Blood Champion

[Erasmus of Baal]

Again, just as a Libby Dread can't have a Frag Cannon

 

This is guaranteed by the fact that it says "replace all other wargear," not specifying the order in which wargear was taken. The Blood Champion takes additional wargear, and that's where the controversy springs up. It is, ultimately, less a question of terminology than a question of whether or not the order in which the wargear is listed is important.

 

Strange, but I didn't say anything about a Frag Cannon?! Where did you get that quote from?

 

My mistake! Quoted as the wrong person, sorry. Edit complete. This one, however, is indeed you:

 

And by your logic you can give a Space Marine Sergeant a missile launcher because he is a Space Marine? How do you explain the Sternguard entry? It quite clearly states "Any model may take...." and right beneath it "Two Veterans can replace..." yet all the squad are Sternguard Veterans. If your logic is correct, then why is there clear water between those 2 options?

 

Again, this isn't about whether or not I can give the Blood Champion anything else once he is a Blood Champion. Since he is adding wargear and stats instead of replacing, can I replace his Bolt Pistol with a Storm Bolter (Bolt Pitsol is not affected by this upgrade) before upgrading him to a Blood Champion.

 

Also, to vindicate you on the medic: the medic in the Honor Guard can't take the same options as everyone else and I don't think he should be able to take all those options (like a Strom Shield), but I should at least be able to give him a power weapon. Rules say no, though, and that's a founding point of this discussion.

[Captain Idaho]

And by your logic you can give a Space Marine Sergeant a missile launcher because he is a Space Marine? How do you explain the Sternguard entry? It quite clearly states "Any model may take...." and right beneath it "Two Veterans can replace..." yet all the squad are Sternguard Veterans. If your logic is correct, then why is there clear water between those 2 options?

 

Again, this isn't about whether or not I can give the Blood Champion anything else once he is a Blood Champion. Since he is adding wargear and stats instead of replacing, can I replace his Bolt Pistol with a Storm Bolter (Bolt Pitsol is not affected by this upgrade) before upgrading him to a Blood Champion.

 

Indeed, but the quote of mine above is in response to daboarder in his post here:

 

lookit says any Honnour guard, the BC and SN are in the honour guard ergo they are any honour guard.

 

Your point Erasmus of Baal is quite a good one, but I fear is rules lawyering a little, which this reply of mine earlier was for:

 

Would you really think a Chaos Marine player can have a a heavy weapon trooper with Aspiring Champion upgrade and a power fist? Can that Raptor Champion have a melta gun under that logic? Can an Ork boy take a rokkit launcher then be upgraded to an Ork Nob?

 

To which your replied here:

 

Incidentally, yes. I don't see any reason why the guy in charge (especially in those societies) shouldn't be able to have these options as well as the lesser guys under his command.

 

And then I replied here:

 

Well I see no problem in the fluff, but the fluff and the game are 2 separate facts that we must separate from each other. It does seem logical that a Blood Champion (or Company Champion for that matter, it's the same issue) can have a different set of wargear, like a Storm Shield, or combi-bolter or power fist, but it isn't covered in the rules so we can't do that. There are loads of cool things not covered in the rules and we just have to lump it, unfortunately.

 

Which I think covers my opinion on the matter. I do agree with you that a Sanguinary Priest in the Command squad should be able to take at least a power weapon, whilst the Blood Champion should be more customiseable, but rules as they are would indicate we aren't supposed to. We have previous precedent in the 4th edition FAQ that stated upgrade characters cannot be given weapon upgrades for normal members of the unit.

 

Look at this way; an Honour Guard takes a Storm Shield and Power fist as per the options in the unit. When you upgrade that model to a Blood Champion, he is not able to take wargear as he isn't a Honour Guard, therefore the weaponary he already has is illegal because he shouldn't have it.

 

If the Blood Champion is intended to take other wargear, then the Honour Guard entry would say that "Any model may take" instead of singling out specific models. Cited precedent is in the Sternguard entry, which shows how it would work.

[Arkio]

lookit says any Honnour guard, the BC and SN are in the honour guard ergo they are any honour guard.

 

 

no the BC and SN are no longer honor guard at the point they become a BC or SN. hence why in the back of the book and on the page it has 3 different stat lines and differnt wargear layouts for those particular models. its black and white.

[Kunanaki]

I Blame MW.

 

Ambiguous Writing is Ambiguous.

 

Honestly, other then people telling me that this and that doesn't work, it really doesn't point out anything. The Unit name is Honour Guard. That is a true statement. What the information that people are basing this off of.....is the fact the honour guard unit is crammed into one tiny little section, that doesn't have spacing for All the blood champion / noviate thing. What would have been nice is an explanation in the FAQ, so....without that, we just have to shrug and take it as it is, which is a book filled with inconsistencies, crammed sentences, and odd rulings. Why do we have to roll a d6? Why not a leadership test like Space Wolves for Blood Thirst as they do it for Counter Attack? Yes, a lot of this makes me want to go pound somebodies skull in, but it's still a very fun codex with good parts, so don't make him a blood champ.

 

After all, a storm shield / LC or PF combo is far better imo.

[Arkio]

the reality of it sits. that once you take a novitiate and a champ they are no longer following the honor guard statline. as (correct me if i am wrong as my hardcopy is at my friends and my scanned pdf is corrupted.) they are no longer eligable for the "honour guard" upgrades

[daboarder]

perhaps the best thing we can do is agree to disagree, provided your local tournaments and fellow gamers are playing one way or the other the ability to give uprgrades to the BC and SN aren't really anything game breaking so its npot something we should get all worked up about.

[Kunanaki]

The problem is what is accepted in national tournaments. I don't like doing anything without being guaranteed the answer.

[daboarder]

fair enough, personally my pimped out honour guard isn't exactly a unit I'd take to a tournament as it is far to expensive points wise.