Shinzaren Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 Knight-Errant, 2nd Company++Unknown++ Chapter records reach back only 2,000 years, and historical dataslates from Lux Demum only hint at Space Marine presence in that sector roughly 200 years before that time. The Chapter hopes to recover more information when they unearth their Fortress-Monastery on Nox Termina. Only two thousand years old and NO ONE knows who they are? Seems a bit off. The Imperium would have records. Heck, they have records that recount the meetings of the Primarchs and the Emperor. Late in M39, the Lions of the Dawn launched a massive assault on Dark Eldar reavers in the systems neighboring Nox Termina, the Lion’s home world. According to existing records, 7 full companies were deployed, seeking to rid the system of the chronic menace. The Dark Eldar have always been described as a nuisance, not a threat. 700 Marines would be enough to cleanse nearly any force of Dark Eldar in any given area, save Commorragh. The war raged for years, and the Lions maintained steady losses in the constant boarding actions that the more experienced reavers excelled at. To further complicate matters, Orks from adjacent sectors entered the fray, drawn by the prospect of scavenging the loot-rich battlefields the war was providing. Two additional companies of Lions were called in as reinforcements, and the tide seemed to be turning in the Asartes’ favor. Couple things here: 1.) I would think Space Marines would be better equipped and able to handle boarding actions that Eldar. In cramped quarters, speed counts less than power and toughness, and the Dark Eldar wouldn't be able to do hit and run tactics inside an enemy ship. The Marines are built for this. Literally, it's in the name. Marines. 2.)Orks aren't drawn to scavenge loot. Orks are drawn to combat. They could easily be an issue here, but the reason is bad. 3.)You now have 900 marines deployed in one combat zone. That is a system scouring force, capable of reducing nearly enemy to dust. Notable exceptions are Necron Tomb-Worlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, and giant Ork Waaghs. Otherwise, not much can stand against that much face wrecking toughness. 3 years later, the Lions returned from their war against the reavers, victorious but badly broken. Of the 9 companies that departed the system, only 200 brothers returned. Seriously... You lost 700 marines...to Dark Eldar? On the 2nd moon of Nox Termina, the Lions have established an outpost given to the task of overseeing the frozen waste of their former home. Traditionally, members of the Ice Watch were Marines of the 7th Company, charged with their vigilance by former Chapter Master Reborae. As internal debates about the importance of the Chapter's past arose, the Lion's High Command determined that Companies should exchange squads with the 7th for regular tours of duty, thereby solidifying the Chapter's unity. Currently, the practice has fallen out of favor, with only half of the Companies sending squads to the 7th with any regularity. Importance? Is it causing a schism in the chapter? Will this have any affect later on? While focused primarily on the recovery of Chapter relics from the surface below, the mundane tasks are handled by the Company's serfs (which are more than double than that of any other of the Lions' companies), under the careful guidance of a handful of the Chapter's Techmarines and several of its Librarians. This could be rewritten for clarity, as right now, I'm not exactly sure who is focused on the recovery of the Relics. What company's serfs? Does this paragraph still refer to the 7th Company? Why are the serfs bound by company, and not by chapter? This seems like a way of deliberately fragmenting your Chapter and seems silly. Same with having only one company watch over all your relics, and all your recruiting. You're deliberately promoting strife within the chapter for no good reason that I can see. All this allows the Ice Watch to provide intensive training in some of the most inhospitable terrain in the sector. Nox Termina's frozen cities provide tactical training grounds that are unavailable anywhere else, the raging storms providing the Chapter's pilots ample opportunity to perfect hazardous maneuvers. The arduous task of recruiting from Nox Termina's feral population also rests with the Ice Watch, a challenge which Captain Adelais Gelidus has had great success with. Perhaps most importantly, the Ice Watch serves as a guardian to the Chapter's spiritual and historical heart, and is their best, and perhaps only, chance of recovery. See above. Why is the 7th the only company in charge of all of this? And why the 7th at that? Male children begin the trials of their induction to the Lions as early as age 9, a process that can last several years, beginning with spiritual and mental testing. While the training is demanding and expensive, it is available to all eligible children, regardless of their family’s political standing. Once the boys have passed their final examinations, they are eligible to participate in the Grand Tournament, where they will prove their martial prowess, leadership, and cunning against one another. The tournament is presided over by the Chapter Master and his Council, and they personally select recruits from the combatants. So...families have to buy their way into your chapter? Is that what I am getting? Recruits are generally taken between the ages of 10-14 years, and the younger the better. Your lads will need an earlier start than this if they wanna jump the curve. Other worlds of the Lion Protectorate: Nox Termina: Now a death-world locked in a nuclear ice age, Nox Termina formerly served as a trade hub for the surrounding systems and home world of the Lions. The remnants of humanity that survived the cataclysm became feral and banded into tribes, and have proven to be excellent recruiting stock for the Lions, accounting for roughly 30% of all current recruits. The Fastosus System: Relatively new additions to the Lion Protectorate, Fastosus II and III are rugged mining worlds that have provided the Chapter with much-needed resources. After purging the Ork taint from the system, the Lions ordered the colonization of the system. Lux Demum’s destitute, as well as some minor noble houses, eagerly accepted