Sons of the Daemon

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

DAT, you are possibly one of the single most stubborn and bloody-minded individuals I have seen grace the halls of the Liber. Ever.

 

This is not an attack upon you or any sort of derision of your work, keep that in mind.

 

 

The reason this stubborn behavior is so unbelievably frustrating is because you have the talent and the skill, as evidenced by some of your work for the Wraths and your idea here with the Sons of the Daemon, to create some great IA/IT's.

 

Your problem is that you get far too attached to an idea, workable or not. There are times when it will make your life infinitely easier and allow your project room to grow if you simply shelve an idea for a while and see how it goes. Yes these articles are your creation and yes by extension you should be allowed to pursue whatever ideas you want but this is the Liber. You post here to gain input and criticism from the members of the board so that you can improve your work.

 

These marines are character driven entities. Whether it is a group characterization (loyalist chapters) or individual personalities (heretics and traitors), it is more about who they are rather than what they look like and what their abilities are. If these physical attributes affect their psyche and personality then yes they can have a place, but they shouldn't be the focus, it detracts from the core character, from who they are and in the end that is what we are here to read about.

 

You are, in one way or another telling a story. No it's not your typical narrative found in novels, short stories or comics. Nevertheless you are telling a story and a story has to have characters. A character is only interesting if you can relate to them, if they elicit some kind of emotional response in you. A particularly devious and callous villain can leave you on the metaphorical edge of your seat as you read how he is just about to destroy your lovable heroes life in some dastardly way.

 

You don't get particularly bothered about the villains description, whether he has wings or fangs or claws really other than to create a mental picture of them. It's his actions, not his looks or his words that define the character, these are secondary, they are derived from the core of the character itself.

 

You may bring up Superman here. Yes he is a superhero defined by his superpowers. That is his definition. He is also arguably one of the dullest and most boring of all the superhero characters from any universe. Some of the best? Batman. No superpowers. The heroes from Watchmen, more characters than superheroes.

 

Look at Deadpool, arguably his physical abilities are more an extension of his core personality than anything else and is a rather fun and interesting (anti)hero character.

 

 

To finish up, I think you can guess how I am against the wings and am totally with Shinzaren here. I hate the Rule of Cool, or in this case as Ace pointed out quite rightly, the Rule of Awesome.

 

You are having your ideas constructively critiqued repeatedly by some of the best writers currently in the Liber (particularly Ace and Shinzaren, not to mention the seemingly long-suffering Leonidas) and while I admire your perseverance with your work despite a boatload of criticism in some areas and some rather hard problems in others, there are times when forging ahead regardless of the flak thrown your way is not the best course.

 

Discretion over when to stick to your guns and when to take a different route will make you a stronger writer in the end.

[Ace Debonair]

It was going to be largely due to that as well too. I haven't even shown you how truly humble they were.

 

Look, You guys can question my decision, or you can wait to see what I'm going to do with it. Either way, I'm going to make the complete IL - with all the headings and sections - before trying to tweak it.

Oi, hang on. :P

You're posting stuff in the Liber, and you don't want our opinions on it?

 

I'll admit, we're not in possession of all the details of this legion, unlike yourself.

We have to do what we can with what's in front of us, and when that's not the full story, well... ^_^

 

I have little doubt that you've got something cool in mind for these guys. My concern is if it's something that will kick my suspension of disbelief in the fork.

 

Speaking as a guy who had to scrap what he considered most of his best ideas for his Iron Gauntlet Chapter just to make it fit in with 40k, I know the pain of having to let cool ideas go. But speaking from that same perspective, I know that each time I did, I got something more believable, and it was cooler for it.

 

This is not an attack upon you or any sort of derision of your work, keep that in mind.

Agreed 100%.

I'm just trying to keep the bowling-ball/face interaction by the Librarium guys to a minimum. :tu:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

DAT, you are possibly one of the single most stubborn and bloody-minded individuals I have seen grace the halls of the Liber. Ever.

 

This is not an attack upon you or any sort of derision of your work, keep that in mind.

 

The reason this stubborn behavior is so unbelievably frustrating is because you have the talent and the skill, as evidenced by some of your work for the Wraths and your idea here with the Sons of the Daemon, to create some great IA/IT's.

I know. I know all of this. I also know that you only want the best for my projects. Ultimately, however, you cannot see the ending of this project. Trust me. Help me, guide me and show me where I am wrong, but when it comes down to it, trust me. That's all I ask of you.

