Killing Marines...with Marines.

[ShinyRhino]

Our local shop has become a bit of a hotbed of MEQ forces of late, including me. There are a few Orks, Tau, Eldar and IG, but the majority of players are fielding power-armored models. Basic Codex Marines, Blood Angels (the new flavor fo the month), Space Wolves (both with and without ThunderCav), and Chaos Marines are prevalent. I myself run a biker-centric Marine force, with a sprinkling of Dreads.

 

One thing I see a whole lot in these Marine on Marine fights is that everything boils down to massed armor saves. Unless someone's fielding something very wonky, the core of a fight boils down to a tactical Marine slobberknocker where whoever rolls the most power weapon or powerfist wounds wins. Massed bolter fire is an exercise in futility here.

 

So, how do Marines kill other Marines? I'm a big fan of playing the maneuver game, with lots of fast-moving units (bikes, Assault Marines, etc). Marines are so resilient to bolter-fire, that I often don't even kill a third of the enemy's models by the end of the game. I just try to cripple the transports and outmaneuver the infantry.

 

What sort of solutions are there for Marines to kill other power armored units these days? Our core units feel like they lack the overpowering volume of anti-MEQ fire needed to make a MEQ-vs-MEQ fight interesting and deadly. One heavy, and one specuial in a tactical squad can reliably murder two enemy Marines per turn, with the remaining volley of bolter fire being a total crapshoot.

 

The only unit I've found that really murders power armor is my 4x plasmagun Command Squad. It has the potential to take out a maximum of 8 MEQ models per turn. I've used it to great effect against Templar Crusader squads.

I've also got a double plasmagun biker squad I enjoy using. Kills a max of 4 bodies per turn. The T5 of a bike jsut exacerbates the power-armor tarpit slapfight of Marine-on-Marine action.

 

I do love my Relic Blade wielding captain for scything down Marines in close combat. 3s to hit, 2s to wound is a beautiful thing.

 

What else can we reliably do to take down large units of MEQ, especially in smaller games? I know this is a very basic, beginner question, but it's somehting I've been struggling with mightily of late. So many MEQ fights ending in draws in my recent games. How do you break the 3+ save fiesta of a Marine fight?

[KhorneHunter57x]

Well, there is the common Marine answer to a problem: Throw Vindicators at it (preferably not throw, but hey, it's a sturdy model).

 

The Land Raider Redeemer also works, but you have to get in close to use it and it might be a bit too expensive for your size of game. (though it is fun to roast Marines on an auto-hitting 2+ with no cover saves)

 

Other units that do the job well are Vanguard Veterans (even without upgrades, they have 4 attacks on the charge) and Honor Guard (again, 4 attacks each on the charge, plus inbuilt Power Weapons, Artificer Armor, and Bolters) but again, these have to get in close and the point cost for these units can skyrocket easily.

 

About how many points are you willing to dedicate to MEq killing? And do you want to rebuild your list around a new tactic, or do you just want an additional unit to help you deal with other Astartes?

[Xeonic]

The prevalence of MEQ on the field is why I prefer the PC/PG tactical squad, you krak a rhino open and drop 2-4 plasma templates on a squad in addition to plasma guns and whatever other firepower and it's basically gone, out of the game. Add in Nullzone and your humble tactical squads can now deal with any infantry threat on the board, including high toughness and feel no pain targets. :o

[ShinyRhino]

Well, there is the common Marine answer to a problem: Throw Vindicators at it (preferably not throw, but hey, it's a sturdy model).

 

The Land Raider Redeemer also works, but you have to get in close to use it and it might be a bit too expensive for your size of game. (though it is fun to roast Marines on an auto-hitting 2+ with no cover saves)

 

Other units that do the job well are Vanguard Veterans (even without upgrades, they have 4 attacks on the charge) and Honor Guard (again, 4 attacks each on the charge, plus inbuilt Power Weapons, Artificer Armor, and Bolters) but again, these have to get in close and the point cost for these units can skyrocket easily.

 

About how many points are you willing to dedicate to MEq killing? And do you want to rebuild your list around a new tactic, or do you just want an additional unit to help you deal with other Astartes?