the opportunity to escape from the rigid social structure of life on their home world, only to recreate a shabby imitation of it years later. Trade has begun to grow between Lux Demum and the Fastosus system, but it has been historically sluggish due to political friction. Your homeworld section is way too long. I feel like this last section adds nothing. Perhaps just say that they recruit from 3-4 planets, and give a one or two sentence overview of each planet. Then describe their recruiting practice. Pride, Shame, Victory: The Taming of Fastosus In 737.M41, the Lions held their annual Grand Tournament on Lux Demum. Always a time of great anticipation for both the populace and the Lions themselves, this year was especially so, with many promising recruits rising from the world’s lower castes. Normally a time of celebration and revelry, this tournament was overshadowed by an unspoken tension, the usually good-natured boasts and jests devolving into tavern brawls. Tensions came to a head in the final bout of the tournament, which pitted Vito Artorius, a shoemaker’s son, against Lucian Vir, second son of the powerful Duke Vir. Under the watchful eyes of the Lion’s High Command, the boys fought on for hours, each giving their utmost, both refusing to yield the glory victory would bring. Finally, young Vir drove Artorius to his knees, demanding that he yield. He picked up Artorius’ blade, to deliver it and his own to Chapter Master Renato, symbolizing Vir’s victory and submission. As Vir turned his back, Artorius rose to his feet and, bellowing like an enraged bull, charged into the unprepared Vir. Artorius lifted Vir, armor and all, high above his head and hurled him to the ground, rendering Vir unconscious. Artorius offered Renato the blades, and was crowned with the Champion’s Laurel. Later, at the Initiate’s Feast, Vir was also made an initiate by Chapter Master Renato, who praised his prowess while admonishing him for turning his back on a living foe. The outcry from the lower castes was instantaneous. They saw only political favoritism: the political system would never allow the son of a noble to be beaten by a commoner. Captain Balint of the 6th company, himself a product of humble beginnings, shared the crowds’ concerns, but did his best to calm the multitude, which threatened to become a mob. Captain Acuelo of the 8th, who had been loudly decrying the outcome of the tournament as a black mark on the Chapter’s honor, finally pushed Captain Balint too far, and Balint struck him in front of the crowd. The crowd erupted, and by the time the Lions had restored order, weeks of rioting claimed the lives of thousands. This started out really cool and interesting, with the interplay between nobility and the lower caste. Then it crossed the threshold of disbelief when normal citizens cried foul to a SPACE MARINE CHAPTER MASTER. Seriously. Normal people, calling out a Space Marine, and not just that, but a CHAPTER MASTER? Then, you have 2 captains, the ultimate representation of a Chapter, short of the Master himself, striking each other like children in front of a riotous crowd? Why would they allow a riotous crowd? They are Space Marines. Living weapons who exist solely to slay the enemies of Mankind. They wouldn't negotiate with the common citizens of the Imperium. Their word would be law. As punishment for his actions, Captain Balint was charged with leading his 6th company in to the nearby Fastosus system, to purge the Ork taint there and to secure the system’s resources for the Chapter. Chaplain Priscus Catena attached himself to the crusade, citing his own negligence in allowing the events of the tournament to escalate. The purging of Fastosus lasted nearly 30 years, eventually claiming the life of Captain Balint himself in one of the bloodiest battles in Chapter history. The 6th returned to the Lions victorious but heart-broken, and the Company bears the crowned teardrop as a symbol of the greatest triumph and their most terrible disgrace. Among the bloodiest in the Chapter's history? Didn't they lose like 700 marines, and their homeplanet in a 5 year period? I would think that would pretty much set the Bar... Believing that the breaking of dawn heralds their victory, it is unsurprising that the Lions will take to the field as close to sunrise as possible. The Chapter’s records are filled with battles that seemed all but lost in the black of night, only to have daybreak renew the fervor of the Lions, carrying them to victory. Conversely, they prefer to avoid night fighting when they can, and some of the Chapter’s worst defeats have come after nightfall. This is a pretty silly notion for Astartes who are physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually designed to fight in every environment known to Man. Night fighting would be no cause for them avoid fights. If anything, avoiding night battles and only fighting in the day would be a terrible idea, especially if your enemies ever found out that you're scared of fighting at night. In the actions against Dark Eldar reavers two millennia ago, the Lions suffered their most bitter defeats in ship-boarding actions, where their ordered ranks and disciplined fire was of little use against such a lithe and furtive enemy. In remembrance of this failing, several organizations have focused on fighting in the cramped, twisting confines typical of enemy ships, becoming as lethal onboard as they are on solid ground. Actually, the opposite would be true. In open combat the lithe and furtive Eldar would have the upper hand, where they could retreat at will, and move about more easily. In ship boardings, discipline and focus is paramount, as fighting in close quarters relies on strength and toughness. The marines would naturally excel here, and wouldn't need to train themselves to be better at it. The most prominent is the Lion’s 9th Company, the Starfangs; led by Captain Delmar Nitor, they are constantly off-world in pursuit of pirate fleets, and have distinguished themselves with several significant victories in the past two centuries. Relevance to the IA? It is already a long IA, and any extraneous information can and should be cut. This fits. The Lions employ a large number of Rhinos and Razorbacks, riding them into battle as a knight on a steed, but due to historically poor access to