Blood Champion

[Erasmus of Baal]

Okay, so it's pretty clear that we can't equip the Sanguinary Novitiate with anything. I'm not happy with that, but it's not the point here. This precedenet of terminology leads to us not being able to equip the Blood Champion with anything; got it, OK, yeah.

 

My question is, can I give him other stuff and THEN make him the Blood Champion? I recall an argument that the Furioso Librarian is a precedent that this is wholly unallowed by some order-of-wargear rule. If this is true, then we can't, but this is a case of addition, not replacement.

 

TL;DR: Can I give an Honor Guard a Storm Bolter and THEN make him a Blood Champion?

[fivepointedstar]

I have that same issue with codex: BA EoB!

 

my thoughts are the WHOLE unit is and always will be a Honor Guard, those few ( and proud) HG marines then were elected to ie. upgrade to BC ( which is a honored honor to a honor guard..see what i mean). then one other yells out i'm pretty :D 'n good at patching up fella's can i be a apprentice apothicary, " oh please, oh please". Hence the other HG model being a noviate. IF i remember correctly and im not that old yet.. blood angel in there last edition codex had a full load out with there honor guards taking all sorts of upgrades, like techmarine, and apothicary, and standard bearer, vet sqt etc etc.. Now the rule for the best of the best have changed.. what, when.. and of all why! The HG are suppose to have the best equipment there is. They are the body guards of the big cheese. They are the bees knees in the blood angels eyes.

 

So if there are one unit of 5 HG, four hg's (labeled models) and one noviate (labeled ) model wouldn't rule of thumb say as a majority of "labeled models then there are more HG's thana noviate so the whole unit would then be all HG's and HG certified to then take there fair share of goodies to the Shin' dig. Same thing applies to a Blood champ he has be dudded the champ of the squad cause he's pretty sweet with a sword... he's still a HG, but now rocks a power sword, and shield and doesn't like other leaders...sounds like a emperor's champ to me. there fore the one HG that had a head ache and woke up before the fight anf was like i really was smash that enemies leader. was the made into a ( one part HG, second part Blood Champ). just like i was told in school.. it not what you wear it what inside that counts.

 

If i say add what you will there you mini's and he's still just a HG.

[dekyr]

companies like games-workshop need to just ask the question for everyone. wizards of the coast does the same thing. answer the question everyone is asking, stop the confusion and the headaches. While others may not, I agree with Deathknight. If the model is in the squad then it deserves the gear in the list. a priest in the elites section is allowed the same gear upgrades. why shouldn't the novitiate. same goes for the champion. he's no differrent than a vanguard vet. more expensive actually if you want to upgrade him which he shold be as he the best of the best before hq and named characters.

 

Just my thoughts

[Dingareth]

Does he have the same profile as an Honor Guard? No.

 

There's your answer.

 

Also, GW ruled against the Libby Dread taking upgrades for some insane reason, so it only goes to reason that they'd follow precedence on this.

[Spagunk]

you know, he kinda has a point. Though I have no idea why you would give him a storm bolter but the entry only says that you can upgrade him to blood champion with gives him a power weapon and combat shield. Nothing in there says anything about exchanging his loadout for the PW/CS.

 

If anything, it is worth considering the possibility that the blood champion doesn't loose his previous equipment.

[Captain Idaho]

This comes up all the time. If he has a separate profile, he is a separate choice and not eligible for the options of Honour Guard. If you want clarity on the issue, look at the Sternguard entry:

 

It clearly differentiates between any model having a combi-weapon or Storm Bolter, and any Veteran a special or heavy weapon.

 

Why would it be different for a unit of Honour Guard? The whole list is built that way. Look at Tactical squads and their separation between Space Marines and the Sergeant or Vanguard even.

[fivepointedstar]

Does he have the same profile as an Honor Guard? No.

 

There's your answer.

 

Also, GW ruled against the Libby Dread taking upgrades for some insane reason, so it only goes to reason that they'd follow precedence on this.

So what if he doesnt have the same profile. Of course he's different but majority rules in the unit. look up majority ruling via the rulebook. he's a upgrade to.. so he is 1st a HG, and always a HG but serves as a champion to the squad. Just like Dekyr stated the clear obvoius that also a noviate is a Sang Priest apprentice ( his not to keen about the whole blood thing.. must be his stomach acting up) but he's a part of the unit as a HG.

