Sons of the Daemon

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Second Legion

 

The Second Legion is forgotten by it's own wishes, the commanders of it unamiously begging the Emperor to order their lack of existence. They had nothing but an angry, arrogant primarch that was constantly treachorous and held none above himself, and their very bodies were hideous and warped. Their geneseed was tainted unlike any other, and they wanted nothing but to be forgotten by humanity, because it was like they were no longer human at all.

 

It started with the first Space Marine of the Second Legion. Implanted with geneseed, he died soon after the Black Carapace was given to him. So were the next ten, until finally one managed to live... but only by a a hairsbreadth. For months he was in the laboratories of the Emperor, and the Emperor tried to put the geneseed in more bodies. Out of a hundred, only 12 survived, and they too went into the neard death state of the first survivor.

 

After two weeks, nubs were seen on the back of the first one's back, and his skin was slightly darker, along with the normal changes that affected every Space Marine. A month after that, these nubs had developed into triangles, while the skin continued to become husky and dark. Three motnhs after that, these triangles had developed into small wings, and the marine had only just stopped growing. Three more months after that, the wings were full grown, the skin was like dark, old leather, and the marines was still his massive shape... and he awoke.

 

It has been said that the first thing said by the now 2nd Legionare was "What have you done to me?" "The recorded response of the Emperor was "I have made you more like your father".

 

In time, the other marines awoke, all of them having the same mutations as the first. He was christened as Tryr, and taken in by the Custodes and the marines from the other legions. They taught Tryr and showed him how to adjust to his new body, lessons he passed on to the other twelve marines of the Second Legion, and they joined him in teaching the next generation of Second Legionares.

 

This was no easy task. The recruits went from mortal humans to creatures comparable to custodes, and their original number all felt shame at their mutations. This was because even the Space Wolves were not as mutated as they were, and only the Thousand Sons had to deal with something worse, that they called the 'flesh-change'. Thier mutations were not uniform like the Second's, and although they were more powerful than most astartes and equal to the Custodes, they were marred by their mottled, leathery skin, their almost foul complexion, and wings that had nothing angelic about them.

 

This led to the term "dark custodes", and the name stuck. Instead of the name creating arrogance, however, it inspired humility into the marines of the Second Legion, because in comparison to the Custode's golden armour, their's was a uniform dark grey, and their coutenance could not approach the nobility of the Imperium's greatest.

 

When the number of the Second Legion reached 400, they set out to join the Great Crusade and recruit from the worlds they passed by. Slowly, their number grew, and soon into it Horus was found. The Lion and another primarch followed swiftly after, and the numbers of the Second Legion eventually reached 3000 warriors. Although this was much smaller than most of the other legions, the now Dark Custodes were proud that they had been able to reach that many. 3-5% of the recruits were all that eventually became marines, and with more marines the more worlds could be reached and more wars fought to earn their place as more then their mutations.

 

Then their primarch was found, on the world of Cartan. Regarded as a direct link to the clearly foul gods that the people worshipped, the primarch Sorya - Conduit, in Imperial tongue - heard the message of the Imperium and rebelled. The Dark Custodes were within three systems when Sorya was found, although they did not know that he was anything more than just some xenos lord controlling them.

 

They made war upon the noncompliant Cartan, and in the last stages of the campaign Sorya finally revealed himself to the Dark Custodes, during a destruction of a major temple. In the final minutes before commencing the attack, the librarians of the Second Legion began to feel wrong, and they relayed this wrongness to the commanders preparing for the assault. The commanders took note, and launched the assault with due caution.

 

The primarch came out of the temple.

 

The effect was instantaneous. The Second Legionares closest to the temple saw him and realized the resemblance, and immediately ordered a King beneath the Mountain level order to retreat, the highest priority level the Legion had, saved for one purpose. In seconds the area around the temple was clear of attackers, and the high commander saw Sorya.

 

He was like the astartes that filled the air, with almost black, mottled skin, huge, batlike wings, and a visage unlike any other. Where Sanguinus had beauty, this one had foulness. But he was unmistakably the primarch of the Second Legion. This resemblance in their bodies was unmistakable. There was no doubt in any of the Second's minds who they saw before them.

 

"Kill them all..." Ordered the Second Legion's high commander, "but him."

 

The Second Legion began to slaughter the defenders of the temple, keeping clear of the one the defenders called Sorya. It was soon done, and the Dark Custodes shouted for the primarch to surrender.

 

Sorya did not. He attacked the Second Legion, and they responded in the only way they could - incapacitation. A halberd weilding Legionaire slammed the butt of the weapon's haft into the back of the primarch's skull, buying enough time for another to slam a hammer into his father's temple. More weapons followed those, and although it cost lives the primarch was eventually battered into unconciousness.

 

The Second Legion took him into custody and placed the primarch into a specially designed room, and alerted the Emperor. A fourth son had been found.

