? I had a look at elites in our codex in an above post and thought of a few things I'd liked to have been different, what would you guys like to change int hat catagory?

 

 

Ehm, where is the etc etc? Point it out to me please. And kindly do it without insulting me in the process.

 

PS you can have twin lightning claws as well and taking the 10pts for digital weapons actually lowers your captains effectiveness per point. I just dont accept that. I am not saying your captain is better at everything anyways.

 

Im just wondering why youd want everything to be on par with C:SM + extra. Your better somewhere, worse somewhere (and in this case, there is an argument whether that is even true, since far from everyone has the builds either of us are talking about)

 

Just accept it.

 

And if I am so wrong, somebody else please tell me. (and please do look at the numbers, dont just say woo hooo , we dont have relic blades and artificer armour, our captain is absolutely terrible and unusable...)

[SnorriSnorrison]

I will send you a PM, gunslinger. This thread is not only about Captains. :D

 

 

Snorri

[Crynn]

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

 

It´s not about having everything better. Its about the principle. I don´t care about melta-shots when this means that I have to lose other wargear that rightfully belongs into the Captain´s entry. It just belongs there, no matter what Matt Ward says, or anybody else from his team.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Our Captain is not on par with C:SM Captains when it comes to individuality. Right now, we need twin lightning claws along with JP to make our Captain viable in CC(not that they are bad), but as I said, I am a painter, and I rather liked to have swords or axes on my Captain(s) then LC. With C:SM, you are able to create a Captain that´s better armoured and geared for CC than with our Codex, even though that the Blood Angels are thought to be CC specialists. Again, it´s about principle.

 

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

 

 

I am restricted to this, as I use C:BA. My Captain consists of Sanguinary Guard parts, but the wargear is still only Powerweapon, Infernus Pistol and JP when he´s supposed to have artificer armour and Glaive Encarmine.

I don´t even care that much for the relic blade. It´s the armour that bugs me.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Wow I never thought I would agree with a strictly fluff gamer but snorri is asolutely right and to boot I only suggest things in fluff that don't break the game mathamatically as I am one for math hammer and these options do not change the game mechanic to the point where they break or even come close to significantly changing it.

 

Oh and Gunslinger, you do realize your entire arguement for why our captain is better than the SM one is due to the fact we can get inferno pistols? Seriously? So in your mind an inferno pistol is better than having all these entries in your wargear section. Artificer armor, relic blade, digital weapons etc etc, your lack of reasoning into your arguement is borderline idiocy. No one other than you would ever argue that a melta pistol tops that and I think I can safely say that again, "NO ONE". Oh and your Math is for such a specific situation, for every situation you can make a ba captain better than the sm one i could find 3 where it is the other way around, so you've done vehicles as your better one because at meq we loose again, it goes to twin lightning claws and a digital weapon. then we lose to monsterous creatures toughness 5 and above oh and then to geq infantry units, not to mention me aren't as tough against non power wielding units unless we take termie armor and that is an entire different kettle of fish.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

On a side note maybe we should move on from the captain, I think its general consensus that most people think that more wargear options are fair, I dont think we need 20 more posts about it, maybe look into other parts of codex? I had a look at elites in our codex in an above post and thought of a few things I'd liked to have been different, what would you guys like to change int hat catagory?

 

 

Ehm, where is the etc etc? Point it out to me please. And kindly do it without insulting me in the process.

 

PS you can have twin lightning claws as well and taking the 10pts for digital weapons actually lowers your captains effectiveness per point. I just dont accept that. I am not saying your captain is better at everything anyways.

 

Im just wondering why youd want everything to be on par with C:SM + extra. Your better somewhere, worse somewhere (and in this case, there is an argument whether that is even true, since far from everyone has the builds either of us are talking about)

 

Just accept it.

 

And if I am so wrong, somebody else please tell me. (and please do look at the numbers, dont just say woo hooo , we dont have relic blades and artificer armour, our captain is absolutely terrible and unusable...)

 

 

Wow you just changed your arguement from 'is better' to 'i never said it was better you have things that are better and things that are worse in the sm codex'. Nuff said

 

And yes digi weapons are useless on lightning claws I'm more showing the lack of equipment we have. On a relic blade or power weapon it could be very good. Sorry if you were insulted by what I said but your math doesnt help your arguement when there is to many conflicting examples of where our captain isn't even on PAR with the SM and for no good reason. Yes we should have thing that are different better and not as good but captains shouldnt be one of them, the only thing we should have as negatives on marines is points costs, other than that we dont have any reason for any of our units to be worse than theirs minus the ones we obviously don't have access too.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Gunslinger87]

Yes and I am telling you, your captain is still better than a regular captain. You cant have everything better. You cant argue the maths in close combat, thats pure statistics. Plus the ability to dish out those melta shots... i think thats enough of a counterbalance. The calculation was there only in anticipation of hearing how great the relic blade and I5 hits are on regular captains. Well the Lightning claw and pistol combo kills more for same points AND allows that anti-tank.

 

 

Tell me how this is a nerfed character, I just cant see it.

 

I wouldnt argue if your captain could only take a power weapon, had fewer attacks, couldnt take a jump pack or something... as is? Sorry, Im still not convinced.

