Codex > BRB or Specific > General?

[xxvaderxx]

Simple question, how do you rule on rules interactions.

 

1- Do Codexs always trump the BRB

 

or

 

2- Do more Specific rules always Trump more General rules, regardless of where they are written.

 

Example

 

WTN (wolves) Vs Walkers rules, for being hit by grenades.

 

Page 62, Wolftooth Necklace, replace the last

sentence with:

Against models with a WS value, a model with a

wolftooth necklace always hits in close combat on

the roll of a 3+.

 

If you lean towards 1, then you hit on 3+.

If you lean towards 2, then you hit on 6+.

 

Please vote and comment.

 

Cant find poll tools, are we allowed to poll here?.

[Legatus]

This is not so much an issue about which rule trumps, but more about adressing different circumstances.

 

The Wolf Tooth Necklace lets the wearer hit on 3+ instead of comparing weapon skills. So whenever you would usually look at the "To Hit Chart" on page 37 of the BRB, where the attacker's and defender's WS values are compared to give you the required die roll, a model with a WTN will hit on 3+ instead. That's why the WTN will not work on vehicles, for example, because you do not compare WS values when attacking a vehicle.

 

This is how Dreadnoughts and grenades are described (BRB, page 73):

 

"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6. However, if a walker is already stunned or immobalised at the start of the Assault phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS."

 

Compare that to the description of the WTN (Codex Space Wolves, page 62):

 

"In close combat, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits on the roll of 3+ regardless of comparative Weapon Skills."

 

 

So, WTN --> hit on 3+ whenever you would compare WS

 

Grenades on Dreads --> hit on 6s, and only when stunned/immobalised based on compare WS

[xxvaderxx]

This is not so much an issue about which rule trumps, but more about adressing different circumstances.

 

The Wolf Tooth Necklace lets the wearer hit on 3+ instead of comparing weapon skills. So whenever you would usually look at the "To Hit Chart" on page 37 of the BRB, where the attacker's and defender's WS values are compared to give you the required die roll, a model with a WTN will hit on 3+ instead. That's why the WTN will not work on vehicles, for example, because you do not compare WS values when attacking a vehicle.

 

This is how Dreadnoughts and grenades are described (BRB, page 73):

 

"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6. However, if a walker is already stunned or immobalised at the start of the Assault phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS."

 

Compare that to the description of the WTN (Codex Space Wolves, page 62):

 

"In close combat, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits on the roll of 3+ regardless of comparative Weapon Skills."

 

 

So, WTN --> hit on 3+ whenever you would compare WS

 

Grenades on Dreads --> hit on 6s, and only when stunned/immobalised based on compare WS

 

The way you work out the rules, has to remain the same regardless of which rules you are working with. Otherwise you are reading to suit your convenience.

 

That is not the rules for WTN. You are missing the errata.

 

Page 62, Wolftooth Necklace, replace the last

sentence with:

Against models with a WS value, a model with a

wolftooth necklace always hits in close combat on

the roll of a 3+.

[Legatus]

Both versions are trying to say the same thing. Both versions fail.

[xxvaderxx]

Both versions are trying to say the same thing. Both versions fail.

 

No they dont, errated version is pretty cut and dry, if the profile has WS then you hit on 3+. If you lean towards them hitting on 6+ that is ok, than means you lean towards S > G.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, its not a failure- its pretty cut and dry. Walkers have a WS, and thus are hit on a 3+.

 

But yes, codex always trumps BRB, wich can on occasion lead to some interesting circumstances.

[SeattleDV8]

But yes, codex always trumps BRB, wich can on occasion lead to some interesting circumstances.

 

Errr no, the codex does not always over-rule the BRB.

For an example of where the codex does not trump BRB just look at sweeping advance vs. Necron's WWB.

Now in general the codex will overrule the BRB, it that the codex is more specific than the main rules.

Also if the BRB has the same rule or item as the codex , the codex has precedence (BRB pg 74 {USR's} , pg. 62 {smoke launchers})

BUT! just because something is in the codex it does not automatically trump the BRB.

Granted most rules in the codex are more specfic or more detailed in regard to the general rules and as such 'trump' the BRB rules.

This in no way always works.

A codex rule must show where it is a more specific take on a general rule to over-rule it.

[Grey Mage]

There just has to be a conflict between the two. A direct conflict. In the case of WBB vs. Sweeping Advance, WBB does not 'specify' that it works vs WBB, so it doesnt.

[Frosty the Pyro]

But yes, codex always trumps BRB, wich can on occasion lead to some interesting circumstances.

 

Errr no, the codex does not always over-rule the BRB.

For an example of where the codex does not trump BRB just look at sweeping advance vs. Necron's WWB.

Now in general the codex will overrule the BRB, it that the codex is more specific than the main rules.

Also if the BRB has the same rule or item as the codex , the codex has precedence (BRB pg 74 {USR's} , pg. 62 {smoke launchers})

BUT! just because something is in the codex it does not automatically trump the BRB.

Granted most rules in the codex are more specfic or more detailed in regard to the general rules and as such 'trump' the BRB rules.

This in no way always works.

A codex rule must show where it is a more specific take on a general rule to over-rule it.

Nope dex always trumps BrB. WBB has no contentencies for sweeping advances thus does not trigger in a sweeping advance. Its similar to how the change from 4th to 5th removed outnumbering rules (which I still think is the supererior way to do no retreat), thus any wargear or special rules that were based on outnumber stoped working, this isnt because the dex sudenly stoped trumping BrB but because the fundimentals of the game changed in a way the dex simply doesnt cover.

 

The order of operations is

 

House rules>>dex errata>>dex>>BrB errata>>BrB>>Some guy on the internet.

[ArmouredWing]

The order of operations is

 

House rules>>dex errata>>dex>>BrB errata>>BrB>>Some guy on the internet.

Ah, that clears my position in the grand scheme of things. <_<

[xxvaderxx]

Interesting, so far it would seem 50-50 on which is the way to do it. Asked the same question in a local forum and got 80% in favor of C>B, asked the same question in daka daka and got 80% in favor of S>G.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Specific>general is not a 40k rule, search as much as you want you will not find it in a current 40k book. It is a DnD rule. 40k is dex> trumps brb. When the old guard dex mentioned that only the unit dedicated to a trasnport could embark in it, then thats how guard had to play, even when the new BrB said otherwise.

[SeattleDV8]

Specific>general is not a 40k rule, search as much as you want you will not find it in a current 40k book. It is a DnD rule. 40k is dex> trumps brb. When the old guard dex mentioned that only the unit dedicated to a trasnport could embark in it, then thats how guard had to play, even when the new BrB said otherwise.

 

BRB pg. 74 "...the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race.)"

[xxvaderxx]

So under C>B, do necrons get WBB if they are caught by a sweeping advance?. Keep in mind, unlike 4th, the BRB says nothing about negating WBB.

[SeattleDV8]

No, WBB does not work with Sweeping Advance.

1. Special rules must mention Sweeping Advance in order to trump it, for example ATSKNF from the SM codex.

2. WBB works on models, Sweeping Advance removes units.

3. WBB works on models that suffer casualties, Sweeping Advance removes the unit from play without causing casualties.