Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 So... This makes what difference? The fluff has been retconned, you said it yourself with the raptors. That means it is void. Irrevelant. To my knowledge the archaic selection of weapons has not really been retconed at all. Chaos Marines still don't use infantry based plasma cannons, multi-meltas, thunder hammers, assault cannons, etc. The only thing that has changed is that they now have a limited number of jump packs. But every Chaos Codex since 3rd Edition has pointed out how rare jump packs were among the Space Marine Legions. Although I do believe that the legions that were the farthest from Terra would be refitted last, that honor would go to the Dark Angels, Word Bearers, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. As you said, those Legions were not at the Battle for Terra, so I guess the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars were among the Legions equipped with the experimental new developements first. But as the background explained, a lot of the Imperial gear was really only established or fully developed after the Heresy anyway. A lot... but apparently jetbikes weren't, because Imperial forces don't have them today. :D The archaic selection of wargear has been retconned, but it would be unfair ruleswise to have them... If loyalists got all this, and Chaos got all this and then some of that would that be fair? No... So loyalists get all this and Chaos gets some of this plus some of that. You have to remember, there's nothing stopping Chaos from looting Imperial stuff. Just look at Vindicators. Developed after the Heresy and still in the rulebook. Hmmmmm. Apparently Chaos does get some post Heresy inventions :lol: Besides, rules have never been accurate depictions of fluff, I believe that's something you yourself have stated many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 A lot... but apparently jetbikes weren't, because Imperial forces don't have them today. :geek: Nor do CSM. The archaic selection of wargear has been retconned, but it would be unfair ruleswise to have them... It's not just the rules. The fluff in the current Codex still doesn't mention things like Chaos Thunder Hammers, Assault Cannons and Land Speeders. Instead it depicts 'archaic pattern', 'retro pattern' and other early millennia wargear as standard equipment. Fluffwise, the only exception (since 2nd edition) are recent Renegades. And according to the Index Astartes on Renegade Chapters, they often have to deal with depleting arsenals. Just look at Vindicators. Developed after the Heresy and still in the rulebook. Hmmmmm. According to Imperial Armour II, Vindicators had been around in limited numbers during the Horus Heresy. And this was written before the 4th Edition C:CSM made them part of the army list. Besides, rules have never been accurate depictions of fluff, I believe that's something you yourself have stated many times. He's been citing fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 The archaic selection of wargear has been retconned In which source? Since Chaos Marines have not been able to get any of those weapons in the past few Codices it would have been odd from GW to state that they do have them. You have to remember, there's nothing stopping Chaos from looting Imperial stuff. Nothing other than a loyalist Space Marine Chapter, of course. :geek: Really, anything they cannot preoduce themselves will be very hard to come by and thus very rare. According to the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines Vindicators had been heavily used by the Traitor Legions during the Siege of the Imperial Palace. I am not sure whether this is a retcon, but if it is then I suspect that GW put the Vindicator in the current Codex to allow Chaos players to build Iron Warrior forces (just like the Codex Eldar has Troops Wraithguard and Jetnikes specifically to allow to play certain Craftworlds) and then simply tweaked the background a bit to justify it being there in a basic list. Similar to how the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines now suddenly has Veteran Assault squads but instead of that being specifically a Raven Guard unit it explains that Codex Chapters use them (and apparently allways have). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 Really, anything they cannot preoduce themselves will be very hard to come by and thus very rare. a sb is mounted on every imperial tank . they are mass produced . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 I guess that's true. But then using the basic twin-linked boltgun rules for Renegade Chapter storm bolters is what I would call a "minor detail". (The Traitor Legions themselves are not upgrading to newer versions because they prefer to use their trusted old weapons, at least according to the 2nd Edition description.