Replacing heavy support with fast attack

[ImperialReaper]

Greetings.

 

I recently faced some IG players and had a hard time destroying AV14 Tanks with my all laser predators. This made me thinking afterwars about it - I always use my 3 heavy support slots and fill them up with weather vindicators or predators to have lascannons or the big s10 ap2 5"template available. The problem is: Vindicators often do miss the target and lascannons - so I think now - arent the best weapon against vehicles and due to the lack of shots ineffective against HQ Models.

 

So I thaught I set myself a rule of thumb to only field the BEST weapon against a certain target. So I endet up deciding that that I want melters against vehicles and plasma against HQs and tough infantry (S7 ap2 wounds anything on 2s and leaves them without armor save - S9 is not necessary IMO).

 

But the best way to use melters in my Blood Angels Codex are Bikes and/or Landspeeders. For 200 Pts - which is 20 more than an all lascannon predator - you get 4 Trikes with 2 Multimelters each. This IMO is way more dangereous for any vehicle than any predator and much more agile and to place in cover.

 

Only for packing some plasma I am unshure what to use. I thaught about 6 Sternguards with 2 plasmarifles in an LAS/Sync Plasma Razorback.

 

Did anyone else use this kind of armylist? Any hints?

[ShinyRhino]

Attack bikes with multimeltas are indeed nice. They have a nice movement range, the ability to turbo boost for a 3+ cover save, two wounds each, and Toughness 5. They're relatively cheap. They are weak against dedicated high-strength shots, though. A single krak missile, lascannon shot, etc vaporizes them instantly if you did not turbo boost that turn. They have the mobility to use cover, though, which is nice.

 

Multimelta speeders have an AV value (albeit a small one), are relatively cheap, good movement (Fast skimmer), can move Flat Out for a 4+ cover save, and can fly over obstacles. When facing IG, this can come in very handy, since yu can fly right over the intervening infantry and transports to get at the meaty tanks in the backfield.

 

I'd consider taking one of each unit. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, which have been debated ad nauseum here in other threads. Do a search and you'll find that it all boils down to personal preference and playstyle.

 

As for plasma...I personally use one of two delivery methods. A bike squad with two plasmaguns, or a Command Squad with four plasmaguns, in a transport or on foot. Plasma on bikers is a debatable tactic, but one I like using. What sort of HQ units are you trying to assassinate with plasma shots?

[ImperialReaper]

As for plasma...I personally use one of two delivery methods. A bike squad with two plasmaguns, or a Command Squad with four plasmaguns, in a transport or on foot. Plasma on bikers is a debatable tactic, but one I like using. What sort of HQ units are you trying to assassinate with plasma shots?

 

Well every HQ choice with a thougness < 7 - which should be...anything or am I mistaken here?

[ShinyRhino]

Well every HQ choice with a thougness < 7 - which should be...anything or am I mistaken here?

 

I was curious if there was a specific unit you needed killed on a regular basis.

In general, HQ units tend to be small, or Independent Characters sunk into a larger unit. For example, I always bury my Biker Captain inside a regular Bike Squad. Yu can fire plasma at him all day, and I'll either shunt the wounds off on mooks, or splash a single wound per turn on the Captain's Iron Halo save. He's got three wounds, and I can do that twice before I get nervous.

 

Plasma might cut deep, but it's hard to get enough hits in a single turn to wipe out an HQ via shooting. The best ways to "assassinate" an HQ model are either pure torrent of fire (make them roll a brick of saves, and they will fail eventually), or via Instant Death in close combat (powerfists, Force Weapons, etc). Ever see Pedro Kantor try to take on a Dreadnought? He gets his face smashed in 3 out of 5 times before he can even swing that powerfist of his.

[Ming]

Ahhh...the daemon is in the details? You play blood angels...

 

Here is my 2 pence. Stop trying to shoot enemy vehicles or other HQs. You are supposed to assault them. Don't try to act like other armies. Get in character. BAs deal with mech opponents in three different ways:

 

1. Most common: Razorback spam. Nuff said. If you get the alphastrike, your opponent is wrecked. If you get hit first, you are wrecked. This game is all determined on first turn die rolls.

 

2. Uncommon: Deep strike assault units in with meltagun and combimelta spammed units that also have powerfists. On the turn you drop in you shoot; the next turn you shoot and assault. Cheapest with jump packs instead of pods. The third turn you consolidate on the objectives, and play soccer with IG helmets. Works well on mech, not so good on horde. If terrain is dense, you can start on the board instead of reserves and get the same result.

 

3. Rare: Dreadly drop in assault with bloodlance spam, followed by jump/foot/razor cleanup. So rare, not able to know how well it works. Having 2 librarians and entourage, plus 3+ librarian dreads pop down in the opponents face can be interesting. Libby dreads require pods. At least on paper this looks great. I don't know anyone (yet) with 3+ BA dreads and pods to pull it off. I'd proxy it with cans of redbull and budweiser for the dreads and pods respectively.