 

It's probably not a good idea to throw my one Vindicator at anything...it's the old metal version. THUMP! :o

 

I had pondered adding a Land Raider to my forces, but am unsure how it would mesh with a largely speed-centered force, and as the only piece of large AV on the table. I could zoom around 12" per turn with it and fire out a weapon with PotMS, but that seems a lot of points for such a tactic. It would be a nice upgrade for mt Tactical Marines to roll around in, though. Rhino chassis are frustratingly easy to kill.

 

Honor Guard and Vanguard are really nice choices. Vanguard would fit nicely, and are like faster, less arm-strong Khorne Berzerkers when not piled full of power weapons.

 

I'd prefer not to rebuild my entire army strategy around MEQ troop killing. The "core" of my army is a biker captain (relic blade, arty armor, and sometimes hellfire rounds), and two 8-man biker squads. One has fist/double meltagun/melta attack bike, and the other is power weapon/double plasma/melta attack bike. Combat squaddable all around. As points increase, I add in a couple mechanized tac squads. After that, it's Dreads and Assault Squads in the mix.

 

It feels like if I want to kill MEQ bodies, I have to go for a small, super-elite force with lots of expensive upgrades. Rely on my expensive upgrades to work over multiple Marine models every turn, for some sort of steamroller effect.

[ShinyRhino]

The prevalence of MEQ on the field is why I prefer the PC/PG tactical squad, you krak a rhino open and drop 2-4 plasma templates on a squad in addition to plasma guns and whatever other firepower and it's basically gone, out of the game. Add in Nullzone and your humble tactical squads can now deal with any infantry threat on the board, including high toughness and feel no pain targets. :o

 

How well do these tactics carry over when facing any other race? While our local is heavy on MEQ, one early pairing against an Ork in a shop tourney might put the kibosh on my tournament day.

[Xeonic]

I'll preface by saying that I'm not a tournament player. However, plasma cannon are fantastic vs hordes on foot(at the very least they are forced to spread out, making them harder to find coversaves for and easier to shoot in general), and any kind of plasma weapon will tear through a trukk like it was made of tissue paper. The plasma gun is hardly optimal vs orks, but it's well worth firing anyways since it still wounds on a 2+(plus ignores FnP on deathstar nobs).

 

As I said though, I'm not a tournament player though, so my opinion may not matter in this instance. :o

[KhorneHunter57x]

I had pondered adding a Land Raider to my forces, but am unsure how it would mesh with a largely speed-centered force, and as the only piece of large AV on the table. I could zoom around 12" per turn with it and fire out a weapon with PotMS, but that seems a lot of points for such a tactic. It would be a nice upgrade for mt Tactical Marines to roll around in, though. Rhino chassis are frustratingly easy to kill.

 

*snip*

 

It feels like if I want to kill MEQ bodies, I have to go for a small, super-elite force with lots of expensive upgrades. Rely on my expensive upgrades to work over multiple Marine models every turn, for some sort of steamroller effect.

That's the nice thing about the Redeemer, as you can zoom around 12" blasting away with the Assault Cannon, and when you get close you can slow down and let loose with the Flamestorms. You don't lose any firepower by moving 12" when you are far away, and it can be a nice AV14 bunker for your Tacticals. Also, when fighting non-MEqs, the Redeemer is still pretty potent as it insta-immolates Eldar, roasts Tau and Orks, and is still a Land Raider hull, which can be tough to take down, and it will draw most of the anti-tank firepower away from your Bikes and Rhinos (so the shine on the Rhinos is not as easily tarnished :o ).

 

Also, for a somewhat cheap unit to consider as an anti-MEq unit, (following Xeonic's Plasma suggestion), may I suggest a 5-man Devastator Squad with a pair of Plasma Cannons? It is 140 points, can be parked inside cover or a Rhino for protection, and it has three 'bullet catchers' and it will make a dent in Marine forces.

[minigun762]

For a more mobile army my first thought is typhoons. No armor save and wounding on twos. Or frag them if they are really bunched up. The thunderfire is also good. Stack multiple wounds for fairly cheap using the S6 shells. Of course there are sternguard special ammo or ironclads dccw and their immunity to krak bombs.

[Warprat]

I'm using combi-flamer, flamer, plasma cannon, melta bombs in most of my Tac squads. Works great against Space Wolf deep striking/podding infantry units and popped transports. I usually combat squad them.

