So, we're all friends now?

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Why, oh why, did they remove the ancient enemies rules? Not only from the Codexes, but seemingly from the fluff as well. It used to be that Khorne and Slaanesh couldn't be on the same table together, now they have special rules specifically for fielding them together! Why would the powers that be decide to remove such an integral part of the Chaos mythos? Being at each others throats is kind of what keeps the Chaos Gods in check isn't it?

[Hyaenidae]

I will feast on your soul for such words!!! Better? :D Seriously, though, I couldn't agree with you more. Ah well, I'm still following the rules, lol.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

That's the spirit! :D

 

It just kind of makes me sad to see how many Chaos players abandoned the essence of our legions in favor of min/maxing.

[Hyaenidae]

I could understand a joint operation (or black crusade) for the purpose of destroying a strong foe, but afterwards, everybody better be trying to slit each others' throats afterwards. Period.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I'd be leaning more towards the Black Crusade side of things. I can't see them setting aside millenia of hatred to go rough up some random Tau outpost though!

[Hyaenidae]

If the Tau had accidentally excavated an old titan, though? Yes. Then, the throat slitting...

[David the Despoiler]

I think the whole point of the 4th ed Codex is to represent that the time for the Chaos Marines ultimate push into the Imperium is at hand and that is why there is a lack of restriction on unit selection. It is said that once the Legions set aside their differences and Abaddon truly unites them all, then the Imperium will be shattered. Perhaps that time has come and that is why we can field any insane number of combination?

[Chengar Qordath]

Really, its simply a matter of options and trying to reflect the impressive diversity of Chaos armies. Most Chaos armies are fairly small warbands under the control of individual warlords; Lords X, Y, and Z might all have been from the same legion ten thousand years ago, but that doesn't mean they will run their warbands in the same way. Some warbands (most famously Black Legion ones) have leaders who, through a combination of threats and force of personality, can make Marines work together even if they hate each other. Khorne-woshippers and Slaanesh-followers might hate each other, but a decent Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince will tell them to "work together or I'll kill you both" and they'll listen. Even cult troops usually have enough self-preservation instincts to not commit suicide by picking a fight with their commander (especially if its a DP). As long as the Chaos Lord can keep his warband winning battles and bringing in loot/pleasing the Dark Gods, odds are religious differences will be somewhat muted.

 

There's also the common enemy angle; especially in the context of tabletop, Chaos will align with other Chaos forces to kill their enemies. I would not be surprised if there have been occasions where two Chaos warbands were in the middle of fighting each other when an Imperial force showed up, and the Chaos forces agreed to a temporary truce until the Imperials were dead, and then immediately went back to killing each other once the battle was done. Despite the constant infighting, Chaos can and will pull together when faced with a common foe, although immediately afterward they're likely to go back to killing each other.

[Khan of the North]

Well the Chaos codex is very unpopular, every chaos player I knew either changed armies or quit. I would bet when GW gives you guys a new codex a lot of the lost fluff and rules will return.

[the jeske]

Most Chaos armies are fairly small warbands under the control of individual warlords; Lords X, Y, and Z might all have been from the same legion ten thousand years ago, but that doesn't mean they will run their warbands in the same way. Some warbands (most famously Black Legion ones) have leaders who, through a combination of threats and force of personality, can make Marines work together even if they hate each other

well thing is not all legions are or rather were BL and not every player used to play a BL khorn build. But considering the limited fluff we got in the new dex and the stuff we get in the demon dex . yep we are a happy family now.

There's also the common enemy angle; especially in the context of tabletop, Chaos will align with other Chaos forces to kill their enemies.

yep , but at what level of battle . A warband/company etc enlisting a IW siege company or at least its artilary makes sense . A chaos lord enlisting a band of world eaters to beat his opponent[just like in that story about Khârn] , fluffy and makes sense. Only all those are at Apo size battles . At man vs man lvl the csm dont trust the guy standing next to him . For a PM someone worshiping a something else then nurgle is as alien and hostile as a xeno is for a loyalist.

that is the real problem with the new dex. no one has problems with the fact that BL guys can make nice lists [in fact if the BL list would suck to the codex would be realy weak] , the problem is that everything else feels like a sub par version of a BL list or is much much weaker then a BL list.

I can technicly play 6 man csm units with IoS 6 man termis 6 man NM units, but that set up sucks . It makes a bad list and aside for the fact that I play with something that was fluffy [nothing about sacred numbers in the new fluff] in the old dex , I get nothing for it. Or at least nothing that can be compared with playing 2 DPs 2 zerkers 2 pms and oblits mix and still being 100% fluffy.

[Skirax]

I hate the idea of mixing any other Legion with my Word Bearers. Pure Word Bearer force, no Khorne or any other god. Seriously, I can't see the huge attraction about Khorne Berzerkers. I mean, yeah, they're epic in CC, but my Grey Hunters have outdone a unit of 15 of those before.