natural resources, combined with the Chapter’s oath to refuse material assistance, they have very few serviceable war machines. They see reliance on dropships as a weakness and orbital bombardment as cowardly. The Lions prefer to meet their enemy head on, trusting in their superior discipline, martial prowess and the strength of their armor to lead them to victory. The Lions value close combat prowess, holding the Chapter’s Gryphons in high esteem. How do they get planet side then? Cutting themselves off from the material of the AdMech is a quick way to die in the constant war of the Far Future. Orbital Bombardments may be cowardly, but when you don't have the material to repair and rearm after battle, cowardly may be your only option. The Lions of the Dawn remain largely adherent to the Codex in terms of numbers and company organization. The Chapter’s more specialized squads, assault marines and devastators, form separate orders within the Chapter and operate somewhat autonomously. Each is overseen by a member of the Lion’s High Command (Master of the Gryphons and Master of the Manticores) who is responsible for training, recruiting (both from within the Chapter and from without), and company assignments. This is contradictory. If they organized into Codex Companies, specialized squads wouldn't form separate orders. Secondly, this seems like a foolish way to handle this, as you are basically relying on one of the High Command to grant your companies access to squads they would normally just use. Seems unnecessary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) Operating autonomously from the 1st Company are the Morningstars Why? The Morningstars can be found wherever the fighting is the thickest, each member an embodiment of war, with skill and experience surpassing that of most Captains. Indeed, several members of the Morningstars would have been made commanders, had their innate battle-lust not raised questions about their abilities to lead. Led by Sgt. Nicon Catigernus, the Morningstars go where they will, but always where needed. So, they are better than Captains, but not Captains, because they can't keep their blood-lust in check, but they are still allowed to go wherever they want. That seems terribly irresponsible. Secondly, what does this add to the IA? Uniqueness for Uniqueness's sake doesn't seem worth including. The Lions are finally approaching full strength after the disastrous events 2,000 years ago, mostly by imposing their will on the feudal society of Lux Demum. 2000 years to rebuild? Seriously? That's a REALLY long time... Before Lux Demum became the Lion’s adopted home world, only the planet's families of wealth and status had the opportunity to receive a formal education and focused military training. The Lion's need for effective recruits removed all societal barriers, allowing all male children, regardless of their social station, the opportunity to become something greater. The political upheaval this caused so long ago can still be observed even now, with the Greater, Lesser and Minor Houses of Lux Demum locked in a cycle of changeable alliances and political subterfuge. Elsewhere in the Protectorate, Captain Gelidus's success with recruiting from Nox Termina has also served to bolster the Lion's ranks, and formal recruiting numbers from the Fastosus system are on the rise as well. Unnecessary. I either already know this information, or I don't care because it hardly relates to the Lions at all. After all, why does any reader care about the social situation of the great houses? No offense, but you're not Frank Herbert, and this isn't Arrakis. Political intrigue is only good when it is relevant. The Lions maintain no scout company; new recruits, known as Young Lions, take the field alongside their more experienced brothers, learning the deadly trade of an Astartes first-hand. The Chapter’s scouting actions are left to highly specialized and secretive battle-brothers, who form the Brotherhood of the Night, an order within the Lions answerable only to the Chapter Master. Really? Come on now... This is just being awesome to be awesome. Completely unnecessary, with no justification in fluff or your own story to necessitate such a group. These Night-Brothers can typically be found fulfilling the roles of assassins, eliminating enemy commanders from seclusion when the Tarot cautions against bold action. Though the Captains of the companies recognize the strategic value of such an organization, they are often loath to utilize them, regarding them a necessary evil at best. Historically, only the 5th Company calls upon the Brotherhood without hesitation, earning them the title of "the Black Lions" and the suspicions of their brother Companies. What? Why? If they are that good, why are they not ALWAYS out killing enemy commanders from hiding? War is always easier to win when your enemy doesn't know he is fighting. You are listing your companies as being outright suspicious of each other. Seems like a bad way to have a chapter, if they are so internally divided. The Lions maintain no reserve company. That explains why it took them 2000 years to rebuild... Companies of the Lions of the DawnCompany Captain Name Color Homeworld 1st Chapter Master Elianus Letifer Emperor's Pride White Lux Demum 2nd Captain Leander Caelistus Dawn's Hammer Gold Lux Demum 3rd Captain Hadrian Varro Claws of Varro Silver Lux Demum 4th Captain Lucian Ardens Flames of Marrius Orange Lux Demum 5th Captain Pervalidus Cruentus Black Lions Black Fastosus III 6th Captain Ezio Ultor Victors Repentant Blue Fastosus II 7th Captain Adelais Gelidus Ice Watch Ice Blue Nox Termina 8th Captain Aeneas Murus Knights of Elysium Green Fastosus III 9th Captain Delmar Nitor Starfangs Purple Fastosus II 10th Captain Ulixies Bucinum Roar of Ironsong Yellow Lux Demum Overly detailed and unnecessary. I would recommend removing this. The Lions consider themselves to be the defenders of the Emperor’s Light, the very civilization which he is the heart of: great Shepherds of the Emperor’s Flock. As such, most of their battles have been fought either in direct defense of Imperial worlds, or as decisive strikes against growing threats. While the Lions can see the value of long crusades into the heart of enemy territory, they worry that too often other Chapters take up the Sword