 

Also works well against Tau, who I also play against. With them, I usually run the squads full.

 

I also run a unit of 10 Tactical Termies, and find that thier storm bolters are usually able to shoot almost every turn, unlike my Tactical squads who usually only get a volley or two. That can really make a difference when multiplied across multiple turns. The 24" range allows them to add in thier fire where it counts the most.

 

Bolter fire is less than spectacular. But I find it helps to finish squads off, after they have been damaged by the templates, or to soften up the enemy a little before being assaulted. Even storm shielded Termies fail saves on a 1. Somtimes you just have to have weight of fire...

[DarkGuard]

I echo what's been said before about Vindicators and LRRs. If you can get the enemy clumped up, these can put the hurt on them. However, if they don't fit into your list, then don't worry too much.

 

Also, Sternguard. Vengeance Rounds scythe through power armour, and you can chuck them in a Rhino. Also, Hellfire can work wonders just through the sheer amount of saves you make your opponent make. My anti-infantry Sternguard squad normally does all right against Marines with their heavy flamers and bolters. Of course they are backed up by the Librarian. Seriously, very good against Marines with it's Vengeance ability, basically an AP3 heavy flamer.

 

Other than that, anything that can lump lots of wounds consistently on a squad, so things like dual flamer squads, plasma cannons, thunderfires. You are right that bolter fire can be underwhelming, but then it can be amazing if you combine a couple of squads. Of course, for your list it sounds like you won't fast things whizzing around, so maybe consider Land Speeders with equipment like MM/HF? Or maybe MM attack bikes.

 

For me, my favoured Tactical Squad is the plasma gun, multi-melta, always handy against MEQ, as at close range that's 3 Marines taken out. However, I tend to look past my troop choices for anti-MEQ. Seriously, you find most of it in the Elites and Heavy Support sections. However, if you are using bikers, that's pretty good. Dual plasma with a MM AB can reliably kill Marines.

[Jackelope King]

double post

[Jackelope King]

There are three things that Marines don't like. I didn't really come to realize them until I started playing Tau, but now it's all pretty obvious. Step back and think about it.

 

1. We don't like being wounded on a 2+. We pay a pretty decent premium in points and model count for that T4. We're not comfortable with the idea of being wounded on a 3+, let alone a 2+. We don't have enough models for even our mighty 3+ armor save to protect us when we're forced to make ten or more of them a turn. Think about how much we hate units like Lootaz, who dish out a bunch of wounds that, while we get saves against, we're still going to take casualties.

 

2. We don't like being kept at arm's length. Codex: Space Marines commands the midfield better than any other Codex in the game (Tau and IG have us thoroughly outclassed in the backfield, and Nids, Space Wolves and Blood Angels all play a more aggressive style of game.) However you slice it, Marines loathe to be out of range for melta and massed bolter fire. The bolter is a surprisingly good basic weapon: we absolutely fry light infantry with it (which are the troops for most other armies in the game). When we're in range to really see our bolters wreck face (in the 18" range band, 26" when we're mech'd up), we're also probably in range for special weapons, like Flamers and Melta. When we're outside of that range band, our Tactical Squads (and indeed, most of our firepower) isn't worth a darn thing. We're taking (sparse) casualties while not dishing many back on the enemy. And Marines lose battles of attrition. We're just too few in numbers. This is what ShinyRhino is thinking when he describes how he uses his Bikers, and indeed, how I use mine. I keep enemy Marines at arm's length. I can operate quite comfortably in the 36" range band. They don't like it much.

 

3. We don't like having our armor save ignored. We really don't like losing our fabled 3+ armor save. Power weapons, AP3 or better weapons, MCs... they drive us nuts. We're reduced to slinking through area terrain like a bunch of xeno scum to avoid those kinds of weapons.