 

It was not long before the Emperor arrived. He communicated privately with the primarch, and when he left, he was apparently satisfied. Behind him trailed a defeated Sorya, humble before his father, almost mockingly. Almost. They spoke before the assembled Second Legionares, with the Emperor granting Sorya full command over the Second Legion, and Sorya vowing dedication to his father. With that finished, The Emperor and his custodes went to their ships and left again for the forefront of the Great Crusade.

 

As soon as the Emperor's last ship had left the system, Soryas manner changed. His humble posture transformed into one of arrogance, his neutral face spread into a dark grin. He ordered the Second Legion to bring up a map of the current galaxy, and then to leave him. The Second Legionaries did not hesitate, but none of them felt complete joy at their primarchs return. They did not trust him, for they did not know his plans.

 

After a few hours, Sorya emerged. He seemed grim, but he ordered that the Second Legion advance to the forefront of the Great Crusade. The Second Legionaires were pleased to hear this, perhaps they might earn some glory to cover their father's and their own mutations. They would have a longer history with their primarch than most of the other legions, and perhaps the stain of their foul bodies would be washed away with their deeds.

 

And so the Second Legion came to the edge of the Imperium, ready to expand it. First, however, Sorya wished to meet his brother primarchs.

 

Horus and Lion El'Johnson were there, with Perturabo. Sorya greeted them aboard his personal Battle Barge, the Giftless, and so the primarchs and their commanders met. The Mournival were noted to have been there, although strangely Luther was not. A few captains represented the astartes of the Iron Warriors, and the representive of the Second Legionaires was simply Tryr.

 

The primarchs and their warriors soon conversed beyond formalities, and the subject inevitably led to warfare. Perturabo shared his preference for seige warfare, to which Sorya replied -

 

"I enjoy a single devastating blow, when I conquer"

 

Horus was pleased to hear this, saying that "I, too, want to make war quickly and cleanly, removing their leaders so that the populace sees reason and joins us."

 

Sorya laughed at this. "I do not target their leaders, brother, but their people, they always are humbled when I kill most of their petty countries"

 

Horus was shocked at this, even more so that both the Lion and Perturabo were nodding their heads, although the El' Johnson made a comment about ineffeciency. A few of the captains began listening, including Tryr.

 

Horus recovered. "You were worshipped, were you not? Is it not better to gain more followers then to slaughter them, especially when they might benefit the you, or now, the Imperium?"

 

"There are always more, and it teachs them a valuable lesson." The Mournival were paying attention now, and only a captain of the Dark Angels and one of the Iron Warriors were argueing.

 

"Does it not feel better to slaughter them, regardless?"

 

"No," Horus replied, "For they are either xenos and we kill them because it is necessary or they are humans who should be shown the light of truth."

 

A strange look crossed Sorya's face, a mixture between confusion and complacency. It cleared quickly, and Sorya's last words on it were "Of course, all should know of the light of the Emperor."

Edited November 22, 2010 by Dark Apostle Thirst

[The Normish]

Since you're a fairly veteran Liberite, I assume, I won't butcher you for using the Lost Legions as a base (something which other people don't mind, but I do).

I like the idea. It's not bad. A penitent Legion so ashamed of itself it doesn't want to be remembered. That could make for some interesting psychology in the Marines, as well as how they fight (not sure how, but hey). My guess is that they killed their own Primarch? It wouldn't suit such an "arrogant" person to erase himself.

 

I might check in on this occasionally.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Since you're a fairly veteran Liberite, I assume, I won't butcher you for using the Lost Legions as a base (something which other people don't mind, but I do).

I mind it too, and I wouldn't do it myself if it wasn't such a good idea that could only be applied to them.

 

I like the idea. It's not bad. A penitent Legion so ashamed of itself it doesn't want to be remembered. That could make for some interesting psychology in the Marines, as well as how they fight (not sure how, but hey). My guess is that they killed their own Primarch? It wouldn't suit such an "arrogant" person to erase himself.

Normish, I think you're a librarian... :)

 

I might check in on this occasionally.

I'll be looking forward to it. :P

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

It has been said that the first thing said by the now 2nd Legionare was "What have you done to me?" "The recorded response of the Emperor was "I have made you more like your father".

 

In time, the other marines awoke, all of them having the same mutations as the first. He was christened as Tryr, and taken in by the Custodes and the marines from the other legions. They taught Tryr and showed him how to adjust to his new body, lessons he passed on to the other twelve marines of the Second Legion, and they joined him in teaching the next generation of Second Legionares.

 

This was no easy task. The recruits went from mortal humans to creatures comparable to custodes, and their original number all felt shame at their mutations. This was because even the Space Wolves were not as mutated as they were, and only the Thousand Sons had to deal with something worse, that they called the 'flesh-change'. Thier mutations were not uniform like the Second's, and although they were more powerful than most astartes and equal to the Custodes, they were marred by their mottled, leathery skin, their almost foul complexion, and wings that had nothing angelic about them.