while neglecting the Shield. Space Marines ARE the sword of the Imperium. It is literally what they are created to do. Seek out and destroy the enemies of Mankind. The loss of the Chapter’s history has had a divisive effect on the Lions. Conservative elements in the Chapter’s leadership are focused on recovering their Chapter’s lost history, and are determined to honor all the Primarchs, even those they know they aren’t descended from. Why don't they just ask the AdMech who their progenitor chapter was? Or ask the High Lords? Just because their own records are lost doesn't mean the Imperium lost theirs. The Lions take great care to hide their greatest shame: that they don't with any certainty who their Primarch is. Recovered data-fragments from the turmoil of 20 centuries past have given only hints, some of them conflicting, all of them incomplete. Currently, a majority of the Chapter believes that they are descended from the Dark Angels; the notion of being Sons of the Lion bolstered by the significance the Lions place in signs and portents. If they were DA successors the DA would know, because they would be Unforgiven and subject to hunting down the Fallen. Don't even hint at Dark Angels without bringing up the Fallen. The Dark Angels would have records, and they would tell the Lions, so the Lions could go out and kill Fallen for them. It is not uncommon to see Marines bearing the devices of the Chapter they believe they’re descended from. How prevalent these markings are depends on the Company’s Captain: Captain Nitor of the “Starfangs”, the Lion’s 9th company, is a staunch “Khanate”, and the Brothers under his command have adopted the White Scars lightning bolt. Captain Cruentus of the 5th is poly-Primarch and allows his Marines to bear whatever device they will, while Captain Ardens of the 4th is a “radical”, allowing no devices other than the Chapter’s own. ? This doesn't make sense, and I am sure that the original chapters probably aren't too fond of this tactic. I think that if they truly don't know who their Primarch is, they wouldn't honor or represent any one of them uniquely.... Why not just revere the Emperor and use his badges, like the Aquilla? According to Chapter legend, the battle cry of former Chapter Master Reborae was so fierce it ruptured the eardrums of encircling orks, leaving them dazed and bleeding internally, allowing Reborae to easily dispatch those still standing. Relevance? I would remove this. ************************************************************************** So, those were my thoughts, as asked :D ;) Sorry if I seemed unkind, just trying to help you along. Perhaps Ace or Grey, in their kindness, can assuage any feelings I trampled on :) Seriously though, good IA, and good concepts, just needs a few details ironed out, and worked on. Also, could be trimmed a bit. This is a LONG IA. I guess it could just seem that way to me, but it seemed long... Still, good work so far! Edited November 20, 2010 by Shinzaren Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 Blast! I was informed by the people I share the computer with that I won't be able to use it until tomorrow, and they own the computer. I'll look over it tomorrow, Elohim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 The Lions maintain no scout company; new recruits, known as Young Lions, take the field alongside their more experienced brothers, learning the deadly trade of an Astartes first-hand. The Chapter’s scouting actions are left to highly specialized and secretive battle-brothers, who form the Brotherhood of the Night, an order within the Lions answerable only to the Chapter Master. Really? Come on now... This is just being awesome to be awesome. Completely unnecessary, with no justification in fluff or your own story to necessitate such a group. Well, they have lost 700 marines in fighting with DE. It's possible that scouts were at first commissioned to fill the gaps in the Companies, and because of their inexperince they were dispersed amongs the squads in order to keep them "safe" and to accelerate the training. After some a while this became a custom. Night Brotherhood was formed from neccessity of recon and scout units. This is of course my logical conclusion, based on the presented facts. :tu: The Lions consider themselves to be the defenders of the Emperor’s Light, the very civilization which he is the heart of: great Shepherds of the Emperor’s Flock. As such, most of their battles have been fought either in direct defense of Imperial worlds, or as decisive strikes against growing threats. While the Lions can see the value of long crusades into the heart of enemy territory, they worry that too often other Chapters take up the Sword while neglecting the Shield. Space Marines ARE the sword of the Imperium. It is literally what they are created to do. Seek out and destroy the enemies of Mankind. I disagree, Space Marines are also Shield of Imperium, protecting the Humankind from all threats in the galaxy. BTW, one article in the Index Astartes is called Emperor's Shield: Space Marine Chapters of the Armageddon War. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 The Lions maintain no scout company; new recruits, known as Young Lions, take the field alongside their more experienced brothers, learning the deadly trade of an Astartes first-hand. The Chapter’s scouting actions are left to highly specialized and secretive battle-brothers, who form the Brotherhood of the Night, an order within the Lions answerable only to the Chapter Master. Really? Come on now... This is just being awesome to be awesome. Completely unnecessary, with no justification in fluff or your own story to necessitate such a group. Well, they have lost 700 marines in fighting with DE. It's possible that scouts were at first commissioned to fill the gaps in the Companies, and because of their inexperince they were dispersed amongs the squads in order to keep them "safe" and to accelerate the training. After some a while this became a custom. Night Brotherhood was formed from neccessity of recon and scout units. This is of course my logical conclusion, based on the presented facts. ;) Actually, the "Come on now..." was referring to: ...The Chapter’s scouting actions are left to highly specialized and secretive battle-brothers, who form the Brotherhood of the