 

So a perfect marine-killing weapon dishes out wounds easily, at long-range, with a low AP value. Plasma, right? Sure. But plasma and its ilk aren't worth the fifty quadrillion points it costs in most games against most other armies. So they're not the weapons of choice for an all-comers list. We can get cheaper firepower elsewhere that's also effective in the world of 5th Edition. Look to your list's firebase. Where are your autocannons? Krak missiles? Where are your 48"+ range weapons with a strength of 6+? You want to keep the nastiest part of Marine lists away from your lines. Kill the enemy's transports. If they haven't mech'd up, it should give you a lot of turns of shooting to whittle down the enemy's numbers. Then just let the law of averages take you. Autocannons and missile launchers are dirt cheap, and fairly readily available across multiple force org chart slots.

 

The other thing you need is proof against enemy super units, which luckily Marines have to fight other Marines. Land Raider problem? We have cheap, fast melta (which also keeps our threat profile high against other mechanized armies, like IG, Sisters, Tau and Chaos). Thunderhammer Terminator problem? We get the single best psychic power in the game with Null Zone (which also does wonders against Rock units in general, which depend on that Invulnerable save to stay alive). Still have a problem coming? Run away (Rhinos are awesome).

 

What we don't get access to are cost-effective measures like multi-power weapon units (other than our Assault Terminators), so doing our killing in melee is expensive. We also don't get access to cheap units that can spam low-AP weapons (Devs are pricey and static, and plasma command squads demand the additional investment of a Captain, a phantom 100+ point expenditure that other armies don't need to pay for, while not being able to reliably put holes in Mech like Fire Dragons can).

 

We've got the tools to kill other Marines. Most of them are even good against everyone else. You just need to look.

[Xeonic]

With respect, tac squad plasma cannon are only 5 pts. This makes them IMO an extremely competitive choice, and they can still threaten light armor fairly reliably.

My first two tactical squads nearly always get a plasma cannon first, then I look at other possible upgrades to give them. Plasma guns I take if I have the points lying around, because they mesh best with the cannon and the bolters of the rest of the squad.

 

Put another way, plasma cannon fit all the criteria you place forward for a weapon to threaten MEQ, they wound on a 2+, even plague marines, they ignore 3+ armor saves and feel no pain, they have good range, and for your 4th unstated, but obvious point, they don't cost a boatload of points. Seriously a plasma cannon makes it's points back if it kills a single infantry model more than the complimentary ML/MM. Risk/reward is also much better than a plasma gun because you can expect to hit more models for a single "gets-hot" roll.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

For a bike based build, i would look at two add on units for you.

1st is the Libby with Avenger and Vortex of doom, well redundant, the Vortex is for Anti armor, and the Flame template is for targets of choice (ie the model with the PF/PW) and the other unit would be the 5 man devastator squad with x2 Plasma cannons, pulling the old Park and Plug duty, if you can run a pair of these, that way you can still dump four small plates for all your MEQ freinds at your LGS. These Two unit would both retain the Air-ish nature of your build, while adding a heavy dose of MEQ killy-ness. i would also consider dropping the bike capt and his Plasma dragoons and run a pair of bike libbys as mentioned above.

[ShinyRhino]

All good points, everyone.

 

I do like the idea of plasma cannons on my tactical squads. My selection of heavy weapons is a tad limited right now. Four missile launchers, two multimeltas, and a lascannon. I have the PARTS to build several of every type, just not the time to model and paint these days. Thus, my careful selection of models and need for help :cuss It might take me a week and a half to paint a single infantry marine, so i have to choose carefully!

 

I really, really like the idea of finally adding a Land Raider to my force. Points-rich, but so very flexible. Tactical transport, firebase, Terminator bus, etc. I'm a big magnet fan on my vehicles, so when I buy the Crusader/Redeemer sprue, I'll end up magnetizing the guns to be swappable for Hurricanes, and Lascannons.

 

I am actually mid-process on painting a pair of Typhoons. One is complete, and the other is about half painted. I'd been thinking mainly of their application as Rhino hunters, but four kraks per turn into a squad of Marines can cause some carnage. Hmmmm.

 

When I field bikers, I almost ALWAYS take the Biker Captain. He's simply too much of a brick to leave out, especially since he alters my FOC so nicely. Adding a Librarian is in the cards, and will happen someday. Vortex on a bike is pretty tempting to ride alongside my meltabikers.

[Jackelope King]

With respect, tac squad plasma cannon are only 5 pts. This makes them IMO an extremely competitive choice, and they can still threaten light armor fairly reliably.