 

This led to the term "dark custodes", and the name stuck. Instead of the name creating arrogance, however, it inspired humility into the marines of the Second Legion, because in comparison to the Custode's golden armour, their's was a uniform dark grey, and their coutenance could not approach the nobility of the Imperium's greatest.

 

When the number of the Second Legion reached 400, they set out to join the Great Crusade and recruit from the worlds they passed by. Slowly, their number grew, and soon into it Horus was found. The Lion and another primarch followed swiftly after, and the numbers of the Second Legion eventually reached 3000 warriors. Although this was much smaller than most of the other legions, the now Dark Custodes were proud that they had been able to reach that many. 3-5% of the recruits were all that eventually became marines, and with more marines the more worlds could be reached and more wars fought to earn their place as more then their mutations.

 

Then their primarch was found.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

On the world of Cartan, he was found. Regarded as a direct conduit to the clearly dark gods that the people worshipped, the primarch Sorya - Conduit, in Imperial tongue - heard the message of the Imperium and rebelled. The Dark Custodes were within three systems when Sorya was found, although they did not know that he was anything more than just some xenos lord controlling them.

 

They made war upon the noncompliant Cartan, and in the last stages of the campaign Sorya finally revealed himself to the Dark Custodes, during a destruction of a major temple. In the final minutes before commencing the attack, the librarians of the Second Legion began to feel wrong, and they relayed this wrongness to the commanders preparing for the assault. The commanders took note, and launched the assault with due caution.

 

The primarch came out of the temple.

 

The efect was instantaneous. The Second Legionares closest to the temple saw him and realized the resemblance, and immediately ordered a King beneath the Mountain level order to retreat, the highest priority level the Legion had, saved for one purpose. In seconds the area around the temple was clear of attackers, and the high commander saw Sorya.

 

He was like the astartes that filled the air, with almost black, mottled skin, huge, batlike wings, and a visage unlike any other. Where Sanguinus had beauty, this one had foulness. But he was unmistakably the primarch of the Second Legion. This resemblance in their bodies was unmistakable. There was no doubt in any of the Second's minds who they saw before them.

 

"Kill them all..." Ordered the Second Legion's high commander, "but him."

 

The Second Legion began to slaughter the defenders of the temple, keeping clear of the one the defenders called Sorya. It was soon done, and the Dark Custodes shouted for the primarch to surrender.

 

Sorya did not. He attacked the Second Legion, and they responded in the only way they could - incapacitation. A halberd weilding Legionaire slammed the butt of the weapon's haft into the back of the primarch's skull, buying enough time for another to slam a hammer into his father's temple. Even the primarch needed blood flowing to his mighty mind, and he fell, unable to retain consciousness.

 

The Second Legion took him into custody and placed the primarch into a specially designed room, and alerted the Emperor. A fourth son had been found.

[Ferrata]

They only issue with this at the moment is the difference between the marines and the primarch. For my reading, nearly all the marines had a similar manner to their gene-fathers although they were much muted (for example, the World Eaters before hand, the War Dogs, were still rather fighty-choppy, but Angron was massively fighty-choppy). I think it is a good idea, but maybe the primarch should be involved with the idea unless it was more nurture not nature that turned him. That would be the only way around it really.

 

Since you're a fairly veteran Liberite, I assume, I won't butcher you for using the Lost Legions as a base (something which other people don't mind, but I do).

I think this is a common misconception which I haven't really thought about correcting. The rules set up in the DIY Guide aren't really meant to be strict rules that people should follow. They are more the training wheels for creating a good chapter. You could create a Space Wolf chapter, but if it is your first attempt at creating a chapter you are more likely than not going screw it up if you use Space Wolf gene-seed as it is a very difficult task. Making a good Lost Legion is one of the hardest tasks - I was even thinking about making a Liber challenge about it until people suggested that not many people would enter. Also, a lot of people use these as cheap hooks to make their chapters special, which is never good.

 

However, I think this could be done with a normal chapter, I don't think it needs to be a Lost Legion but it is an interesting approach.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

It doesn't need to be a lost legion or Primarch at all.

 

Yes the drama and gravity of the whole deal is ratcheted up a few notches for us 40k fanatics at the mention of marines battling their own Primarch but honestly, you don't need it.

 

The marines could be following a particularly inspiring and capable commander through thick and thin before his character begins to sour and his men - who have more discipline/integrity/faith/loyalty (whatever you are aiming for here) - duly turn on him.

 

If you want this idea to be workable within the confines of the Liber and the Librarium I think it's best to ditch the Lost Legion approach. However if this is just a personal project with none of those ambitions, I say go for it. It would make for an interesting story for sure.

 

Though really, that's exactly what I think of it. It would be a fun story to write, not really material for a proper article.

[The Normish]

Since you're a fairly veteran Liberite, I assume, I won't butcher you for using the Lost Legions as a base (something which other people don't mind, but I do).