Night, an order within the Lions answerable only to the Chapter Master... It seems like the idea of having super secret ninja assassin scout marines who answer only to the Chapter Master is just silly. :D That's my personal opinion anyway. The Lions consider themselves to be the defenders of the Emperor’s Light, the very civilization which he is the heart of: great Shepherds of the Emperor’s Flock. As such, most of their battles have been fought either in direct defense of Imperial worlds, or as decisive strikes against growing threats. While the Lions can see the value of long crusades into the heart of enemy territory, they worry that too often other Chapters take up the Sword while neglecting the Shield. I disagree, Space Marines ARE the sword of the Imperium. It is literally what they are created to do. Seek out and destroy the enemies of Mankind. I disagree, Space Marines are also Shield of Imperium, protecting the Humankind from all threats in the galaxy. BTW, one article in the Index Astartes is called Emperor's Shield: Space Marine Chapters of the Armageddon War. Well yes, because Armageddon was a defensive action. Still, the Marines also acted as the sword, heading into the Ork lines to end threats before they could become bigger ones, and attacking in space to spare the world below. Another personal opinion. I see Space Marines as attackers. The Sword. Personal preference rears its head yet again. All the comments made are my own thoughts and ideas, which he is free to use or discard at his leisure :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 It seems like the idea of having super secret ninja assassin scout marines who answer only to the Chapter Master is just silly. :P That's my personal opinion anyway. I see, my bad. Well yes, because Armageddon was a defensive action. Still, the Marines also acted as the sword, heading into the Ork lines to end threats before they could become bigger ones, and attacking in space to spare the world below. Another personal opinion. I see Space Marines as attackers. The Sword. Personal preference rears its head yet again. All the comments made are my own thoughts and ideas, which he is free to use or discard at his leisure :D *shrug* Well yeah, I was just voicing my disagreement with you. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaren Posted November 20, 2010 Share Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) *shrug*Well yeah, I was just voicing my disagreement with you. :) No worries. I won't hold your being wrong against you. :D :P Edited November 20, 2010 by Shinzaren Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2567579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted November 21, 2010 Share Posted November 21, 2010 I'm going to hold off until Shinzaren's words are weighed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2568019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted November 21, 2010 Author Share Posted November 21, 2010 Woo! Look at all that . . . careful what you wish for, right? :cuss Seriously though, thanks for the detailed C+C! No worries about any "hurt feelings"; I like my Chapter a lot but I don't get all emotional when I get good criticism, especially when there's some glaringly silly things about my boys. Alright, enough of that. My comments on the comments: Shinzaren Only two thousand years old and NO ONE knows who they are? Seems a bit off. The Imperium would have records. Heck, they have records that recount the meetings of the Primarchs and the Emperor. True, but the Lions don't want help. They see their unknown Primarch as their spiritual link to the Emperor (hardly unique, I know), but the fact that they've lost it is their secret shame. Within the Chapter, there's different ways of dealing with the shame (search for their history, honor all the primarchs in the off-chance the leave out their's, or forget about it and do they best they can going forward), but no one outside the Chapteris supposed to know that the Lions don't know. Now, as far as how they lost their founding info in the first place, that's the biggest logic hurdle I have to clear (as I see it anyway :cuss). I know "unknown Primarch" is a don't do (I swear I read the guides!) but I wanted to explore the idea of what would happen to a Chapter felt they had lost their connection with the Emperor. The Dark Eldar have always been described as a nuisance, not a threat. 700 Marines would be enough to cleanse nearly any force of Dark Eldar in any given area, save Commorragh. Yeah, I had a feeling the DE were a bad choice. They fit thematically I think (evil raiders hauling off slaves, taking delight in torture and pain etc.), and that's what I latched on to. Considering their tactics though, they wouldn't get into a protracted war, and from what I understand, they wouldn't really even have a real permanent presence outside of Commorragh. So, I think they're getting swapped with Chaos, who can really fit any evil role you need them to. Couple things here:1.) I would think Space Marines would be better equipped and able to handle boarding actions that Eldar. In cramped quarters, speed counts less than power and toughness, and the Dark Eldar wouldn't be able to do hit and run tactics inside an enemy ship. The Marines are built for this. Literally, it's in the name. Marines. 2.)Orks aren't drawn to scavenge loot. Orks are drawn to combat. They could easily be an issue here, but the reason is bad. 3.)You now have 900 marines deployed in one combat zone. That is a system scouring force, capable of reducing nearly enemy to dust. Notable exceptions are Necron Tomb-Worlds, Tyranid Hive Fleets, and giant Ork Waaghs. Otherwise, not much can stand against that much face wrecking toughness. 1) Excellent points. I was thinking along the lines of Space Hulk, where if those Genestealers can get around the more cumbersome Termies, ruh-roh. But power armor is not TDA, and plus that's not how the Dark Eldar roll. And I totally forgot about historical marines. Good call. 2) Not even the Death Skullz?! But you're right, it's not like the Orks need motivation. 