My first two tactical squads nearly always get a plasma cannon first, then I look at other possible upgrades to give them. Plasma guns I take if I have the points lying around, because they mesh best with the cannon and the bolters of the rest of the squad.

 

Put another way, plasma cannon fit all the criteria you place forward for a weapon to threaten MEQ, they wound on a 2+, even plague marines, they ignore 3+ armor saves and feel no pain, they have good range, and for your 4th unstated, but obvious point, they don't cost a boatload of points. Seriously a plasma cannon makes it's points back if it kills a single infantry model more than the complimentary ML/MM. Risk/reward is also much better than a plasma gun because you can expect to hit more models for a single "gets-hot" roll.

Plasma cannons seem to, and I used to be a HUGE fan. Not so anymore.

 

They meet all my qualifications for dealing with Marines on foot, absolutely. The problem? They absolutely fail when dealing with Mech. Reread page 60 of the BRB. On an average scatter roll, your plasma blast will be a whopping 3. *sad trombone* Plasma already has a major problem dealing with mech (lacking AP1 like Melta or being long-ranged like Autocannons or Missile Launchers).

 

I still think they're a pretty decent deal for Tactical Squads. They fail with Mech. Tactical Squads need to be able to deal with Mech if they're to hold objectives, so they can never be your first choice. They fit the criteria for dealing with Marines, but can't pull their weight against the elephant in the room: mech.

[minigun762]

I still think they're a pretty decent deal for Tactical Squads. They fail with Mech. Tactical Squads need to be able to deal with Mech if they're to hold objectives, so they can never be your first choice. They fit the criteria for dealing with Marines, but can't pull their weight against the elephant in the room: mech.

 

I think there are enough other options out there for Codex Marines to deal with Mech, Typhoons, Rifleman, Combi-Predators etc etc, that you can specialize some of your Tac Squads to be anti-infantry. If the worry is being tank shocked off an objective, a Meltagun/Meltabomb or Power Fist is also a viable option.

[Ming]

I've found a couple of ways to improve my lists and survive in this crazy marine-on-marine world. Depending on points, you can only employ some of these.

 

1. Force multipliers are a must. It helps all around, better to have an IC that increases everyone's value rather than just his own. Problem becomes keeping the force multiplier alive if that is needed. The best all around multipliers are those that improve combat results - a libby with null, for example. Improved results give you an edge.

 

2. All-around marine units need to handle the local marine metagame in some fashon, and still wack marines. Rhinos, meltaguns, ML/PC/MM, PW/PF, combiflamer type tac squads are for me. A troop biker list needs that kind of supremacy, from MG, relic blades, MM weapons in very unit, and keep the units large and played forward.

 

3. Until you clear 1500 pts, I'd probably stick with 2 combat-squadable troop choices. 3++ has been running a good series on this. The move on to the real marine killers.

 

4. As stated above by others, the best killers for marines are all the AP3 weapons marines can employ, in the most efficient and spammy ways possible. Choose your favorites and insert them. My favorite and soon duplicated, are sternguard with meltaguns and cmgs, power weapon or fist, rhino. Second favorite is demisternguard squads with double plasma cannons, or demidev squads with tri- or quad-MLs. I've grown to dislike Vindicators, just because I only have one. Two running together and going after the same target each turn might be very good though. Preds and flamestorming raiders, and typhoons are all awesome, especially in the current razorback spam BA lists we can see.

 

I've seen Shiny in action. He does well vs Marines, better than most. Our bigger problem is hordes, and don't get me started on hordes....

[chaplain belisarius]

i find vindicators work wonders, along with dreads, tacticals normally get rhinos with h/k, missile launchers and plasma guns...works well against most things...

[Xeonic]

I still think they're a pretty decent deal for Tactical Squads. They fail with Mech. Tactical Squads need to be able to deal with Mech if they're to hold objectives, so they can never be your first choice. They fit the criteria for dealing with Marines, but can't pull their weight against the elephant in the room: mech.

 

I think there are enough other options out there for Codex Marines to deal with Mech, Typhoons, Rifleman, Combi-Predators etc etc, that you can specialize some of your Tac Squads to be anti-infantry. If the worry is being tank shocked off an objective, a Meltagun/Meltabomb or Power Fist is also a viable option.