I think this is a common misconception which I haven't really thought about correcting. The rules set up in the DIY Guide aren't really meant to be strict rules that people should follow. They are more the training wheels for creating a good chapter. You could create a Space Wolf chapter, but if it is your first attempt at creating a chapter you are more likely than not going screw it up if you use Space Wolf gene-seed as it is a very difficult task. Making a good Lost Legion is one of the hardest tasks - I was even thinking about making a Liber challenge about it until people suggested that not many people would enter. Also, a lot of people use these as cheap hooks to make their chapters special, which is never good.

 

However, I think this could be done with a normal chapter, I don't think it needs to be a Lost Legion but it is an interesting approach.

Oh, I know everyone is free to do that. I just would tend to butcher people for it. I personally don't like the idea of fluffing out the Lost Legions, but anyone can if they want, obviously.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

They only issue with this at the moment is the difference between the marines and the primarch. For my reading, nearly all the marines had a similar manner to their gene-fathers although they were much muted (for example, the World Eaters before hand, the War Dogs, were still rather fighty-choppy, but Angron was massively fighty-choppy). I think it is a good idea, but maybe the primarch should be involved with the idea unless it was more nurture not nature that turned him. That would be the only way around it really.

 

However, I think this could be done with a normal chapter, I don't think it needs to be a Lost Legion but it is an interesting approach.

 

You'll see :)

 

Though, really, I would like to say more, but that would probably give it way, so... :)

 

It doesn't need to be a lost legion or Primarch at all.

 

Yes the drama and gravity of the whole deal is ratcheted up a few notches for us 40k fanatics at the mention of marines battling their own Primarch but honestly, you don't need it.

 

The marines could be following a particularly inspiring and capable commander through thick and thin before his character begins to sour and his men - who have more discipline/integrity/faith/loyalty (whatever you are aiming for here) - duly turn on him.

 

If you want this idea to be workable within the confines of the Liber and the Librarium I think it's best to ditch the Lost Legion approach. However if this is just a personal project with none of those ambitions, I say go for it. It would make for an interesting story for sure.

 

Though really, that's exactly what I think of it. It would be a fun story to write, not really material for a proper article.

 

Your right! That's exactly what you think.

 

I kid! I kid! But the Lost Legions would just be better for it. Yeah, sure, you can have a normal chapter, blah blah blah, but right now the Lost Legions are considered untouchable and a joke at the same time. That isn't right, blast it, and I have an epic story in mind. I don't want the glory and I'm not being ambitious, I want to remove the "Don't do the Lost Legions" mentality, and replace it at least with "Wait until you have an IA/It under your belt before doing the Lost Legions".

 

They are lost because GW wanted them to be used for this purpose. They'll remain lost, and they should be more than a joke or something you avoid. They should be the possibility for uniqueness unfettered by the communities ridicule.

[Leonaides]

They should be the possibility for uniqueness unfettered by the communities ridicule.

 

They should. But at the moment the uniqueness they have is the same as every goth/emo/troubled teen who dresses in exactly the same way as his/her/its chosen social sub-group "because I want to be different!" - just like the other few thousand of them.

 

So sadly, the people who are likely to be able to do a really good, well researched and fully fluffed lost legion get drowned out by the hordes of literary nightmares who 'have a cool idea thats never been done' (apart from the other few hundred times that they just havent bothered to look at) and think that they're the next Dan Brown/Tolkein/Robert Jordan...

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The mark of a great story is one that can be told universally, not something that is locked into a certain set of circumstances.

 

A good character is much the same.

 

That is why the best 40k stories are ones that could easily be retold outside of the context of the Warhammer 40.000 universe.

 

You write a good story and it doesn't matter what titles or positions the characters hold.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

They should be the possibility for uniqueness unfettered by the communities ridicule.

 

They should. But at the moment the uniqueness they have is the same as every goth/emo/troubled teen who dresses in exactly the same way as his/her/its chosen social sub-group "because I want to be different!" - just like the other few thousand of them.

 

So sadly, the people who are likely to be able to do a really good, well researched and fully fluffed lost legion get drowned out by the hordes of literary nightmares who 'have a cool idea thats never been done' (apart from the other few hundred times that they just havent bothered to look at) and think that they're the next Dan Brown/Tolkein/Robert Jordan...

 

Right, which is why you say "Wait until you know what you're doing, try this (this being an IA/IT) out first".

 

They'll either learn, like I did (because my original chapter had special snowflake syndrome, now look ta what I'm doing), or they'll give up/be ignored.

 

I think that the best way, actually, to ensure that they change instead of just giving up is to explain the difference between cool and awesome, and why cool is better. I know that helped me out, and most teens will respond better to a strong suggestion with logic and actual concern than to an order with logic and the experience of ages.

 

Again, I say this from personal experience. My first chapter thread was absolutely crushed by the weight of facts I had no idea about before hand, and I listened to the people who were saying "It'll be cooler if you expand on This and cut down on That" and fought the people who were going "You can't have A, B, C, D... because of some reason that you've never heard about before.

 

Sorry, guys, went off on a total tangent there.