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 I guess that's true. But then using the basic twin-linked boltgun rules for Renegade Chapter storm bolters is what I would call a "minor detail". (The Traitor Legions themselves are not upgrading to newer versions because they prefer to use their trusted old weapons, at least according to the 2nd Edition description.) Maybe in the case of some warbands but in other warband no doubt it isn't an issue... and I bet the Dark Mechanicum could produce a lot of this stuff for the right price in souls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 A lot... but apparently jetbikes weren't, because Imperial forces don't have them today. :D Nor do CSM. The archaic selection of wargear has been retconned, but it would be unfair ruleswise to have them... It's not just the rules. The fluff in the current Codex still doesn't mention things like Chaos Thunder Hammers, Assault Cannons and Land Speeders. Instead it depicts 'archaic pattern', 'retro pattern' and other early millennia wargear as standard equipment. Fluffwise, the only exception (since 2nd edition) are recent Renegades. And according to the Index Astartes on Renegade Chapters, they often have to deal with depleting arsenals. Just look at Vindicators. Developed after the Heresy and still in the rulebook. Hmmmmm. According to Imperial Armour II, Vindicators had been around in limited numbers during the Horus Heresy. And this was written before the 4th Edition C:CSM made them part of the army list. Besides, rules have never been accurate depictions of fluff, I believe that's something you yourself have stated many times. He's been citing fluff. WD and Imperial Armour books apparently don't agree :P Because from what I learned, in the WD that introduced Apocyalypse it said they were invented during the Heresy (and implied that it was after the Seige of Terra, because I'm pretty sure Guillimann wasn't beseiging any traitors before the Seige of Terra). Please do not make arbitary statements on whether or not CSM have jetbikes. That's what we're discussing. I must have failed to mention that having 'some of this' meant 'an archaic version of this to give flavor' because I thought that it was obvious. Either way, archaic or not, it still supports that they should have jetbikes. After all, if the wargear is archaic, why shouldn't they have something very archaic, a la jetbike :D He's been citing fluff by stating what unit choices are availible? No. The only defense you guys have is that the fluff that has been retconned by introducing Raptors is still true because CSM don't have Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers, and a few other things. Instead of Thunder Hammers, we have Daemon Weapons. We use rocket launchers (I don't like calling them missile launchers) instead of multimeltas because they are much more common than multi-meltas are and far easier to mantain. I still think Multi-Meltas should be in there, but at an increased price, but who am I :P So should Plasma Cannons. They're definitely common enough among marine players <_< Maybe it's because it's newer tech? Hmmmm, should still be replaced with a chaos cannon (with similar rules, only with increased strength but no armour save when rolling a 1?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 According to Imperial Armour II, Vindicators had been around in limited numbers during the Horus Heresy. And this was written before the 4th Edition C:CSM made them part of the army list. WD and Imperial Armour books apparently don't agree dry.gif Because from what I learned, in the WD that introduced Apocyalypse it said they were invented during the Heresy Aren't you both kinda saying the same thing there? He's been citing fluff by stating what unit choices are availible? No. I had been quoting quite an amount of fluff earlier. The only defense you guys have is that the fluff that has been retconned by introducing Raptors is still true because CSM don't have Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers, and a few other things. The fluff about how Chaos Marines do not have infantry Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers and skimmers is still true because it has not yet been retconned. Fluff about how Chaos Marines suddenly do use jump packs is not retconning all the other lacking equipment as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 The only defense you guys have is that the fluff that has been retconned by introducing Raptors is still true because CSM don't have Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers, and a few other things. The fluff about how Chaos Marines do not have infantry Plasma Cannons, Thunder Hammers and skimmers is still true because it has not yet been retconned. Fluff about how Chaos Marines suddenly do use jump packs is not retconning all the other lacking equipment as well. That makes no sense at all! If they decide that source is no longer true, that makes it worthless as far as arguments go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 They didn't decide the source is no longer true. The source said Chaos Marines do not have A, B, C, D, E and G. In the next Edition a new source then said that they do have a limited number of D. That does not mean the entire previous source (i.e. every bit of background written in the 2nd Edition Codex) is no longer true in every account that was not contested. The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had Terminators be separated into two types, regular and "assault", while in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines there had been just one type of Terminator squad. Does this changed detail mean that the entire background of the 2nd Edition was now considered void? Of course not. Some details are changed, some are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 They didn't decide the source is no longer true. The source said Chaos Marines do not have A, B, C, D, E and G. In the next Edition a new source then said that they do have a limited number of D. That does not mean the entire previous source (i.e. every bit of background written in the 2nd Edition