 

Your problem is that you get far too attached to an idea, workable or not. There are times when it will make your life infinitely easier and allow your project room to grow if you simply shelve an idea for a while and see how it goes. Yes these articles are your creation and yes by extension you should be allowed to pursue whatever ideas you want but this is the Liber. You post here to gain input and criticism from the members of the board so that you can improve your work.

 

These marines are character driven entities. Whether it is a group characterization (loyalist chapters) or individual personalities (heretics and traitors), it is more about who they are rather than what they look like and what their abilities are. If these physical attributes affect their psyche and personality then yes they can have a place, but they shouldn't be the focus, it detracts from the core character, from who they are and in the end that is what we are here to read about.

 

You are, in one way or another telling a story. No it's not your typical narrative found in novels, short stories or comics. Nevertheless you are telling a story and a story has to have characters. A character is only interesting if you can relate to them, if they elicit some kind of emotional response in you. A particularly devious and callous villain can leave you on the metaphorical edge of your seat as you read how he is just about to destroy your lovable heroes life in some dastardly way.

 

You don't get particularly bothered about the villains description, whether he has wings or fangs or claws really other than to create a mental picture of them. It's his actions, not his looks or his words that define the character, these are secondary, they are derived from the core of the character itself.

 

You may bring up Superman here. Yes he is a superhero defined by his superpowers. That is his definition. He is also arguably one of the dullest and most boring of all the superhero characters from any universe. Some of the best? Batman. No superpowers. The heroes from Watchmen, more characters than superheroes.

 

Look at Deadpool, arguably his physical abilities are more an extension of his core personality than anything else and is a rather fun and interesting (anti)hero character.

 

 

To finish up, I think you can guess how I am against the wings and am totally with Shinzaren here. I hate the Rule of Cool, or in this case as Ace pointed out quite rightly, the Rule of Awesome.

 

You are having your ideas constructively critiqued repeatedly by some of the best writers currently in the Liber (particularly Ace and Shinzaren, not to mention the seemingly long-suffering Leonidas) and while I admire your perseverance with your work despite a boatload of criticism in some areas and some rather hard problems in others, there are times when forging ahead regardless of the flak thrown your way is not the best course.

 

Discretion over when to stick to your guns and when to take a different route will make you a stronger writer in the end.

 

I know this. I myself am a firm beleiver in all of this, mostly thanks to you guys. But the Imperium is not the audience who is judging their character based on what I have written. They base it off of appearance, and it will have an effect on how the Legion develops, and that is where their tragedy lies.

 

Trust me. Please, let me update this tommorrow, and show you what I mean.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Time to feed this brainchild :devil:

 

When the Emperor came to his fourth son, he was met with only anger. But this was not the wild anger of Angron, found later, this was a sly, insulting anger that sought to undermine the Emperor's self assurance and confidence. This attempt only angered the Emperor, and he sent for Horus, Sanguinus, and Lion El' Johnson. In the meantime, he was deemed enlightened enough to command his legion.

 

The Second Legion, he saw as clay sculpted in his image, that he had not put his own impression on. He took the Legion's apothecaries and he ordered them to make some very specific changes to the geneseed of his sons. They became darker and fouler of skin, were given hoarse voices, and had their hands and feet changed into more clawlike things. Tryr, who commanded the Legion by time the changes became widespread, ordered that aside from their wings the Legionaires would keep their armour on while in the presence of outsiders, where their voices would be simply those of the armour's vox, where they couldn't be ridiculed for their almost daemonic skin, where their appendages were simply adamantium gauntlets and boots.

 

But that was before they earned the moniker 'Sons of the Daemon', although the changes that would mark them as such - at least to the Imperium - had already begun.

 

The Second Legion's primarch met with the other primarchs already found and their senior staff. Sanguinus, cordial as always, greeted him and jokingly called him his most fitting brother yet. It was Horus Aximand, however, who called him the Daemon. Throughout the meeting he only proved his title was well earned. He casually insulted Horus, mocked Sanguinus, and degraded their staff as well as his own. He acted as though he should be worshiped, as he was before the coming of the Imperium, and generally held himself as the only one worthy.