[Shinzaren]

Maybe this is just me, but I'm noticing issues here. If the Emperor says he is making them more like their Father, that tells me their Primarch has been found. Yet, it's only later that they find him.

 

Secondly, Primarchs are to Marines as Marines are Men. Incapacitation would be an INCREDIBLY difficult task, and would result in a myriad of deaths. Yes, a Primarch needs blood, but one hammer blow to the head would not keep him under for any extended amount of time, the super enhanced bodies of a Primarch would rapidly adapt.

 

Third, how did they build a secret chamber designed to hold a primarch, whose powers had never been seen?

 

Fourth, if this Primarch is a conduit to Dark Gods, and is warped to the point of being the antithesis of Sanguinus, would he be allowed to live? Assuming capture was even remotely possible, which, to me, it would not be.

 

Fifth, you're stating that your marines are the equal to Custodes? That seems really OP. I know you are trying to balance this with their physical and spiritual deformities, but it still seems too much.

 

Sixth, Custodes very roughly translates to Guards. Dark Custodes would be Dark Guards. What are they guarding? They would get their own title, and their own name, not just copy the Emperor's Custodes.

 

As usual, I show up and immediately tear into your work. Sorry about that. However, like the Wraiths, I think this idea has a lot of merit. I agree with GHY though. Perhaps avoid the Lost Legion route, and avoid the Primarch route? However, if you're determined to do this, tone everyone down a bit? And try and paint a slightly clearer picture? That said, the story is engaging. It does make me wanna see more. Just don't go vampire/undead route. That would kill it for me. Perhaps your marines hide their altered nature by never removing their armor in the presence of others? Though your Primarch having giant bat-wings seems a bit much. It seems a bit too Daemon Prince to me. Could just be me though, I dunno. Anywho... Look forward to seeing more on these guys. AFTER the Wraiths though. Don't make me shove some ADHD meds down your throat :)

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Maybe this is just me, but I'm noticing issues here. If the Emperor says he is making them more like their Father, that tells me their Primarch has been found. Yet, it's only later that they find him.

 

Yeah, but... I don't know, I always figured that the Emperor knew what his sons looked like. If that's a mistake, I'll fix that.

 

Also, I wanted to kind of couple 'horror/bad' with 'Primarch' almost straightaway, and get the reader wondering what is up with this primarch.

 

Secondly, Primarchs are to Marines as Marines are Men. Incapacitation would be an INCREDIBLY difficult task, and would result in a myriad of deaths. Yes, a Primarch needs blood, but one hammer blow to the head would not keep him under for any extended amount of time, the super enhanced bodies of a Primarch would rapidly adapt.

 

Yeah, I realize that, just didn't detail that. Failure on my part, didn't quite think that one out.

 

Third, how did they build a secret chamber designed to hold a primarch, whose powers had never been seen?

 

Have you read After Desh'ea? Apparently, aboard the War Hounds flagship there was a chamber designed to hold the primarch of the War Hounds. I figure, if the War Hounds have one, why shouldn't the Second Legion?

 

Fourth, if this Primarch is a conduit to Dark Gods, and is warped to the point of being the antithesis of Sanguinus, would he be allowed to live? Assuming capture was even remotely possible, which, to me, it would not be.

 

He wasn't warped, they just worshipped him as a conduit to their perceived gods. He wasn't actually a conduit, he was just taguht that he was, something that I'll go into later.

 

Fifth, you're stating that your marines are the equal to Custodes? That seems really OP. I know you are trying to balance this with their physical and spiritual deformities, but it still seems too much.

 

And low numbers, and their primarch, the primarch being the main component... which I have yet to go into.

 

Sixth, Custodes very roughly translates to Guards. Dark Custodes would be Dark Guards. What are they guarding? They would get their own title, and their own name, not just copy the Emperor's Custodes.

 

Nothing, just did custodes because I wanted a solid point of reference for their abilities without directly saying "They are worth two to three astartes and have wings"

 

As usual, I show up and immediately tear into your work. Sorry about that. However, like the Wraiths, I think this idea has a lot of merit. I agree with GHY though. Perhaps avoid the Lost Legion route, and avoid the Primarch route? However, if you're determined to do this, tone everyone down a bit? And try and paint a slightly clearer picture? That said, the story is engaging. It does make me wanna see more. Just don't go vampire/undead route. That would kill it for me. Perhaps your marines hide their altered nature by never removing their armor in the presence of others? Though your Primarch having giant bat-wings seems a bit much. It seems a bit too Daemon Prince to me. Could just be me though, I dunno. Anywho... Look forward to seeing more on these guys. AFTER the Wraiths though. Don't make me shove some ADHD meds down your throat :D

 

It's ok, you have actual logic and don't do it because "Canon fluff doesn't like it that way", which has always bugged me... plus, you are willing to be flexible with my work. It's always nice to have a flexible suggestion.