[Chengar Qordath]

well thing is not all legions are or rather were BL and not every player used to play a BL khorn build. But considering the limited fluff we got in the new dex and the stuff we get in the demon dex . yep we are a happy family now.

Of course, it does bear mentioning that for the most part the Legions are really just dozens of different warbands that happen to share a common origin. Given the nature of Chaos, not all warbands are going to be the same. Night Lords are a good example of this; you've got some warbands that only use Chaos in a very limited fashion as a tool and retain a fair amount of pre-Heresy structure, and others that have essentially become Chaos-worshiping loonies who want nothing more than to inflict terror in the Imperium for their own twisted pleasure. The idea that certain legions have absolutely fixed and immutable playstyles just doesn't match the fluff; warbands from the same legion can have an impressive degree of diversity.

 

yep , but at what level of battle . A warband/company etc enlisting a IW siege company or at least its artilary makes sense . A chaos lord enlisting a band of world eaters to beat his opponent[just like in that story about Khârn] , fluffy and makes sense. Only all those are at Apo size battles . At man vs man lvl the csm dont trust the guy standing next to him . For a PM someone worshiping a something else then nurgle is as alien and hostile as a xeno is for a loyalist.

that is the real problem with the new dex. no one has problems with the fact that BL guys can make nice lists [in fact if the BL list would suck to the codex would be realy weak] , the problem is that everything else feels like a sub par version of a BL list or is much much weaker then a BL list.

I can technicly play 6 man csm units with IoS 6 man termis 6 man NM units, but that set up sucks . It makes a bad list and aside for the fact that I play with something that was fluffy [nothing about sacred numbers in the new fluff] in the old dex , I get nothing for it. Or at least nothing that can be compared with playing 2 DPs 2 zerkers 2 pms and oblits mix and still being 100% fluffy.

Now that, I agree with. Mono-God and cult lists should be boosted up to make them reasonably viable and competitive, and the Codex could use a bit more flavor with things like sacred numbers. While you can certainly fluff-justify mixed forces, there should be more done to make non-mixed forces an interesting and fun choice. Giving undivided more of a boost would also be nice; right now, undivided comes across as really bland.

 

A rule to reflect the difficulty of holding a mixed force together would also be nice.

[Lay]

The current book has the least amount of options of any Chaos Codex. There's just no room for any restrictions.

 

As for Chaos Marines fighting together, I prefer the approach of Forge World's Siege of Vraks trilogy. It features several World Eaters and Death Guard warbands as well as Undivided warbands from the Black Legion, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors who share the battlefield for several years. At no point does it devolve into a mishmash with Nurgle sorcerers leading Berzerkers or something like that. Rather than going for the cheap mercenary route, the warbands display the traits of their Legions.

 

Of course, it does bear mentioning that for the most part the Legions are really just dozens of different warbands that happen to share a common origin.

They share much more than their origin. The notion that each Legion has it's own unique character and method of fighting was stated even back in 2nd edition.

[trolly]

haha, that why i like to call this codex as black legion codex or renegade codex rather than legion or true chaos dex.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Yeah, not so much a fan of it either. I don't think mixed Mark armies should be out and out restricted but I think there should be disadvantages to counter the advantages. And advantages given to pure armies as well. I address this in my DIY Codex in my sig links.

 

My ideas were many as you will see if you check it out but specifically on Legions and Cults I had the following concepts worked out:

 

1) An army cannot have scoring Marked units of a Mark other than Chaos Glory unless an HQ is chosen of that Mark or that of Chaos Glory.

 

2) Add in special effects Khornate HQs can create on the field of battle to counterbalance lack of psychic powers.

 

3) Extend Khârn's Betrayer rule to ranged combat and to units with opposing Marks.

 

4) Paths of Glory (Chapter Tactics that act as upgrades to line characters) that will give you certain bonuses, including a Path of the Cult, which gives you bonuses for sticking to one Mark.

 

Ergo there are disadvantages to mixing Marks (Betrayer, scoring units), and advantages to pure armies (Cult bonuses). There are ways around the disadvantages built into the list, like the Dreaded Title (Sagas): Everchosen that will allow you to mitigate Betrayals at range. But all in all I think the work encourages pure armies without restricting anyone's creative vision and/or WAACko mentalities.

 

If you want to check out the most up to date work, it's here on Warseer.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the whole point of the 4th ed Codex is to represent that the time for the Chaos Marines ultimate push into the Imperium is at hand and that is why there is a lack of restriction on unit selection. It is said that once the Legions set aside their differences and Abaddon truly unites them all, then the Imperium will be shattered. Perhaps that time has come and that is why we can field any insane number of combination?

 

Not very Chaos though is it?

 

There should be rules that if you Chaos Lord doesn't have the great reuniter special rule, then the opposing powers should be suffering some sort of amniosty rule...

[the jeske]

as much as I would like to agree with your captin , but not even demons have that rule.