Codex) is no longer true in every account that was not contested. The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had Terminators be separated into two types, regular and "assault", while in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines there had been just one type of Terminator squad. Does this changed detail mean that the entire background of the 2nd Edition was now considered void? Of course not. Some details are changed, some are not. Why would they change one detail and not the others? At the very, absolute least, A,B, C, E, and G are now open to speculation as to whether or not they are actually there. EDIT: My bad, thought that you meant making there a third type of Terminator squad (which there isn't, as you can't see that I just proved :) ) didn't disprove Second Edition... I think that it depends on the Edition. Some Editions were just tweaking up the previous Edition, in which case I would fully agree with you. Some were only inspired by the Previous edition, in which case I would completely disagree with you. In this case I completely disagree with you, because a lot has changed since Second Edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Why would they change one detail and not the others? Because they wanted to give Chaos Marines new units in 3rd Edition, and apparently they thought a jump pack unit would make a nice addition. But apparently skimmers did not make the cut. Aside from Raptors, the 3rd Edition Codex added Obliterators and Possessed as new unit types. Edit: Not needed anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 See my edit, which I made directly after posting, but it took a while due to issues that I had to deal with interrupting my edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 I think that it depends on the Edition. Some Editions were just tweaking up the previous Edition, in which case I would fully agree with you. Some were only inspired by the Previous edition, in which case I would completely disagree with you. In this case I completely disagree with you, because a lot has changed since Second Edition. No, not really. In 2nd Edition the 40K universe as we know it had been established, and has only been tweaked in small instances since then. New units or vehicles have been added, the Tau are new, the Index Astartes articles have fleshed out some of the Chapetrs or Legions more than they previously were, etc. The foundations for all the factions are still pretty much the same. The 5th Edition Codices are even copying large sections from the 2nd Edition Codices. The first few pages 6-16 of the Codex Space Marines are taken straight fro the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, with only minor changes in some phrases. The Space Wolves and Blood Angels Codices include such pages as well. The first few fluff pages from the 4th Edition Blood Angels pdf Codex were taken almost directly from the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death. The pages 12-17 in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines look very similar in structure (with sections such as "the Emperor at Bay" or "The Long War") as the background given in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines on the pages 8-11 and 19-20. I have noticed a few phrases that were the same, but I have not compared the two texts completely (as I have done with the Space Marine texts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 and implied that it was after the Seige of Terra, because I'm pretty sure Guillimann wasn't beseiging any traitors before the Seige of Terra Well for starters theres Calth, not to mention the as yet unnamed battles against the Alpha Legion and Night Lords, both of whom were deployed to act as speedbumps to slow the Smurfs down. According to the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines Vindicators had been heavily used by the Traitor Legions during the Siege of the Imperial Palace. I am not sure whether this is a retcon Its an un-retcon, current version of the fluff has been retconned to the original version from RT, one of the first 40k scale Vindicators was this one:http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/vinec.jpg http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/vinec2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulfast Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Like the old scshool picture and test. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Mechanicum Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Jetbikes in the Traitor Legions. So far in most images and other things. The most Imperial Jetbikes shown are from the Traitor Legions: The Horus Heresy big book has Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, and one other legion I can't remember from the traitor list that they are on Jetbikes. The Jetbike was phased out of Imperium use due to its usage in most Xenos armies they were fighting. I can see the 3 aforementioned Legions no longer using Jetbikes due to how they now view war. In First Heretic they use Jetbikes. Most legions that were based off of fast movement probably used Jetbikes. So to the original question: Yes, it would be fluffy for Night Lords to have Jetbikes. The question would be, is the warband/company large enough and with enough allies to actually keep such things going? Or is it scavenging and some of them are still useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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