 

The only one he treated even slightly decently was El' Johnson, claiming that he was wise for choosing to remain silent for the majority of time. Disgusted, the primarchs and their staff told their legions of the sheer arrogance of the Daemon. Tryr, wise enough to know what would ensue even while the meeting still took place, and hung his head in shame. The Second Legion's commanding officers all respected and looked up to Tryr, and he was humbled by his father. This humility took root in the legion now known as the Sons of the Daemon.

 

 

 

 

This is as much as I can do right now, guys, but more is on the way.

[Leonaides]

someone fetch the bowling balls... Sorry dat, this might smart a bit:-) i'll kick off with why the bejesus is the emperor giving a legion to a primarch who's trying to undermine him to his face? Let alone one who has actually angered him? Even horus didn't do that. You've outdone angron, horus, overwritten sang's fluff that everyone liked him and done a few things that simply wont work in a 40k setting... You're trying too hard to make these guys too uber.

[Leonaides]

edit- double post Edited October 1, 2010 by Leonaides

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Look, You guys can question my decision, or you can wait to see what I'm going to do with it. Either way, I'm going to make the complete IL - with all the headings and sections - before trying to tweak it.

 

Aside from what Ace said, which I agree with one hundred percent, that's a bit like building load-bearing wall out of balsa wood and then having to rebuild half of the house when the rest of the construction collapses because the balsa wood was an unbelievably terrible choice of construction material.

 

 

Honestly, I feel like I'm hitting a rather intractable hard surface with my scone over and over again.

 

You can't know something without learning from your mistakes, which you patently aren't. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as somewhat blunt but I'm just not in right frame of mind to be more diplomatic. Not to mention that you're doing exactly what was warned of earlier.

 

When the Emperor came to his fourth son, he was met with only anger. But this was not the wild anger of Angron, found later, this was a sly, insulting anger that sought to undermine the Emperor's self assurance and confidence. This attempt only angered the Emperor, and he sent for Horus, Sanguinus, and Lion El' Johnson. In the meantime, he was deemed enlightened enough to command his legion.

 

Am I the only one totally confused by this? I do not understand, at all, any of it. There is no backstory before this, there is nothing except some extremely questionable behaviour and then the apparent dolling out of tasks that have no context.

 

They became darker and fouler of skin, were given hoarse voices, and had their hands and feet changed into more clawlike things. Tryr, who commanded the Legion by time the changes became widespread, ordered that aside from their wings the Legionaires would keep their armour on while in the presence of outsiders, where their voices would be simply those of the armour's vox, where they couldn't be ridiculed for their almost daemonic skin, where their appendages were simply adamantium gauntlets and boots.

 

Rule of awesome. There is so much 'awesome' here and absolutely nothing substantial.

 

I'm sorry but you are setting them up far too high for the fall they are supposed to be taking.

 

You sound more like you're taking Fulgrim after his corruption and turning him into a different primarch who has no tact, no diplomacy or really, much intelligence if this is how he treats basically the honour roll for the most powerful and fearsome collection of beings in the galaxy at that time.

 

The problem is not that he is a complete tool. The problem is that he is gaining nothing at all by producing all this enmity between himself, his legion and everyone else. Even the corrupted Fulgrim maintained some semblance of normality and relatively decent behaviour until it no longer served a purpose.

 

You're making him out to sound like a really fantastic reason the records were expunged. He was a mistake, a deeply, irredeemably flawed creation and so should have been removed from existence the moment the Emperor determined his true character.

 

 

I'm reminded of the similarity between your mentality to simply push on and hope everyone sees the cool stuff you are and another member of the board who a long time ago argued for multiple pages about his fluff for including a Titan in his chapter, Saxxon Dragoon. He would swear up and down that his fluff was good and that we were all just being unfair in our judgment of his idea to be utterly idiotic.

 

Now your ideas are good, some of them are very good in concept. They are simply losing something in translation to the page. I know you love them and that's great, we should all love our creations such as these IT/IA's but you really, really need to tone them down.

 

 

I know. I know all of this.

 

Do you? Really? Because you seem to be making the same choices time and time again.

 

Thinking you know is a problem. The more you "know" the less you can learn.

 

I'm not trying to insult you I'm just trying to work out just what you're trying to do here and why.

 

 

Apologies if I come across entirely too harsh but I've had my fill of being diplomatic so hopefully a good sharp kick will let you take another look at these guys and pull things back a bit.

