Night Lords and jet bikes

[isilvra]

So, i've never really liked bikes in 40k, they never really fit in. Recently though i've got it into my head that jet bikes on the other hand are cool so i've thinking of adding some to my true scale night lords army. Question is, how the heck will it work? is it even plausable that the traitor legions would be able to maintain anti grav technology?

[Hellios]

So, i've never really liked bikes in 40k, they never really fit in. Recently though i've got it into my head that jet bikes on the other hand are cool so i've thinking of adding some to my true scale night lords army. Question is, how the heck will it work? is it even plausable that the traitor legions would be able to maintain anti grav technology?

 

It is possible that your your Warband has spent very little time fighting due to warp transition... AKA the HH may have ended 20 years ago for them... so they might have been able to keep a few running... or maybe using the knowledge and power of the dark mechanicum to great daemonic bikes of floaty doom!

[KaosRaptor]

I'm gonna agree with Hellios. If I remember rightly, in Soul Hunter it was mentioned that though it had been 10 millenia to the Imperium since the Heresy, to the some of the Chaos Marines it only seemed like 10 years after all their time spent in the Eye. So yeah, I could see them possibly keeping some jetbikes intact. Plus, the image of Night Lords adding some sort of screamer technology to their engines to break morale is just too awesome B)

[AbyssKnight]

I think it was 100 years of subjective time for the characters in Soul Hunter, and even the Word Bears in the Dark Apostle series say they have only experienced "mere centuries" of time. Of course, Soul Hunter also makes a point that resources can be very hard to replace for chaos marines, as they don't have the resources to draw from that the Imperium does.

 

In any case, are chaos jet bikes possible? Sure. We know the Imperium previously maintained jet bike technology (the Master of the Ravenwing still rides one of the few remaining examples today), and still maintains some anti-grav tech in the form of Land Speeders. So the tech definately existed. With the time reduction effect of the Eye, the bikes could still be running after all this time. So why not, sounds like an interesting idea.

 

Are you planning on them being count-as bikers? Or have them be count as Raptors, maybe?

[isilvra]

Are you planning on them being count-as bikers? Or have them be count as Raptors, maybe?

 

just going to have them count as bikes i think. the models will be purely for cosmetic purposes. Would be cool to be able to have them deep strike though so I may change my mind.

[nightlordsrock3564]

Convert the Master of the Ravenwing Model, that would look awesome as a Night lord HQ choice

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Convert the Master of the Ravenwing Model, that would look awesome as a Night lord HQ choice

 

Or find the old Doomrider model and convert him. :P

[Legatus]

is it even plausable that the traitor legions would be able to maintain anti grav technology?

No Chaos Codex I remember since 2nd Edition ever included Land Speeders. That basically is your answer right there, but perhaps you might want to go ahead and do it anyway.

[Paradigm]

You could always have them count as raptors with mark of nurgle to make them effectively the same?

[TheDarkApostle]

is it even plausable that the traitor legions would be able to maintain anti grav technology?

No Chaos Codex I remember since 2nd Edition ever included Land Speeders. That basically is your answer right there, but perhaps you might want to go ahead and do it anyway.

However Chaos still has Jump Packs.

 

And those have anti-grav tech in them as well :tu:

 

TDA

[nightlordsrock3564]

is it even plausable that the traitor legions would be able to maintain anti grav technology?

No Chaos Codex I remember since 2nd Edition ever included Land Speeders. That basically is your answer right there, but perhaps you might want to go ahead and do it anyway.

However Chaos still has Jump Packs.

 

And those have anti-grav tech in them as well :devil:

 

TDA

 

Jump pack's do not have anti-grav tech, they have that as much as a jet fighter does

[Legatus]

They do have a bit of anti grav tech in them, as per the 2nd Edition description. There is still a glaring lack of Land Speeders (and jetbikes) in the Chaos Codices...

[Lord_Caerolion]

But there's a good presence of them in the Horus Heresy artbooks, Legatus. Don't base fluff on the rules.

[Legatus]

IIRC the Horus Heresy artbooks deal mostly with the Horus Heresy time period... :rolleyes: The Traitor Legions had been defeated and their foothold and their bases in the material realm had been subsequently eradicated, which is why they generally do not have access to all the resources loyalists have access to. It is much easier when you can just go to a nearby forgeworld and request a few new Land Speeders, or just some engines or parts. It also helps if the Adeptus Mechanicus will train your Chapter's Techmarines in how to maintain that equipment. Traitor Forces do not have all of that. They do means to accquire some supplies, but not the resources loyalists have available, and not the good relations to the Mechanicus (having Traitor Marines trained by the Dark Mechanicus is probably not that common, or even not a custom at all).