 

Not saying the other Liberites don't do this, but, well, have you heard the qoute about Liberites and bowling balls yet? :P

 

Undead wasn't even on my mind. Although Necrons using them for Pariahs (assuming any are alive by that point) sounds like some juicy conversions...

 

I am trying really hard to make them powerful, but cool at the same time. The problem is, you need to see the full picture, which I haven't yet revealed.

 

I love the 'never remove armour' idea, although wings are pretty hard to hide. Hmm. This requires some thought.

 

The primarch needs wings because how else are the marines going to get them? From their uncle Sanguinus?

 

Updated the Wraiths, Shinzaren, no need for those ADHD pills... 'backs slowly away'

[Ace Debonair]

A lost Legion, eh? Funnily enough I had an idea for one of them myself...

Although I most assuredly have enough on my plate right now, so I'll give that a miss.

 

Not saying the other Liberites don't do this, but, well, have you heard the qoute about Liberites and bowling balls yet? :P

I've heard the one about Librarium Staff and bowling balls, if that's what you meant. ;)

 

Nothing, just did custodes because I wanted a solid point of reference for their abilities without directly saying "They are worth two to three astartes and have wings"

It'd be better if they were worth roughly between one and... one astartes. Legion or no legion, you can't make your marines better than, say, the Ultramarines or the Space Wolves (or even the Black Legion) without it ringing alarm bells in many people's heads. Those bells are followed by the question "Why are your marines 'worth two to three' of mine, exactly?"

 

There's also the fact that power does not equate personality. Making marines who are 'worth two to three' of everyone else's marines is probably something you should try to avoid.

 

Oops, sorry. That's slighty rant-y on my part, but it does need to be said. :lol:

 

Oddly enough, I have no problem with the wings. :P They don't have to be fully functional on all of your marines (ones with their wings damaged or severed could be your devastators or tank pilots, f'r instance)

 

The lower numbers and not being better than everyone else could also be a good way to assure that nobody else will try too hard to make use of your lads' geneseed, too. :(

[Shinzaren]

Ahh, they all have wings? I guessed I missed that point. That raises new questions...

1.) Are they simply aesthetic, or do they possess the power of flight? If they can fly, the wings need to be HUGE. Like, bigger than the model is capable of representing. Most people, especially in sci-fi, don't seem to realize this, but flight is HARD. To lift a marine who has no armor would still be amazingly difficult; to raise an armored one would be nigh-impossible. Attaining lift without an external form of thrust requires a massively massive wingspan. Birds circumvent this somewhat by having hollow bones, which is basically the polar opposite of the hardened bones of an Astartes.

2.) Wings are a huge give away that something is probably wrong, and they are wildly mutated. Sanguinus got away with his for two reasons. First that he was angelicly beautiful, and his wings added to that. Secondly, he was a Primarch, so he got a lot more leeway.

3.) How do they stuff these wings into transports, and closed spaces?

4.) Is their armor specially designed with holes in the back for the wings to poke through? If so, how do they remain sealed in cases of outer space battles, lethal words, or oxygen deficient worlds?

5.) What purpose do the wings serve, besides looking awesome? If that is the only reason they are there, I think it needs to be rethought. I don't know how integral they are to the story itself, but it raises some flags for me.

 

Having said all that, I must piggy-back on Ace and agree that your marines being worth 2-3 other marines is very hard to swallow. I understand you are trying to balance this with low numbers, hideous mutation, bad Primarch, etc etc, but it still raises my hackles that your marines are better than everyone else. Anywho... just some more thoughts/comments for you <_< Looking forward to seeing more on these guys.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Bumpity bum bum, bumpity bum bum...

 

Sorry guys, haven't been able to get on lately for various reasons, but I'll be adding soon as I can get on for a length of time.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ahh, they all have wings? I guessed I missed that point. That raises new questions...

1.) Are they simply aesthetic, or do they possess the power of flight? If they can fly, the wings need to be HUGE. Like, bigger than the model is capable of representing. Most people, especially in sci-fi, don't seem to realize this, but flight is HARD. To lift a marine who has no armor would still be amazingly difficult; to raise an armored one would be nigh-impossible. Attaining lift without an external form of thrust requires a massively massive wingspan. Birds circumvent this somewhat by having hollow bones, which is basically the polar opposite of the hardened bones of an Astartes.

2.) Wings are a huge give away that something is probably wrong, and they are wildly mutated. Sanguinus got away with his for two reasons. First that he was angelicly beautiful, and his wings added to that. Secondly, he was a Primarch, so he got a lot more leeway.

3.) How do they stuff these wings into transports, and closed spaces?

4.) Is their armor specially designed with holes in the back for the wings to poke through? If so, how do they remain sealed in cases of outer space battles, lethal words, or oxygen deficient worlds?

5.) What purpose do the wings serve, besides looking awesome? If that is the only reason they are there, I think it needs to be rethought. I don't know how integral they are to the story itself, but it raises some flags for me.