[Ace Debonair]

When the Emperor came to his fourth son, he was met with only anger. But this was not the wild anger of Angron, found later, this was a sly, insulting anger that sought to undermine the Emperor's self assurance and confidence. This attempt only angered the Emperor, and he sent for Horus, Sanguinus, and Lion El' Johnson. In the meantime, he was deemed enlightened enough to command his legion.

 

"I'm angry with you. Have a legion of dangerous killing machines to do your bidding."

 

Would the Emperor really do that?

Actually, don't answer that. But, this probably just needs some expansion. I'm sure you know why the Emperor would still trust this dude with a legion, but we're still in the dark here.

 

The Second Legion, he saw as clay sculpted in his image, that he had not put his own impression on. He took the Legion's apothecaries and he ordered them to make some very specific changes to the geneseed of his sons. They became darker and fouler of skin, were given hoarse voices, and had their hands and feet changed into more clawlike things. Tryr, who commanded the Legion by time the changes became widespread, ordered that aside from their wings the Legionaires would keep their armour on while in the presence of outsiders, where their voices would be simply those of the armour's vox, where they couldn't be ridiculed for their almost daemonic skin, where their appendages were simply adamantium gauntlets and boots.

 

The highlighted sentence is the only one I understood in this paragraph.

EDIT: Just realised I hadn't highlighted anything in that quote above. Doh!

You want them to cover themselves up to avoid ridicule... apart from the wings. Wouldn't they be a target for insults in the first place?

 

EDIT:

I'm sorry if I repeated anything anyone else said, but I haven't got time to read the other comments just now.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Shinzaren]

Ok, as usual, I ignore what other people have posted above me and just jumped right in. Let me lead with saying that I get the concept you are going for, at least I think I do. However, I think your execution is straying a bit. Your ideas are good for the most part, but they are generally getting muddled in with a bunch of stuff I don't like or agree with. As always, this is meant only to assist, and not as any kind of insult.

 

When the Emperor came to his fourth son, he was met with only anger. But this was not the wild anger of Angron, found later, this was a sly, insulting anger that sought to undermine the Emperor's self assurance and confidence. This attempt only angered the Emperor, and he sent for Horus, Sanguinus, and Lion El' Johnson. In the meantime, he was deemed enlightened enough to command his legion.

In the meantime? That's like meeting your long lost brother; who on the first day you meet, calls you ugly, insults your lifestyle and your job, then hits on your wife. After all this, you leave him to watch over your kids and take care of your wife while you go away on business. I dunno about that at all...

 

The Second Legion, he saw as clay sculpted in his image, that he had not put his own impression on. He took the Legion's apothecaries and he ordered them to make some very specific changes to the geneseed of his sons.

Tampering with gene-seed is a dangerous and fickle process, even during the Heresy, and there are no guarantees that

A.) It would work like Primarch 2 wanted, or

B.) That is wouldn't result in the further mutation of a wild and uncontrolled nature.

 

They became darker and fouler of skin, were given hoarse voices, and had their hands and feet changed into more clawlike things.

Why? What possible purpose does this serve? What does Primarch 2 gain from this? What are his motivations? This makes no sense.

 

Tryr, who commanded the Legion by time the changes became widespread, ordered that aside from their wings the Legionaires would keep their armour on while in the presence of outsiders, where their voices would be simply those of the armour's vox, where they couldn't be ridiculed for their almost daemonic skin, where their appendages were simply adamantium gauntlets and boots.

This is silly. Like really silly. They are gonna be mocked/hated by the rest of the Legions for their wings alone, you think covering the rest would serve any purpose? How do the wings fit through the armor? Do they poke out the back? What about the power pack? How does that work with the wings. Why wings? What purpose? Why is Tryr commanding the Legion? You said the Primarch now has control, so why would he let his #2 man give an order like this? I know I'm beating a dead horse, but the wings are a no go for me. None of the explanations given so far support them in any way, and all they do is break my suspension of disbelief. Especially if you let them fly on these wings. That would kill it for good. Please, I know you love the wings, but please either remove them, or come up with a REALLY good reason for them.

 

The Second Legion's primarch met with the other primarchs already found and their senior staff. Sanguinus, cordial as always, greeted him and jokingly called him his most fitting brother yet. It was Horus Aximand, however, who called him the Daemon.

Two things here that irk me.

A.) Using Horus Aximand seems like name dropping, and pointless name dropping at that.