3) Here's where brevity didn't get my point across. I know battles aren't much fun to read about, so I tried to keep this as short as I could, but I'll have to expand a little I think. The initial seven companies were somewhat scattered throughout three systems, the first 5 planet-side, with 6 and 7 mostly in space. Orks roll in, bodies pile up, and companies 8 and 9 are called up (there's some uneasiness about leaving the 10th all alone to keep the home fires burning, but desperate times call for desperate measures). So, long story short, I agree that 900 marines = problems solved, but at most there were 700 deployed at once (slightly less silly, right?) across multiple systems. If that's still not plausible (or more importantly, believable), I think it can be changed. Seriously... You lost 700 marines...to Dark Eldar? . . . and Orks! But yeah, there's another point where the DE were a bad choice. The more I think about Chaos as their initial enemy, the more I like em. Importance? Is it causing a schism in the chapter? Will this have any affect later on? The Lions aren't one big happy family - there's some splintering at the very core of their beliefs, and the Ice Watch is one of the few institutions left to the Chapter to try to heal old wounds (without having the Chaplains go around smacking everyone). I don't mean that companies are going to open fire on one another, but there's a lack of internal harmony that the Lions would like to keep from the eyes of the Inquisition. As far as any future ramifications, yeah, there are some, but it's a secret ... This could be rewritten for clarity, as right now, I'm not exactly sure who is focused on the recovery of the Relics. What company's serfs? Does this paragraph still refer to the 7th Company? Why are the serfs bound by company, and not by chapter? This seems like a way of deliberately fragmenting your Chapter and seems silly. Same with having only one company watch over all your relics, and all your recruiting. You're deliberately promoting strife within the chapter for no good reason that I can see. See above. Why is the 7th the only company in charge of all of this? And why the 7th at that? Yeah, I'll have to clarify that. Initially when I wrote this, I gave the impression that all 100 marines of the 7th were digging through the ice, rooting around for stuff. NightrawenII and Ferrata pointed out that this really isn't a job for super-human killing machines, especially when there's Chapter serfs, Techmarines, etc. So, the serfs are primarily tasked with the physical search for and recovery of artifacts, but are always accompanied by one or two squads. As far as serfs being bound to the company and not the Chapter, poor word choice. The serfs are the Chapters serfs, but they're specially equipped/trained/programmed for their recovery work for the 7th company. For the recruiting, only about 30% of the Chapter's recruits are from Nox Termina, but they're distributed throughout the Chapter. As for all the relics, yeah, they pretty much have exclusive access to the Chapter's oldest stuff, but it doesn't stay with them long before it's shipped off to the Chapter Fortress on Lux Demum. I'll have to clarify the 7th's role as a unifying element for the Chapter. Why the 7th and only the 7th? 2000 years ago, when the High Command determined that an effort needed to be made to recover the Chapter relics, Captain Handus Waiveus was the only unanimous choice for the job, given his skills and his unshakable belief that recovering the past = best possible future. As Ferrata pointed out, 100 marines is a lot to commit to what is essentially recovery and training, so more would seem excessive, but less would feel like "what's the point?". And again, even though they're recovery-focused, they still wake up every morning ready to bring the pain to the enemies of Man. So...families have to buy their way into your chapter? Is that what I am getting? Recruits are generally taken between the ages of 10-14 years, and the younger the better. Your lads will need an earlier start than this if they wanna jump the curve. Yikes - it really does read like that. I wanted to emphasize that taking young adolescents out of an agrarian workforce would cause hardships for the family if they lost a worker so he could go get an education. Worth it if he makes the cut, but not so great if he doesn't. Good call on getting them started even younger - no real reason why they can't, since the training/education "order" spirit -> mind -> body. *** I'll address the remaining points later today, but again, I've read everything you guys have posted so far, and I really appreciate all the help. Thanks again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2568294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) Okay, little bit later now... Where was I? Oh yes Shinzaren (cont.) Your homeworld section is way too long. I feel like this last section adds nothing. Perhaps just say that they recruit from 3-4 planets, and give a one or two sentence overview of each planet. Then describe their recruiting practice. Looking at the Fastosus system part, yeah, all that info isn't really integral to the Chapter, just another example of some of the internal headaches they deal with. I'll rework it to emphasize the more industrial aspects and what it means to the Chapter's resources/recruits. I think the Nox Termina section is pretty trim, but is that information getting through in the rest of the sections? This started out really cool and interesting, with the interplay between nobility and the lower caste. Then it crossed the threshold of disbelief when normal citizens cried foul to a SPACE MARINE CHAPTER MASTER. Seriously. Normal people, calling out a Space Marine, and not just that, but a CHAPTER MASTER? Then, you have 2 captains, the ultimate representation of a Chapter, short of the Master himself, striking each other like children in front of a riotous crowd? Why would they allow a riotous crowd? They are Space Marines. Living weapons who exist solely to slay the enemies of Mankind. They wouldn't negotiate with the common citizens of the Imperium. Their word would be law. You have a point - the civilian population should be a bit more in awe of the Chapter. What I was trying to capture here, and didn't succeed in, was the straw that broke the camel's back: the lower castes of Lux Demum have a "people's champion" that gets a figuartive slap to the face by having his vanquished opponent receive the same honors, ostensibly beacause he's a noble. I think