 

 

It´s not about having everything better. Its about the principle. I don´t care about melta-shots when this means that I have to lose other wargear that rightfully belongs into the Captain´s entry. It just belongs there, no matter what Matt Ward says, or anybody else from his team.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know if Im the only one thinking this... Especially those guys that say "yeah our captain is not good but we have all these goodies to play with". From my POV, your captain may in fact be even better, why dont you think so?

 

(and dont say there are better options, because then the only argument is to make this one even better and then you get in a loop. So why can a captain be as good as Dante? we must make Dante stronger...)

 

Our Captain is not on par with C:SM Captains when it comes to individuality. Right now, we need twin lightning claws along with JP to make our Captain viable in CC(not that they are bad), but as I said, I am a painter, and I rather liked to have swords or axes on my Captain(s) then LC. With C:SM, you are able to create a Captain that´s better armoured and geared for CC than with our Codex, even though that the Blood Angels are thought to be CC specialists. Again, it´s about principle.

 

 

Edit: A fluff gamer and painter isnt restricted as such btw. Nobody can tell you you cant give your captain a power weapon and model it as a relic blade, or have nice artificer armour and play it as power armour. That just isnt an argument... I would also like an infernus pistol... And if Im here willing to trade the relic blade for it (even artificer armour to boot) then you cant be that bad off.

 

 

I am restricted to this, as I use C:BA. My Captain consists of Sanguinary Guard parts, but the wargear is still only Powerweapon, Infernus Pistol and JP when he´s supposed to have artificer armour and Glaive Encarmine.

I don´t even care that much for the relic blade. It´s the armour that bugs me.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Wow I never thought I would agree with a strictly fluff gamer but snorri is asolutely right and to boot I only suggest things in fluff that don't break the game mathamatically as I am one for math hammer and these options do not change the game mechanic to the point where they break or even come close to significantly changing it.

 

Oh and Gunslinger, you do realize your entire arguement for why our captain is better than the SM one is due to the fact we can get inferno pistols? Seriously? So in your mind an inferno pistol is better than having all these entries in your wargear section. Artificer armor, relic blade, digital weapons etc etc, your lack of reasoning into your arguement is borderline idiocy. No one other than you would ever argue that a melta pistol tops that and I think I can safely say that again, "NO ONE". Oh and your Math is for such a specific situation, for every situation you can make a ba captain better than the sm one i could find 3 where it is the other way around, so you've done vehicles as your better one because at meq we loose again, it goes to twin lightning claws and a digital weapon. then we lose to monsterous creatures toughness 5 and above oh and then to geq infantry units, not to mention me aren't as tough against non power wielding units unless we take termie armor and that is an entire different kettle of fish.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

On a side note maybe we should move on from the captain, I think its general consensus that most people think that more wargear options are fair, I dont think we need 20 more posts about it, maybe look into other parts of codex? I had a look at elites in our codex in an above post and thought of a few things I'd liked to have been different, what would you guys like to change int hat catagory?

 

 

Ehm, where is the etc etc? Point it out to me please. And kindly do it without insulting me in the process.

 

PS you can have twin lightning claws as well and taking the 10pts for digital weapons actually lowers your captains effectiveness per point. I just dont accept that. I am not saying your captain is better at everything anyways.

 

Im just wondering why youd want everything to be on par with C:SM + extra. Your better somewhere, worse somewhere (and in this case, there is an argument whether that is even true, since far from everyone has the builds either of us are talking about)

 

Just accept it.

 

And if I am so wrong, somebody else please tell me. (and please do look at the numbers, dont just say woo hooo , we dont have relic blades and artificer armour, our captain is absolutely terrible and unusable...)

 

 

Wow you just changed your arguement from 'is better' to 'i never said it was better you have things that are better and things that are worse in the sm codex'. Nuff said

 

And yes digi weapons are useless on lightning claws I'm more showing the lack of equipment we have. On a relic blade or power weapon it could be very good. Sorry if you were insulted by what I said but your math doesnt help your arguement when there is to many conflicting examples of where our captain isn't even on PAR with the SM and for no good reason. Yes we should have thing that are different better and not as good but captains shouldnt be one of them, the only thing we should have as negatives on marines is points costs, other than that we dont have any reason for any of our units to be worse than theirs minus the ones we obviously don't have access too.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

Snorri nicely pointed out that this isnt only about captains. True. I still think that that you should go ever the numbers and at least consider that your captain is far from the horrible HQ choice you make it out to be. The examples you provided still fall under the same equation I wrote, only both numbers in close combat are proportionally smaller. In fact against monstrous creatures that melta shot still has its full 5/6 killiness and both the lightning claw (1/2-1/3 + 1/2 and 1/3 of the rest) and the relic blade (5/6 to 2/3) are toned down.

 

I rest my case, as I am tired of this. If you think your captain is bad when trying to have the same build as C:SM, I suggest the following: build you captain in such a way that the strengths of your codex come out. Change your philosophy and run your captain as an expert anti tank and on par with C.SM in CC.

[JamesI]

I think its time for everyone to take a break from this thread. I'll revive it in a few days, and when I do, please everyone remember that this is not really the place to argue about the quality of the captain in the BA codex.