B.) Even as a twisted, evil, jackass Primarch, your guy is still a Primarch, a being whose nature and power is second only to the Emperor himself. There is no way a normal marine, even one of the Mournival, would slap a nickname or moniker like this on him. Especially not where he could hear.

 

Throughout the meeting he only proved his title was well earned. He casually insulted Horus, mocked Sanguinus, and degraded their staff as well as his own. He acted as though he should be worshiped, as he was before the coming of the Imperium, and generally held himself as the only one worthy.

Why? Why? Why? What does he gain by insulting the most senior and respected Primarch? What are his motivations for mocking the most well liked of the Primarchs? Why does he want to turn the other Legions against him? Why?

 

The only one he treated even slightly decently was El' Johnson, claiming that he was wise for choosing to remain silent for the majority of time.

So this Gigantic Jerk likes the quiet guy? Why?

 

Disgusted, the primarchs and their staff told their legions of the sheer arrogance of the Daemon. Tryr, wise enough to know what would ensue even while the meeting still took place, and hung his head in shame.

Ok, Tryr is the sympathetic victim, the opposite of your Primarch's jerkiness. Sentence structure here is bad, but I think I understood.

 

The Second Legion's commanding officers all respected and looked up to Tryr, and he was humbled by his father. This humility took root in the legion now known as the Sons of the Daemon.

I think the word you are looking for is shame. He was shamed by his Father, and this shame took root in the Legion.

 

All in all, this addition doesn't add much to the overall story, and raises lots of questions. Not only that, but it doesn't support any of the wild theories/ideas that we've raised questions about in the past. Dark, as usual, you are overflowing with ideas, creativity, ambition, and energy; it's just all being lost a bit. Narrow your focus, tighten it a bit and cut some of the non-workable stuff, like the wings. Focus on the Who, rather than the What. Ace, Leo, and Grey are all saying the same thing, and I agree with them 100%. We're not after you, and we're not trying to rub you the wrong way, we're just trying to point out where we think some work could be done. As always, it is your chapter, your story, and your ideas, we just want them to fit in the universe as a whole, because they're so interesting and unique.

 

That's my 2 cents, maybe a few more. As always, looking forward to seeing how you work and adapt and build your narrative.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'sighs' Alright. I'll try and fix this.

 

I geuss even a brick wall crumbles before a demolisher cannon. My words, not yours, don't elaborate.

 

You may ask yourself, why am I folding? Why am I not being my characteristic brickwally self? Well, partially because I can't convey what I was trying to say, although various people got bits of it - basicly, Primarchs a tool, Tryr, and by extension the Second Legion are humble, wrongly shamed astartes, judged not by their actions but by their appearance and their primarch. The tragedy is only beginning, though.

 

I'll try and reconvey that so that other people can understand it better :wall

[Shinzaren]

'sighs' Alright. I'll try and fix this.

 

I geuss even a brick wall crumbles before a demolisher cannon. My words, not yours, don't elaborate.

 

You may ask yourself, why am I folding? Why am I not being my characteristic brickwally self? Well, partially because I can't convey what I was trying to say, although various people got bits of it - basicly, Primarchs a tool, Tryr, and by extension the Second Legion are humble, wrongly shamed astartes, judged not by their actions but by their appearance and their primarch. The tragedy is only beginning, though.

 

I'll try and reconvey that so that other people can understand it better :wall

 

This! This is the part that I saw glimpses of, lost in the sea of unnecessary things. This is the heart, the eternal idea that you need to build on. No wings; no lurid descriptions of confrontations between Primarchs. This.

 

1.) Tryr commands a Legion, a twisted Legion, but a Legion all the same.

2.) This Legion finds it's Liege. He is the twisted nature of their flesh, bound in life. He is everything wrong in them.

3.) The Legion faces it's Father's flaws. They hate and despise themselves for what he made them. They struggle, through battle and shame.

4.) The Progenitor is cast down, though the Corruption remains. There is no honor for them now, only exile. Only cleansing through death.

5.) They are Legion, lost forever, but granted the last honor of their choice. To secede themselves from all that they protect. Cast out by their own volition. They are Legion, and yet, not Legion.

 

This is what I saw in your story and your idea. This is the story as I read it initially, before the muddling and the confusion.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This is what I saw in your story and your idea. This is the story as I read it initially, before the muddling and the confusion.