[nightlordsrock3564]

but it says in the DA codex that sammael's jetbike is the last remaining jetbike as the imperium sees jetbikes as the arena of heretics and aliens, so why can't they have one??

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

IIRC the Horus Heresy artbooks deal mostly with the Horus Heresy time period... :) The Traitor Legions had been defeated and their foothold and their bases in the material realm had been subsequently eradicated, which is why they generally do not have access to all the resources loyalists have access to. It is much easier when you can just go to a nearby forgeworld and request a few new Land Speeders, or just some engines or parts. It also helps if the Adeptus Mechanicus will train your Chapter's Techmarines in how to maintain that equipment. Traitor Forces do not have all of that. They do means to accquire some supplies, but not the resources loyalists have available, and not the good relations to the Mechanicus (having Traitor Marines trained by the Dark Mechanicus is probably not that common, or even not a custom at all).

So, what exactly does this have to do with Jetbikes not being used by traitors? You notice that Rhinos are still around... And Predators... And Land Raiders... And Bikes... They even get some new toys of their own to work with, IE the Defiler. And just because they don't have friendly relations with the Dark Mechanicum, doesn't mean they don't have techs of their own, like the second and third books of the Dark Apostle series, and Soul Hunter, and in Storm of Iron (which covers pretty much all the Chaos books that go into the actual workings and command of the wrabands).

 

So, my question back to you is why do you still think that it's just so impossible to have Jetbikes? I'll answer that for you - it isn't, but the Imperium doesn't have them and there aren't rules for them so Chaos shouldn't have them. Am I correct as to your line of thinking? Because Chaos doesn't need preexisting guidelines. That's what makes it Chaos.

[Lay]

As stated above, it's been established since 2nd edition that Chaos lacks certain types of wargear because their fabrication and maintenance is too complex. CSM don't have jetbikes for the same reason they don't have assault cannons.

[isilvra]

As stated above, it's been established since 2nd edition that Chaos lacks certain types of wargear because their fabrication and maintenance is too complex. CSM don't have jetbikes for the same reason they don't have assault cannons.

 

I wouldn't say the construction of an assault cannon would be beyond the abilities of the Dark Machanicum. Fabricating jet bikes would be out of there hands yes. But remember that these are the same Astartes who actually rode them and maintained them. Short of the death of every qualified person or a lack of replacement parts I don't see why they would suddenly become unable to maintain them for a short period at least.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

As stated above, it's been established since 2nd edition that Chaos lacks certain types of wargear because their fabrication and maintenance is too complex. CSM don't have jetbikes for the same reason they don't have assault cannons.

 

I wouldn't say the construction of an assault cannon would be beyond the abilities of the Dark Machanicum. Fabricating jet bikes would be out of there hands yes. But remember that these are the same Astartes who actually rode them and maintained them. Short of the death of every qualified person or a lack of replacement parts I don't see why they would suddenly become unable to maintain them for a short period at least.

The reason they don't have assault cannons is because they tend to prefer the reaper <_< Plus, it's a preheresy STC, which gives it more flavor than the assault cannon.

 

As for jetbikes being too complex, Dreadnoughts are pretty complex, and yet they have survived only because they've been repaired again... and again... and again... and again... and again... You get my point?

[Lay]

As for jetbikes being too complex, Dreadnoughts are pretty complex, and yet they have survived only because they've been repaired again... and again... and again... and again... and again... You get my point?

If Dreadnoughts were too complex to be maintained, they wouldn't be in the Codices or CSM fluff, just like jetbikes.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

As for jetbikes being too complex, Dreadnoughts are pretty complex, and yet they have survived only because they've been repaired again... and again... and again... and again... and again... You get my point?

If Dreadnoughts were too complex to be maintained, they wouldn't be in the Codices or CSM fluff, just like jetbikes.

But whose decision is it that they are too complex to mantain? Not yours. Not mine, either, but I certainly doubt it, simply because all that (assuming that jetbikes are too complex to be mantained) will only degrade our hobby and demoralize those of a converting mind.

[Legatus]

The 2nd Edition Codex Chaos was quite elaborate on the issue of technology. It has a quite long description on the pages 71 and 72.