 

Think about a real life squad in the military. a medic, is a marine with medical training. a sniper is a better shooter but you don't go calling him anything different than what he is.. a marine with a good shot. same applies to warhammer 40k the unit name is Honor Guard the points cost is... the unit is comprised of four Honor guards, and one Noviate. so for simple methods the unit name you enter into for points calulations is : Honor Guard. Not, a "unit that if known as one Blood Champian, 3 HG's, and one Noviate". They are all five Honor Guard hence the unit cost, and title.

[fivepointedstar]

This comes up all the time. If he has a separate profile, he is a separate choice and not eligible for the options of Honour Guard. If you want clarity on the issue, look at the Sternguard entry:

 

It clearly differentiates between any model having a combi-weapon or Storm Bolter, and any Veteran a special or heavy weapon.

 

Why would it be different for a unit of Honour Guard? The whole list is built that way. Look at Tactical squads and their separation between Space Marines and the Sergeant or Vanguard even.

Sgt's of course get different stats there leadership runs the squad. but in a honor guard squad the goal is to protect there leader. Also sgt don't have the rank in a army to get honor guard equipment there almost like a LT or something simular under a Capt. but higher than a Sgt. Thus the term Honor Guard.

[Captain Idaho]

So can a Sergeant have a missile launcher in a Tactical Marine squad? Why is there clear differences between a Veteran and the Sergeant in Sternguard units?

 

The majority rules in the rule book has nothing to do with unit selection and army list building, it's to do with what toughness value to use, unless you are bringing up something I've missed (possible).

[fivepointedstar]

Also, GW ruled against the Libby Dread taking upgrades for some insane reason, so it only goes to reason that they'd follow precedence on this.

Off topic but in the option to get a Libby dread it clearly says blood fist, force weapon, storm bolter, and smoke launchers. so that means no frag cannon, or blood claws.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm, simultaneous posting!

 

The fluff behind the unit has no bearing on the unit's rules and use on the table top.

 

Can you give a Scout Sergeant a missile launcher to take advantage of his superior BS? No, because he is not a Scout, but a Scout Sergeant.

[Erasmus of Baal]

The problem, Captain Idaho, is not one of whether or not I can equip theBlood Champion with a Storm Bolter. That is a hearty and obvious "no." The problem is, if I give this particular HONOR GUARD a Storm Bolter and THEN upgrade him to a Blood Champion, is it allowed?

[Spagunk]

This comes up all the time. If he has a separate profile, he is a separate choice and not eligible for the options of Honour Guard. If you want clarity on the issue, look at the Sternguard entry:

 

It clearly differentiates between any model having a combi-weapon or Storm Bolter, and any Veteran a special or heavy weapon.

 

Why would it be different for a unit of Honour Guard? The whole list is built that way. Look at Tactical squads and their separation between Space Marines and the Sergeant or Vanguard even.

 

But the question is whether you can have gear before the model is upgraded. In other words, you have a normal veteran and for 20 pts he gets an additional WS, a PW and Combat shield.

 

In this regard the honour guard IS different than any other entry in that it actually leaves some ambiguity. The squad contains 4 honour guard members and a novitate. You kit out you squad then say "well for 20 pts I will upgrade squad member Zubero to a blood champion. The entry says "congrats, he gets a pw and combat shield. Also, he now has an update profile due to the upgrade" where as the novitate is clearly stated as being himself. In this case, the honour guard is different from any other squad specifically because of the upgrade status for the member in question AND the fact that upgrading to blood champion does not remove any items the honour guard member had prior to being upgraded.

 

Besides, I did not advocate saying that this is the definition of the rule, just that it garners thought debate. People are allowed to debate these things are they not?

[fivepointedstar]

i still think all honor guard can be kitted anyway avalible. as the unit is a honor guard. so in my eyes, and logic. the HG can be issued any thing that is listed in legal terms. ( no multiple weapon swapping on one model) Ie. if i wanted to have a Honor Guard and upgrade to a BC, then give him a lightning claw, and inferno pistol i pay for the points, and model him in that order. Other may disagree with but that how i see it, and i play fair.