 

This. What Shinzaren has put the spotlight on is exactly what I mean in regards to your work DAT. Your core ideas are fantastic, what isn't great is how over the top you go with the unnecessary extras.

 

The thing is, I believe you can do it. If you were simply another Saxxon Dragoon I'd have (and I think others would have too) just given up and moved on. Just focus my friend, focus on the things in the IT that matter.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

'sighs' Alright. I'll try and fix this.

 

I geuss even a brick wall crumbles before a demolisher cannon. My words, not yours, don't elaborate.

 

You may ask yourself, why am I folding? Why am I not being my characteristic brickwally self? Well, partially because I can't convey what I was trying to say, although various people got bits of it - basicly, Primarchs a tool, Tryr, and by extension the Second Legion are humble, wrongly shamed astartes, judged not by their actions but by their appearance and their primarch. The tragedy is only beginning, though.

 

I'll try and reconvey that so that other people can understand it better :wall

 

This! This is the part that I saw glimpses of, lost in the sea of unnecessary things. This is the heart, the eternal idea that you need to build on. No wings; no lurid descriptions of confrontations between Primarchs. This.

 

1.) Tryr commands a Legion, a twisted Legion, but a Legion all the same.

2.) This Legion finds it's Liege. He is the twisted nature of their flesh, bound in life. He is everything wrong in them.

3.) The Legion faces it's Father's flaws. They hate and despise themselves for what he made them. They struggle, through battle and shame.

4.) The Progenitor is cast down, though the Corruption remains. There is no honor for them now, only exile. Only cleansing through death.

5.) They are Legion, lost forever, but granted the last honor of their choice. To secede themselves from all that they protect. Cast out by their own volition. They are Legion, and yet, not Legion.

 

This is what I saw in your story and your idea. This is the story as I read it initially, before the muddling and the confusion.

And it's basicly how it goes. Very basicly. I do what I can to make them appeal as powerful yet still make them disgusting, and make the Primarch as much of a tool as his legion is shamed and humbled. Thats what I want their tragedy to be - defined by something they are not and condemned for it. I have to walk that line, though, just like I did - and still do - for the Wraiths, and like usual my first attempt was a fail. Ah well. I know what not to do next time, but at least I know I'm on the right track, even if I'm walking like a crippled man - nothing against cripples, mind you, considering I'm writing about a Legion with similar problems :D

[Ace Debonair]

And it's basicly how it goes. Very basicly. I do what I can to make them appeal as powerful yet still make them disgusting, and make the Primarch as much of a tool as his legion is shamed and humbled. Thats what I want their tragedy to be - defined by something they are not and condemned for it. I have to walk that line, though, just like I did - and still do - for the Wraiths, and like usual my first attempt was a fail. Ah well. I know what not to do next time, but at least I know I'm on the right track, even if I'm walking like a crippled man - nothing against cripples, mind you, considering I'm writing about a Legion with similar problems ;)

 

Nobody gets it right on the first attempt, no matter how experienced the writer or the content of the IA. Or in this case, IL. :P

Hell, I didn't

 

Slap crazy wings and mutations on the primarch by all means - if the whole legion is mocked even though they don't look like their primarch, that's even better. :P

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

And it's basicly how it goes. Very basicly. I do what I can to make them appeal as powerful yet still make them disgusting, and make the Primarch as much of a tool as his legion is shamed and humbled. Thats what I want their tragedy to be - defined by something they are not and condemned for it. I have to walk that line, though, just like I did - and still do - for the Wraiths, and like usual my first attempt was a fail. Ah well. I know what not to do next time, but at least I know I'm on the right track, even if I'm walking like a crippled man - nothing against cripples, mind you, considering I'm writing about a Legion with similar problems ;)

 

Nobody gets it right on the first attempt, no matter how experienced the writer or the content of the IA. Or in this case, IL. :ph34r:

Hell, I didn't

 

Slap crazy wings and mutations on the primarch by all means - if the whole legion is mocked even though they don't look like their primarch, that's even better. :devil:

Even the Imperium draws the line at mocking astartes with absolutely no basis. Call them warrior priests, genefreaks, whatever, so long as it applies to all of them, but they draw the line at calling them something they have no basis for not calling them.

[Shinzaren]

Even the Imperium draws the line at mocking astartes with absolutely no basis. Call them warrior priests, genefreaks, whatever, so long as it applies to all of them, but they draw the line at calling them something they have no basis for not calling them.