This is basically it, I bring enough counters to light AV/medium mech. lists without having every tac squad with a single multi-melta or missile launcher. If I'm being tanked shocked, well the squad probably has either a powerfist or meltabombs, though that's avoidable(and a multi-melta isn't?).

 

The plasma cannon is the single most effective anti-infantry mean portable weapon in out codex, I think, and it's not half bad at popping rhinos, speeders, or bikers either. It doesn't cost so much that you have to feel required to sit still all the time to use it and when you use it it can make big dents in squads no problem.

 

Of course there are games I've fluffed every scatter roll for my 'cannons, incinerated my own guys, one game I immobilized my own combi-pred with a max scatter shot. That's just the nature of blast weapons in general though. ;)

 

I'm not sure plasma cannons are at home in an all fast attack style list, but the typhoon(already mentioned of course) is another good anti-MEQ option that in general is cheapish, fast, and able to take out lightly armored transports and troops with ease. The very power of plasma cannon is why they're only available to a few, more static options such as sternguard, tacs, devs, and dreads, and the only bad platform for them is ironically our own heavy weapon squad, the devastators. Of course then Sammael has one on his Jetbike fired at BS5, but he's not really a Space Marine. ;) Bunch of heretical dress wearing girls, they are. ;)

[tahrikmili]

Your Plasma Cannon and Assault Cannon Dreadnoughts are your friends for this job, IMO..

[Grey Mage]

Indeed- two plasma heavy GH packs tend to be the core of my army, and theyve never had issues taking down other marines. Plasma is great- good on the light-medium armor most opponents throw at you, with enough shots to have some consistent luck on the damage tables, and great for killing marines, termies, and MCs that are everywhere in the game. Theres a reason its the most expensive weapon option- cause frankly, its the best.

[minigun762]

Indeed- two plasma heavy GH packs tend to be the core of my army, and theyve never had issues taking down other marines. Plasma is great- good on the light-medium armor most opponents throw at you, with enough shots to have some consistent luck on the damage tables, and great for killing marines, termies, and MCs that are everywhere in the game. Theres a reason its the most expensive weapon option- cause frankly, its the best.

 

Its nice to see other people who are still fans of Plasma and haven't gone completely over to Melta spam.

 

Melta is awesome but so is Plasma and even Flamers. I'm a strong believer that every special weapon has its niche, which is more then can be said about the heavy weapons.

[Koremu]

Indeed- two plasma heavy GH packs tend to be the core of my army, and theyve never had issues taking down other marines. Plasma is great- good on the light-medium armor most opponents throw at you, with enough shots to have some consistent luck on the damage tables, and great for killing marines, termies, and MCs that are everywhere in the game. Theres a reason its the most expensive weapon option- cause frankly, its the best.

 

Its nice to see other people who are still fans of Plasma and haven't gone completely over to Melta spam.

 

Melta is awesome but so is Plasma and even Flamers. I'm a strong believer that every special weapon has its niche, which is more then can be said about the heavy weapons.

3 * Plasma Pistol 2*LC Assault Squads are fearsome at tearing down Marines because of their low Risk factor and multitude of Armour-bypass techniques.

 

Also, anything with Rending is worrying to Power Armour of any sort - Assault Cannon Razorbacks can suddenly kill half a squad quite unexpectedly.

[Xeonic]

I do like assault cannons, but I always feel they're a gamble. I'm not actually good at dice games, so the only thing I use them on is my termies, where I can throw down two cannon's worth of dice, always makes me smile with glee as I get the rends for two cannon.

 

My like of plasma probably stems from my other army, very agressive melta spamming chaos marines, from whom I have grown to love dual melta and hate to use the single meltaguns in tac squads. The #1 thing my chaos marines hate to face is plasma, cannon or guns, as it can pop rhinos, wound oblits and princes relatively easily, and more importantly massacre my poor chaos marine squads easily. My chaos marine Oblits also apply their plasma cannons effectively, two at a time. :)

 

I've been wanting to try plasma spam assault marines along with a jumppack/plasma pistol chaplain and jump libby with nullzone and smite(moar AP2!). Expensive, but sounds interesting to play on the table and can threaten a wide variety of unit types.