 

To make clear an issue Honor Guards are the top elite units in a force higher in status than a veteran. Out of a unit of veterans these few were chosen to be exempler to there brethren in fighting for the HQ. hence the skills and ability. Second sgt are elected singles in a army to lead because of there authority to teach thru example. Sgt's that over excell are then made veterans, and then Honor Guards, and those that live out the leader are then elected thru combat or vote to elevate to captian's or higher.

 

So you can read the codex as is. Or interpret it in logical sence.

 

EofB.. equip the storm bolter and anything else its a unit option.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As long as you and your opponents all agree it's all good.

 

0b :)

[Spagunk]

As long as you and your opponents all agree it's all good.

 

0b :D

 

At the end of the day, this is all that matters really. Tournaments can sometimes allow it with ambiguous rules but ask first rather than assume.

[Brother Theophantus]

I used to think the gear would be a no-no but having checked over the rules since you mentioned it actually I think it would be ok.

 

In the Furioso entry it specify's that all previous gear is exchanged for the new loadout but the Blood Champion entry merely states that he comes with a power weapon and combat shield. Logically if the new gear replaced the old he would only have a power weapon and combat shield with no grenades, bolt weapon or even power armour.

 

However since the stats still included a 3+ save and the combat shield is modeled with a bolt pistol then its clear he retains the gear he previously had. Ergo if you give him a storm bolter before upgrading him he keeps it.

[Captain Idaho]

It's fine if you have regular opponents, but if you come into a store with your Blood Champion with Storm Bolter and Thunder Hammer and combat shield and power weapon and come up to a guy who says "actually no, I don't agree" then you have to change your list or not play the guy etc.

 

It's the same as 4th edition where you could upgrade your Sergeants. People went on about this very same thing, but to be honest, it's just looking for a loop hole. GW eventually released FAQs that confirmed Sergeants could not be upgraded from a trooper with a special weapon.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't accept it until I see a FAQ that says you can, and even then that would be a poor decision as it contradicts previous rulings :D Would be typical of GW mind.

 

Would you really think a Chaos Marine player can have a a heavy weapon trooper with Aspiring Champion upgrade and a power fist? Can that Raptor Champion have a melta gun under that logic? Can an Ork boy take a rokkit launcher then be upgraded to an Ork Nob?

[Dingareth]

Would you really think a Chaos Marine player can have a a heavy weapon trooper with Aspiring Champion upgrade and a power fist? Can that Raptor Champion have a melta gun under that logic? Can an Ork boy take a rokkit launcher then be upgraded to an Ork Nob?

 

This a thousand times over, explains everything right here. Again, just as a Libby Dread can't have a Frag Cannon, a Blood Champion can't have any options to an Honor Guard.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Would you really think a Chaos Marine player can have a a heavy weapon trooper with Aspiring Champion upgrade and a power fist? Can that Raptor Champion have a melta gun under that logic? Can an Ork boy take a rokkit launcher then be upgraded to an Ork Nob?

 

Incidentally, yes. I don't see any reason why the guy in charge (especially in those societies) shouldn't be able to have these options as well as the lesser guys under his command.

 

Again, just as a Libby Dread can't have a Frag Cannon

 

This is guaranteed by the fact that it says "replace all other wargear," not specifying the order in which wargear was taken. The Blood Champion takes additional wargear, and that's where the controversy springs up. It is, ultimately, less a question of terminology than a question of whether or not the order in which the wargear is listed is important.

[Grimtooth]

Does he have the same profile as an Honor Guard? No.

 

There's your answer.

 

Also, GW ruled against the Libby Dread taking upgrades for some insane reason, so it only goes to reason that they'd follow precedence on this.

So what if he doesnt have the same profile. Of course he's different but majority rules in the unit. look up majority ruling via the rulebook. he's a upgrade to.. so he is 1st a HG, and always a HG but serves as a champion to the squad. Just like Dekyr stated the clear obvoius that also a noviate is a Sang Priest apprentice ( his not to keen about the whole blood thing.. must be his stomach acting up) but he's a part of the unit as a HG.