 

Give them the rest of the hideous features, sans the wings. And they could easily be mocked for their Father's looks, attitude, and general tool-ness. Especially Pre-Heresy, when the other Primarchs would stand in stark testament to what your Primarch was not.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Even the Imperium draws the line at mocking astartes with absolutely no basis. Call them warrior priests, genefreaks, whatever, so long as it applies to all of them, but they draw the line at calling them something they have no basis for not calling them.

 

Give them the rest of the hideous features, sans the wings. And they could easily be mocked for their Father's looks, attitude, and general tool-ness. Especially Pre-Heresy, when the other Primarchs would stand in stark testament to what your Primarch was not.

Yeah, but that would make it a "bout time" instead of a tragedy.

[Shinzaren]

Why? The tragedy is not in the Primarch's death or corruption, that he brought on himself. The tragedy is that the marines, through no fault of their own, are being mocked, ridiculed, and generally considered pariahs. Yes, they are hideous and grotesque, with mutations that are considered an offense against the Emperor himself, but it's through no fault of their own. That is the tragedy.

 

And you forget that while the Imperium as a whole might be hesitant to mock Marines, their brothers probably wouldn't have such qualms. After all, if all marines are pretty much equal, they wouldn't feel any fear about mocking/hating/being disgusted with another marine, for whatever the reason.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Shinzaren

[Ace Debonair]

Slap crazy wings and mutations on the primarch by all means - if the whole legion is mocked even though they don't look like their primarch, that's even better. :P

Even the Imperium draws the line at mocking astartes with absolutely no basis. Call them warrior priests, genefreaks, whatever, so long as it applies to all of them, but they draw the line at calling them something they have no basis for not calling them.

 

Like... some of the brassier chapters calling the Raven Guard 'cowards' for using stealth instead of charging in boldly?

There's probably some other examples too.

 

Why? The tragedy is not in the Primarch's death or corruption, that he brought on himself. The tragedy is that the marines, through no fault of their own, are being mocked, ridiculed, and generally considered pariahs. Yes, they are hideous and grotesque, with mutations that are considered an offense against the Emperor himself, but it's through no fault of their own. That is the tragedy.

That's what I was driving at too, albeit in somewhat clumsier fashion. :tu:

[Shinzaren]

I'll be the scalpel to your hammer any day Ace :)

[Ace Debonair]

I'll be the scalpel to your hammer any day Ace ;)

 

This entitles me to start my next criticism with "STOP: Hammertime." :tu:

[Heru]

I'll be the scalpel to your hammer any day Ace ;)

:tu:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Heru, you reminded me... theres a color scheme in the making...

 

And we were both saying the same thing, just in different ways. I completely agreed with what you were saying, I just didn't understand it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@i1yqW_haLxK.hwfwR@@@@_@@_@.@@__@@@@___@@@@_@_@@@@_@@@@_@..@@@_@@@@@@@@@.iakk7&

 

The leg varies according to which of the Two DemiLegions that they belong to. To elaborate would be a spoiler :lol:

 

Although I'm not so sure if that's really... Sons of the Daemony. They seem darker. The Wraiths hold copyright on muted colors right now for me though.

[Ace Debonair]

STOP: Hammertime! ;)

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@i1yqW_haLxK.hwfwR@@@@_@@_@.@@__@@@@___@@@@_@_@@@@_@@@@_@..@@@_@@@@@@@@@.iakk7&

 

The leg varies according to which of the Two DemiLegions that they belong to. To elaborate would be a spoiler ;)

 

No, to elaborate would be to not keep us in the dark. :huh:

See, if we now start on why Demi-Legions on top of everything else is not a good idea, you can say "but you don't know what they really are", and you'd be right. But it's because we're not being told what they are.

Remember, you're not writing a novel with a shocking twist ending, you're telling us the facts about the second legion in IA format.

The novels can come later.

 

Oops, sorry. That was a bit rant-like. My apologies if that comes across as blunt or tactless. ^_^

 

Although I'm not so sure if that's really... Sons of the Daemony. They seem darker. The Wraiths hold copyright on muted colors right now for me though.

With a name like Sons of the Daemon I'd expect a rather darker red, maybe with the lighter one for trim. Blue doesn't fit the mental image I had for these guys at all, but since it's one of my favourite colours I'm hardly going to argue with you over it. :P