if you get a big enough crowd with revolution on their minds, it doesn't matter who is on the receiving end of their anger. The "crying foul" is mostly just loud shouting which would have died down to a simmering resentment. Normally, the Lions would give the finger to the crowd and let them be as unhappy as they want, but when it starts to endanger their recruiting, they step in. As far as the Captains smacking each other around... it does seem a little silly, but when you've got two superhumans that have decades of animosity built up, things might get a little nuts. I guess this is an example of starting with the end and working backwards (not the best way to have a naturally evolving story). I'll have to think some more on how to make this work a little better. Among the bloodiest in the Chapter's history? Didn't they lose like 700 marines, and their homeplanet in a 5 year period? I would think that would pretty much set the Bar... Ha, whoops. Yeah, this doesn't really seem all that significant in comparison - I'll think of another way to say "Things didn't go so well" in Grimdark-ese This is a pretty silly notion for Astartes who are physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually designed to fight in every environment known to Man. Night fighting would be no cause for them avoid fights. If anything, avoiding night battles and only fighting in the day would be a terrible idea, especially if your enemies ever found out that you're scared of fighting at night. "Avoid" was a bad word choice on my part. My guys aren't afraid of the dark and will take the fight to the enemy, but there's always an unvoiced sense of unease when they have to. They place an almost-religious significance on light (physical and spiritual), and they also have a bad track record in night-fighting actions. Whether those two facts share a connection, who can say...? And not to justify any silliness by pointing to GW Chapters (he said as he set out to do exactly that), but isn't there one that won't take the field unless the "signs and portents" are right? Actually, the opposite would be true. In open combat the lithe and furtive Eldar would have the upper hand, where they could retreat at will, and move about more easily. In ship boardings, discipline and focus is paramount, as fighting in close quarters relies on strength and toughness. The marines would naturally excel here, and wouldn't need to train themselves to be better at it. Gotcha. I'll most likely cut the whole section, seeing as it's founded on flawed assumptions. Relevance to the IA? It is already a long IA, and any extraneous information can and should be cut. This fits. I'll cut it; this is just me trying to round out the IA. I honestly thought it was a little short. Thanks for the feedback on the length; I was having a hard time judging what people could/would be expecting to read in a sitting. How do they get planet side then? Cutting themselves off from the material of the AdMech is a quick way to die in the constant war of the Far Future. Orbital Bombardments may be cowardly, but when you don't have the material to repair and rearm after battle, cowardly may be your only option. They use Thunderhawks primarily. I don't mean to imply that the never use drop pods or orbital bombardments, but using them as their first option breeds Laxity. Laxity breeds Cowardice. Cowardice breeds Heresy. Heresy breeds Death. I agree that being cut off from the AdMech is a bad way to die, and the Lions had been hurting for a long time until they claimed the Fastosus system. Since then, things have been improving (equipment-wise, anyway). They've mostly been cobbling together gear from what they could salvage from the Big One and stuff from Nox Termina. This is contradictory. If they organized into Codex Companies, specialized squads wouldn't form separate orders. Secondly, this seems like a foolish way to handle this, as you are basically relying on one of the High Command to grant your companies access to squads they would normally just use. Seems unnecessary. Codex-adherent with quirks, I guess. They embrace the prinicpals of the Codex while altering what they want to suit their needs. I know, the Codex is a vast collection of documents that provides theory/advice/guidelines on conducting war in any situation, etc., and they follow it by and large, but the way the follow it is different. From just looking at the make-up of a "typical" company, it would be almost exactly like, say, a company of the Ultramarines. The specialized orders came about from when the Lions were down to a scant 300 men - there weren't enough specialists to go around, so they all trained together and got shared around. The "tradition" stuck, and now we've got the Gryphons and Manticores (half-lions, half-other stuff. Pretty clever, right? :D ). The assigning of a squad is a permanent thing: once assigned to the 8th, always assigned to the 8th etc. Raises a question though: in a "normal" Chapter, who makes the call as to what Marine fills which role? Does the Captain say "Hey, my assault squad's down a guy - I'll strap a jump pack to Brother Timmy and tell him to get to work. Geez, I hope he knows how to work that thing..."? Why? So, they are better than Captains, but not Captains, because they can't keep their blood-lust in check, but they are still allowed to go wherever they want. That seems terribly irresponsible. Secondly, what does this add to the IA? Uniqueness for Uniqueness's sake doesn't seem worth including.Cause the Morningstars = Win! Sorry, this is me trying to use IA space for my models. I was looking over my Space Hulk guys and thought "I want to make a team of ornate badasses for my Lions". Thought if I just made them uber-cool (and they are) I could get away with it. I have brought shame upon my Chapter and my Emperor. This'll get cut. 2000 years to rebuild? Seriously? That's a REALLY long time... True, but they've been pretty resource-poor for most of that time. Is there a genrally-accepted number on the success rate of normal kids making it to Marine-hood? ***More later. Almost there*** Edited November 24, 2010 by elohimalpha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2570473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine_Breaker Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 True, but they've been pretty resource-poor for most of that time. Is there a genrally-accepted number on the success rate of normal kids making it to Marine-hood? According to GW it takes 155 years to raise a chapter of 1000 Astartes from scratch... 