[Skirax]

I reckon Chaos should have an Animosity rule similar to Fantasy Orcs.

[Captain Idaho]

as much as I would like to agree with your captin , but not even demons have that rule.

 

They should get it even more!

 

Chaos needs an over haul, no doubt about it!

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I think they used to have something like that, but I'm pretty sure it was in Fantasy. Sort of like "Units of opposing marks can't be deployed within 24" of each other." and "If a unit is within 12" of a unit with an opposing mark then they take a test, on a 1 they must declare a charge or ranged attack on that unit."

 

Something like that, I think. I might have it confused with something else or even a different game system. It's been a long time since I played Chaos in Fantasy. :pirate:

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It's because this isn't Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It's Codex: Black Legion

[maverike_prime]

It's because this isn't Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It's Codex: Black Legion

 

Well I think a better way to put it would be to say it's Codex: Renegades, and Non-legions but including Black Legion. That is my single biggest grip with the current Chaos Space Marine Codex. You can't make legion speccific armies any more. I mean sure I can take 2 Vindicators and a trio of Oblits and slap some Boltgun metal paint on 'em and call 'em Iron warriors. Or I could toss 'em in Regal Blue, paint some lightning bolts on 'em and call 'em Night Lords. You can't even really build Cult Marine armies either. I mean yeah, I can take 6 units of Berzerkers and have them lead by a Lord with Mark of Khorne... but it's not really a World Eaters army then. I mean if he's a lord of a fragging army of Zerkies, shouldn't he be an Ubber-zerk? I mean shouldn't the Chaos lord be the dude that when you put him on the table your opponent goes "OH CRAP! That's my prime target!" ? I mean when did all Chaos Marines become common renegades?

 

Personally, I think what they need to do is sub-divide the next codex and give us 2 categories of units. Category 1: Ancient Warrior. These are the marines that have been fighting for 5,000+ years. The ones that have suffered decades of hatred and have learned from it. Figure Leadership 10 with the ability to take Veteran skills but have the selections be limited by the Lord of the army.

Category 2: Renegades. These are the Space Wolves who got pissed off at Ragnar, and the Ultramarines who feel they're faith has been over looked. The Marines who are tired of giving and giving and giving and giving and never getting so much as a pat on the back for their efforts. The one who have set out to create their own empire. I figure these guys would be fine with the states for CSMs in the current codex as is.

 

The Category split would also apply to the Lords, but have an even greater effect on them. Mind you I'm just kinda tossing this off the top of my head right now. But Lets say you take an Ancient Warrior Lord and give him the Mark of Khorne. Yes he gets +1 to his attacks, but he also gets prefeered enemy and the cost of mark non-marked troops with the mark of Khorne is reduced by 50%. But if you pick an ancient Warrior lord and don't mark him, he can choose Veteran skills and reduces the cost of Ancient Warrior Chaos Marines by 5 points, making them 2 points cheaper them non-ancient warrior Marines before Veteran skills are selected.

 

See what I mean? By making the Lord's selection affect the rest of the army you can build the list so that it makes certain combinations more appealing then others. That way you can still have a diverse list (Slaneesh Berzerkers? Khorne Sorcerers?), but reward players you play fluffy.

 

Thoughts on that idea?

[Captain Tezdal]

Why do people post threads like this a new topic, fairly sure most are aware for some, the codex dosn't work for you. Personally I craft my army to a theme, and don't gw to write special rules for me to make said theme.

[maverike_prime]

Why do people post threads like this a new topic, fairly sure most are aware for some, the codex dosn't work for you. Personally I craft my army to a theme, and don't gw to write special rules for me to make said theme.

 

I understand your point Tez. Allow me to make a return. At least in my case, it's not so much that I want to whine about the codex not working for me, it's that the prior version did work for me and now I can't do the same thing, or even make a semblance of the same thing, with the current codex. It's kinda like if in the 6th edition Space Marine Codex, Lysander stopped having any effect on the army. You can still play Imperial fists. They're going to play exactly like any other Space Marine army that doesn't take Calgar, Sicarius, Vulkan, Shrike, or Kantor, but you can play them. Just paint your Ultramarines yellow. I posted this in another thread:

 

Space Marine players get:

1. Ultramarines
   
2. Crimson Fists
   
3. Imperial Fists
   
4. Salamanders
   
5. White Scars
   
6. Raven Guard
   
7. Space Wolves
   
8. Blood Angles
   
9. Black Templars
   

 

Chaos Space Marine Players get:

1. Chaos Renegades
   
2. ... um... Chaos Renegades with different colored armor... kinda.
   

 

Am I asking for multiple codecies, one to represent each of the original 9 traitor legions plus 1 to represent the Renagade Space marines? No. but I would like an Iron Warriors Army to play differently to a Word Bearers Army to a Renegade army.

[lord gunthar]

You forgot dark angels maverike, but thats not a real codex anyway.