 

Think about a real life squad in the military. a medic, is a marine with medical training. a sniper is a better shooter but you don't go calling him anything different than what he is.. a marine with a good shot. same applies to warhammer 40k the unit name is Honor Guard the points cost is... the unit is comprised of four Honor guards, and one Noviate. so for simple methods the unit name you enter into for points calulations is : Honor Guard. Not, a "unit that if known as one Blood Champian, 3 HG's, and one Noviate". They are all five Honor Guard hence the unit cost, and title.

 

Actually you are completely wrong. A medic in the Marine Corps is not a Marine at all. He is a Navy corpseman and has none of the weapon training that the Marine infantry possess. And while a Scout Sniper is a Marine, his weapon/equipment loadout and training doctrine is completely different from Marine infantry.

 

Fail comparison is fail.

[Knyx]

Also, GW ruled against the Libby Dread taking upgrades for some insane reason, so it only goes to reason that they'd follow precedence on this.

Off topic but in the option to get a Libby dread it clearly says blood fist, force weapon, storm bolter, and smoke launchers. so that means no frag cannon, or blood claws.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this.

 

It states very clearly in the FAQ that Libby Dreads can take no additional war-gear options. They get what they start out with. Not just no frag cannon and blood claws. No anything besides the four things you listed. No extra armor, no Mag Grapple, no anything that is in the Wargear section.

 

 

Similarly, I still fail to the see the problem people have with HQ/Nov/BloodChamp this because its actually very straight forward. They are not the same things regardless of being in the same unit. Honor guard can take what they can take. Novitiate do not have the option to buy gear. Blood Champions do not have the option to buy gear.

 

Games Workshop has not addressed this "problem" because its so painfully clear already. They are not listed as being able to buy options. So they can't.

 

This is the same question you are asking possibly on a more strait-forward unit: the Tactical Squad.

Space Marines may buy Meltaguns.

The Sarge cannot buy a Meltagun, regardless of the fact that he is also a (noun) "Space Marine". His model type is Sergeant. Not Space Marine.

[Captain Idaho]

Again, just as a Libby Dread can't have a Frag Cannon

 

This is guaranteed by the fact that it says "replace all other wargear," not specifying the order in which wargear was taken. The Blood Champion takes additional wargear, and that's where the controversy springs up. It is, ultimately, less a question of terminology than a question of whether or not the order in which the wargear is listed is important.

 

Strange, but I didn't say anything about a Frag Cannon?! Where did you get that quote from?

 

Just to clarify, I'm a fairly easy going player and would probably accept a player who had a beautifully modelled miniature and wanted to use him as a one off, but I really prefer to play by the rules because I modelled my own army along those rules.

 

It's our own hobby after all, but when you play other players, it becomes a shared experience and there needs to be consistancy or else it hampers the enjoyment (potentially).

 

Incidentally, yes. I don't see any reason why the guy in charge (especially in those societies) shouldn't be able to have these options as well as the lesser guys under his command.

 

Well I see no problem in the fluff, but the fluff and the game are 2 separate facts that we must separate from each other. It does seem logical that a Blood Champion (or Company Champion for that matter, it's the same issue) can have a different set of wargear, like a Storm Shield, or combi-bolter or power fist, but it isn't covered in the rules so we can't do that. There are loads of cool things not covered in the rules and we just have to lump it, unfortunately.

[daboarder]

lookit says any Honnour guard, the BC and SN are in the honour guard ergo they are any honour guard.

[Captain Idaho]

lookit says any Honnour guard, the BC and SN are in the honour guard ergo they are any honour guard.

 

And by your logic you can give a Space Marine Sergeant a missile launcher because he is a Space Marine? How do you explain the Sternguard entry? It quite clearly states "Any model may take...." and right beneath it "Two Veterans can replace..." yet all the squad are Sternguard Veterans. If your logic is correct, then why is there clear water between those 2 options?

 

I don't like to throw this out there because it is an arrogant thing to say more often than not, but you are incorrect.

 

GW may very well supply a FAQ that confirms your opinion, but it is a direct contradiction to their previous FAQ in 4th edition that confirmed upgrades don't count as ordinary members of their squad for upgrades. I seriously doubt they will however.