 

I've heard rumblings of BAs trying to emulate the old Epic SM assault card - just vindies and assault jump packers working together. Might be great as a linebreaker, but only in dense terrain.

[ImperialReaper]

The thing is i really dont like deepstriking - sounds strange from an Blood Angel, but being exposed for one turn on fire and being assaultet afterwars is simply not a good idea.

Deep strike with meltas sound cool - but it is hard to pull off. The chance that you get down near any vehicle within 6" to get the melta bonus is pretty small compared to the chance to be to far away or even to depart into the vehicle.

 

@ShinyRhino:

I know most HQs come in groups and can only directly be hit in CC. But the thing is another Rule of Thumb of mine - there are certain things you DONT WANT TO ATTACK IN CLOSE COMBAT. This goes for any unit wit high WS and Initiative. This is mainly because I usually dont feald Ueber HQs like Mephiston or the Sanguinor. I do but feald Furiosos - but they where slaughtered once by a Hive Tyrant. Got theyr WS and Initiative reduced to nothing and just got washed away...

[ShinyRhino]

The thing is i really dont like deepstriking - sounds strange from an Blood Angel, but being exposed for one turn on fire and being assaultet afterwars is simply not a good idea.

Deep strike with meltas sound cool - but it is hard to pull off. The chance that you get down near any vehicle within 6" to get the melta bonus is pretty small compared to the chance to be to far away or even to depart into the vehicle.

 

@ShinyRhino:

I know most HQs come in groups and can only directly be hit in CC. But the thing is another Rule of Thumb of mine - there are certain things you DONT WANT TO ATTACK IN CLOSE COMBAT. This goes for any unit wit high WS and Initiative. This is mainly because I usually dont feald Ueber HQs like Mephiston or the Sanguinor. I do but feald Furiosos - but they where slaughtered once by a Hive Tyrant. Got theyr WS and Initiative reduced to nothing and just got washed away...

 

Gotcha.

Well, I'm not intimately familiar with the BA dex yet, since I play with the regular Marine dex. I do own the BA dex, just haven't committed it to memory.

Can your Honor Guard units take plasmaguns? Death Company?

You rother optionis a bunch of plasma pistols, which I know standard Marines can take up to three in an Assault Squad (two Marines, one on a sergeant). The largest concentration of plasma ends up being a Command Squad with 4 plasmaguns, or a Devastator Squad with four plasma cannons. Devvies are insanely expensive when built this way, though, and also fire templates that may scatter off the unit you want to shoot.

I run the 4x plasmagun Command Squad with just an Apothecary, and a 2x plasmagun biker squad. Both perform quite well. The Apothecary keeps overheat casualties down in the Command Squad, and the Bikers have the benefit of being Relentles, so they can move 12" and still fire the plasmagns at 24" range, makign the threat raneg a whopping 36".

Plasma pistols are nice for fast-movers like jump pack troops, because they can jump 12", and threaten another 12" with the pistols. Problem is, they're prohibitively expensive, and using them lands you firmly in assault range during the enemy's next turn if you don't wipe him out.

 

The las/plas Razorback is something I've fielded before, but with mixed results. I tend to rely more on the lascannon than the palsmaguns. The lascannon has reaped a tally of Rhinos, Trukks, and even a Monolith (massive streak of 6-rolling luck there). Since it has two separate wepons, you end up moving 6" per turn to only fire one of them. The 24" range of the plasmaguns makes it all but required that you move every turn to get them into range of your targets. You'll find yourself creeping forward 6" per turn, using the lascannon, and waiting patiently for a viable target to come into range of the plasmaguns :lol:

 

One huge benefit you have as a Blood Angel is your Sanguinary Priests. You can attach them to almost any of your squads, and greatly mitigate the risk of overheat casualties. I'mnot a huge fan of giving Sternguard anything but a combiweapon, since doing so removes the ability for those models to fire any of their special ammo, which is a huge boon when facing a variety of opponents with one list (say, a tournament).

 

 

Also, if it makes you feel better, Blood Angels might LOOK like a close combat army, but they're more of a "speed" army. They lack the ability to take large numbers of power weapons in anything but a Sanguinary Guard build, and they fall behind Orks for close combat punch because they are capped at much smaller squads (no 30-man Assault Marine units, except the Death Company).

[Grey Mage]

Another thing I find that works well- Typhoons hitting side armor. IG tanks have relatively poor side armor, and most races are just as bad- they can go through a chimera wall like butter and take down leman russ' with good efficency. A pair of them is less than 200pts, and gets you 4 ML shots, and alot of anti-horde firepower when the tanks are dead.