 

Having said all that, I must piggy-back on Ace and agree that your marines being worth 2-3 other marines is very hard to swallow. I understand you are trying to balance this with low numbers, hideous mutation, bad Primarch, etc etc, but it still raises my hackles that your marines are better than everyone else. Anywho... just some more thoughts/comments for you <_< Looking forward to seeing more on these guys.

1) Nope, posesses power of flight. Although I hate to do this, I'm going to have to pull Rule of Cool on this one. Half the things in 40k couldn't function without it, so that'll be the useful plot tool contribution for the Sons.

2) Um... ok?

3) They don't... which reminds me - when I eventually transform this into an IL, part of their combat doctrine and a couple other things will mention the inability to use Drop Pods, Rhino variants, Terminator armour, Jump Packs (although Jump packs are kind of redundant anyways) and similar items, as well as being vulnerable to enemy sniper fire, as well as lacking any stealth.

4) Yes, Tryr is going to have friends with the Ad Mech, seeing as they were similarily shunned for different reasons. I don't know how the hostile enviroment is going to wrok though, as even rule of cool can't justify armour on wings... Hmmm...

5) They are there for three reasons - 1], they need to have severe mutations, 2] they need to be fairly daemonic looking without actually being daemonic, and 3] their primarch needs to have some basis for his arrogance.

 

My marines aren't better than everybody else... they should be, but in the 31st millenium, they're not ;)

 

A tragedy requires something good to be wrongly ruined, my friends...

[Brother-Captain Jericho]

While I'm new here, not as active as I want to be, I'd like to read an IA about a "lost legion". Just like I'd like to read one based on traitor geneseed. To me, the story matters more that the cliche. If its good, its good - even if it uses devices that have been done before. If its bad, you can follow the all the guidelines you want and that wouldn't make it good.

[Leonaides]

They are there for three reasons - 1], they need to have severe mutations, 2] they need to be fairly daemonic looking without actually being daemonic, and 3] their primarch needs to have some basis for his arrogance.

And that is a mistake. Severe mutations does not have to equal wings. Neither do wings neccessarily add anything to looking Daemonic. Neither would having wings neccessarily be a basis for an arrogant Primarch.

 

Thousand Sons had severe mutations - but they didnt have wings. Bloodletters ARE daemonic, but dont have wings - how many Daemons actually have wings? Not many. Fulgrim was a stuck-up arrogant so-and-so, but he didnt have wings. Get your head sorted about why you want wings specifically. Then write the fluff. Dont think "I want wings, but I dont know how to justify wings, so I'll just say XXX."

 

Sang had wings, and it didnt manifest in any BA's, so why should you r primarch having wings manifest in your marines? Your marines could be just as mutated and daemonic-looking with some sort of mucranoid organ mutation that causes their skin to harden, almost like scales or old leather, going almsot black as the marine ages, but where the skin flexes, it cracks and bleeds. Imagine a face like a broken lava-flow, with hard dark scabs of leathery skin and bright red cracks oozing blood with every movement. The pain would be nothing to stop the marines functioning, but it would look like a nightmare made flesh. Maybe your primarch was arrogant because of the fear he instilled in the society he grew up in, them worshiping him as the devil incarnate, and then the psychological damage when he learns that he is merely one of 20 brothers, with the Emperor over him. going from a God, to a minoin in one day, thats the kind of thing that causes problems for some people...

 

This means you can drop this bit:

inability to use Drop Pods, Rhino variants, Terminator armour, Jump Packs (although Jump packs are kind of redundant anyways) and similar items, as well as being vulnerable to enemy sniper fire, as well as lacking any stealt

 

Becasue not being able to use the standard vehicles and wargear of the legions makes your guys just a bit on the useless side. Cant perform the most basic surgical strike, cant crew any vehicles, cant engage in boarding actions as well as any other legion, yadda yadda yadda...

[Shinzaren]

Don't take this too personally Dark, but I HATE the rule of cool. While it serves a basic function, I dislike anything that solely exists and works, just because it looks/is awesome. That is an immediate turn off. What do the wings add? Why do they need them? Mutation can be evidenced in a myriad of way far more realistic and attainably than wings. And if you cut the wings, you can add the awesome part about never removing their armor where others can see them; like someone suggested.... :lol:

 

I think you have an amazing idea, and like the Wraiths, you are adding just a bit too much, and getting too attached to something impractical. These guys are really cool sounded and unique without the wings. The wings are kind of a killer for me, as they impose so many restrictions, and raise so many questions for people like me, who hate the rule of cool.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

They are there for three reasons - 1], they need to have severe mutations, 2] they need to be fairly daemonic looking without actually being daemonic, and 3] their primarch needs to have some basis for his arrogance.

And that is a mistake. Severe mutations does not have to equal wings. Neither do wings neccessarily add anything to looking Daemonic. Neither would having wings neccessarily be a basis for an arrogant Primarch.