 

 

"(...) Because the Traitor Legions were the ones that had advanced furthest from Terra they were among the last to receive new weapons and armour. This meant that the Space Marines fighting for Horus lacked many of the weapons which would be subsequently phased into the arsenals of the Imperium over the next millennia.

After Horus fell the Traitor Legions were driven into the Eye of Terror, untouched by the flow of time. Their weaponry and armour has been embellished and decorated with personalised schemes but otherwise it has stayed unchanged down the centuries as they fight the Long War. Innovation and invention have become anathema to Chaos Space Marines as they battle the hated Imperium. They preserve the bitter anger for the lost millennia forced on them by the Emperor and anything new serves only to drive the shards of their hatred deeper into their tortured minds.

(...)

When the Legions began re-equipping, a number of weapons which would come to be in common use later were still experimental or even purely theoretical. Many other weapons relied on sciences that were barely understood but which had been found in ancient vaults of dark technology and copied for general use. For example, the Traitor Legions had no access to Melta bombs or multi-meltas, but melta-guns were commonly available. Likewise, portable (though dangerous) plasma guns and even pistols existed but the heavy plasma gun [note: plasma cannon] could only be mounted on a Dreadnought or vehicle.

(...)

The weaponry used by Terminator squads was very different during the Heresy as tactical Dreadnought armour was still under developement at that time. Only after centuries more warfare did Terminators emerge armed with the Assault cannon, storm bolters, Cyclone missile launchers and Thunder Hammers which became their hallmark within the Imperium.

(...)

Jump Packs and Skimmers

Though both jump packs and skimmers were available to the Space Marine Legions in limited quantities prior to the Heresy they were proportionally far rarer than in the later Imperial Space Marine Chapters. The complex fabrication and maintenance rituals required for jump packs and skimmers has eliminated their use by the Traitor Legions since their banishment to the Eye of Terror."

 

 

(Note: Chaos Marines had no jump pack units in 2nd Edition. They were introduced with the Raptors which were a new unit developed for 3rd Edition.)

 

That background was mainly for the original Traitor Legions. Later traitor Chapters are also mentioned in the book, later in the notes for the army list on page 86. But even for them the post-heresy equipment is rare (more expensive in the game).

 

 

"Post-Heresy Weaponry

The Wargear list is based upon the equipment used by the traitor Legions, who fled into the Eye of Terror during the Horus Heresy, many of whom still use weapons and armour that date back to those days. Since then other Chapters of Space Marines have been led astray by the Chaos Gods, which means that some Chaos Space Marines are armed with weaponry from after the Horus Heresy period.

To represent this you may, if you wish, take 'Imperial Only' Wargear cards, Vehicle cards and/or use the Wargear List in Codex Ultramarines when choosing equipment, instead of the Wargear list below. However, if you decide to do this then any equipment taken from the Ultramarines list costs an extra 50% over and above its normal cost, to represent the relative rarity of the equipment. You may also include any of the vehicle and support weapons from the Support section of the Ultramarines list, with the exception of Dreadnoughts, again at 50% over and above the normal cost."

[Lay]

But whose decision is it that they are too complex to mantain? Not yours.

Of course not. I didn't make this stuff up.

 

I certainly doubt it, simply because all that (assuming that jetbikes are too complex to be mantained) will only degrade our hobby and demoralize those of a converting mind.

I doubt that, people convert stuff that isn't canon all the time.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

So... This makes what difference? The fluff has been retconned, you said it yourself with the raptors. That means it is void. Irrevelant.

 

Although I do believe that the legions that were the farthest from Terra would be refitted last, that honor would go to the Dark Angels, Word Bearers, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. Only one of that list is a traitorous legion. I made this list based on those who weren't at the Seige of Terra, because they were too far away at the time of the Heresy.

[Legatus]

So... This makes what difference? The fluff has been retconned, you said it yourself with the raptors. That means it is void. Irrevelant.

To my knowledge the archaic selection of weapons has not really been retconed at all. Chaos Marines still don't use infantry based plasma cannons, multi-meltas, thunder hammers, assault cannons, etc. The only thing that has changed is that they now have a limited number of jump packs. But every Chaos Codex since 3rd Edition has pointed out how rare jump packs were among the Space Marine Legions.

 

 

Although I do believe that the legions that were the farthest from Terra would be refitted last, that honor would go to the Dark Angels, Word Bearers, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines.

As you said, those Legions were not at the Battle for Terra, so I guess the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars were among the Legions equipped with the experimental new developements first. But as the background explained, a lot of the Imperial gear was really only established or fully developed after the Heresy anyway.