 

Thousand Sons had severe mutations - but they didnt have wings. Bloodletters ARE daemonic, but dont have wings - how many Daemons actually have wings? Not many. Fulgrim was a stuck-up arrogant so-and-so, but he didnt have wings. Get your head sorted about why you want wings specifically. Then write the fluff. Dont think "I want wings, but I dont know how to justify wings, so I'll just say XXX."

 

Sang had wings, and it didnt manifest in any BA's, so why should you r primarch having wings manifest in your marines? Your marines could be just as mutated and daemonic-looking with some sort of mucranoid organ mutation that causes their skin to harden, almost like scales or old leather, going almsot black as the marine ages, but where the skin flexes, it cracks and bleeds. Imagine a face like a broken lava-flow, with hard dark scabs of leathery skin and bright red cracks oozing blood with every movement. The pain would be nothing to stop the marines functioning, but it would look like a nightmare made flesh. Maybe your primarch was arrogant because of the fear he instilled in the society he grew up in, them worshiping him as the devil incarnate, and then the psychological damage when he learns that he is merely one of 20 brothers, with the Emperor over him. going from a God, to a minoin in one day, thats the kind of thing that causes problems for some people...

 

This means you can drop this bit:

inability to use Drop Pods, Rhino variants, Terminator armour, Jump Packs (although Jump packs are kind of redundant anyways) and similar items, as well as being vulnerable to enemy sniper fire, as well as lacking any stealt

 

Becasue not being able to use the standard vehicles and wargear of the legions makes your guys just a bit on the useless side. Cant perform the most basic surgical strike, cant crew any vehicles, cant engage in boarding actions as well as any other legion, yadda yadda yadda...

 

Don't take this too personally Dark, but I HATE the rule of cool. While it serves a basic function, I dislike anything that solely exists and works, just because it looks/is awesome. That is an immediate turn off. What do the wings add? Why do they need them? Mutation can be evidenced in a myriad of way far more realistic and attainably than wings. And if you cut the wings, you can add the awesome part about never removing their armor where others can see them; like someone suggested.... :P

 

I think you have an amazing idea, and like the Wraiths, you are adding just a bit too much, and getting too attached to something impractical. These guys are really cool sounded and unique without the wings. The wings are kind of a killer for me, as they impose so many restrictions, and raise so many questions for people like me, who hate the rule of cool.

 

 

'sighs'

 

I want to make them good. I want to make them worthy. I want to make them have the ability to be seriously awesome. And I want them to be treated like crap by the Imperium because they aren't 'normal'.

 

This may seem aggravating and self jsutification, but I need to make them seem awesome so that when the ending comes, you're left with a feeling of genuine sorrow for the fate of these humble, mutant astartes.

[Leonaides]

astartes already are awesome. You're putting too much sugarcoating on top... Wings, like teleporting, are too much, and you really dont need them. They will only cause you problems in the writing, and raise peoples hackles when they read it, no matter what you do. You're almost using them as a crutch for your IT, but its a particularly weak crutch, and will only dump you on your face. You can do better.

[Ace Debonair]

'sighs'

 

I want to make them good. I want to make them worthy. I want to make them have the ability to be seriously awesome. And I want them to be treated like crap by the Imperium because they aren't 'normal'.

 

This may seem aggravating and self jsutification, but I need to make them seem awesome so that when the ending comes, you're left with a feeling of genuine sorrow for the fate of these humble, mutant astartes.

 

Seriously awesome DIY chapters are the ones that sound believable in the universe. The same goes for legions, maybe even moreso.

Adding wings, and all the problems thusly associated, detracts from that.

 

A legion of astartes with wings is, well, trying too hard. It's clearly playing to awesome instead of cool. And cool is always the goal.

 

I'd have only the Primarch with the wings - like a twisted reflection of Sanguinius - and have the Imperium at large despise him for his looks.

The whole legion could suffer the same hatred because of their Primarch's appearance, instead of their own. Hatred by association - wouldn't that be even more tragic?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'sighs'

 

I want to make them good. I want to make them worthy. I want to make them have the ability to be seriously awesome. And I want them to be treated like crap by the Imperium because they aren't 'normal'.

 

This may seem aggravating and self jsutification, but I need to make them seem awesome so that when the ending comes, you're left with a feeling of genuine sorrow for the fate of these humble, mutant astartes.

 

Seriously awesome DIY chapters are the ones that sound believable in the universe. The same goes for legions, maybe even moreso.

Adding wings, and all the problems thusly associated, detracts from that.

 

A legion of astartes with wings is, well, trying too hard. It's clearly playing to awesome instead of cool. And cool is always the goal.

 

I'd have only the Primarch with the wings - like a twisted reflection of Sanguinius - and have the Imperium at large despise him for his looks.

The whole legion could suffer the same hatred because of their Primarch's appearance, instead of their own. Hatred by association - wouldn't that be even more tragic?

It was going to be largely due to that as well too. I haven't even shown you how truly humble they were.

 

Look, You guys can question my decision, or you can wait to see what I'm going to do with it. Either way, I'm going to make the complete IL - with all the headings and sections - before trying to tweak it.