2000 years is ridiculous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2571132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 True, but they've been pretty resource-poor for most of that time. Is there a genrally-accepted number on the success rate of normal kids making it to Marine-hood? According to GW it takes 155 years to raise a chapter of 1000 Astartes from scratch... 2000 years is ridiculous. Where did you get your numbers? It takes 55years to grown enough gene-seed to create a Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2571138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine_Breaker Posted November 24, 2010 Share Posted November 24, 2010 I got my numbers from years old memory. So I guess the '1' shouldn't have been there... But whatever, my point stands. 2000 years is way too long to rebuild a chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2571247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted November 25, 2010 Author Share Posted November 25, 2010 Ok, soldiering on. Shinzaren (cont.) Unnecessary. I either already know this information, or I don't care because it hardly relates to the Lions at all. After all, why does any reader care about the social situation of the great houses? No offense, but you're not Frank Herbert, and this isn't Arrakis. Political intrigue is only good when it is relevant. Frank who? Kidding. I tried to avoid getting too far into the political scene since the stories that would fully explain the situation don't belong in an IA. I agree that the political situation should get hardly any air time, but I do think that it has some bearing on the Lions. The majority of their recruits come from Lux Demum and are pretty much volunteers, so unless the Lions switch up to abducting children, the need some sort of positive relationship with the populace. Again, they don't play the political games, and are happy enough to let the Houses do what they want as long as the recruits keep coming. Really? Come on now... This is just being awesome to be awesome. Completely unnecessary, with no justification in fluff or your own story to necessitate such a group. NightrawenII nailed it. It's one thing I've never understood about scouts of Codex chapters - your initiates are supposed to be training to become full battle brothers, but you make them fight completely differently with specialized equipment that they won't use again. Hence the Black Templar-esque approach to training initiates. Making them answerable only to the Chapter Master is a bit much, you're right - too much power for such a small organization. Any Captain requesting their aid must be given it, and conversely, any Captain must accept their help if offered. Squads would be attached to a Company long enough to complete a mission, then return to the Brotherhood. I do like keeping them as a group of "elite" outsiders though, because their style of warfare is just so different in both philosophy and execution. ...super secret ninja assassin scout marines... What's not to like?! What? Why? If they are that good, why are they not ALWAYS out killing enemy commanders from hiding? War is always easier to win when your enemy doesn't know he is fighting. You are listing your companies as being outright suspicious of each other. Seems like a bad way to have a chapter, if they are so internally divided. The limited use of the Brotherhood goes back to most of the Captains being highly resistant to using them, mostly because killing the enemy from long range with little danger to yourself is seen as dishonorable. And yeah, that's kinda silly, but I feel that there's a lot of wackiness going on in the Imperium that has pretty detrimental effects; I feel that Marines being reluctant to do something because it's "dishonorable" isn't too much of stretch. As far as the internal division, yeah, it's not ideal, I agree, but I see it as an extension of the problem of their missing past. None of the Companies are going to start blasting each other, but I think that when you have centuries-old killing machines with different opinions on key issues, some friction is only natural. That explains why it took them 2000 years to rebuild... Reserve Companies are for cowards ;) . But really, I never understood their purpose - 1 million marines for a million worlds, oh but wait, 20% of em are in reserve... the Imperium doesn't need to tie a hand behind its back when its fighting. Overly detailed and unnecessary. I would recommend removing this. Gotcha. I can take it out and it'll have no impact on the IA - just adding extra "flavor". If you haven't figured it out by now, I love creating characters... Space Marines ARE the sword of the Imperium. It is literally what they are created to do. Seek out and destroy the enemies of Mankind. I don't mean to say that the Lions won't take the fight to the enemy, but "historically" their offensive actions have been preemptive strikes against growing/perceived threats, or in support of other Chapters. They're concerned with how best to protect the Imperium, especially their small chunk of it. This part was in mostly to explain why they're not off kicking ass in the Eye of Terror, etc. Why don't they just ask the AdMech who their progenitor chapter was? Or ask the High Lords? Just because their own records are lost doesn't mean the Imperium lost theirs. A matter of pride and honor. It's a sort of penance. Admitting "defeat" isn't an option - they'll get their connection back themselves or not at all. I agree that the AdMech or the HLoT (love those guys) probably have the answer, but why give them leverage? "Ok Lions, we'll restore your past, but first, here's a laundry list of things you need to do." Maybe unrealistic, but it could happen. If they were DA successors the DA would know, because they would be Unforgiven and subject to hunting down the Fallen. Don't even hint at Dark Angels without bringing up the Fallen. The Dark Angels would have records, and they would tell the Lions, so the Lions could go out and kill Fallen for them. Mmm, good call. Forgot about that Fallen-hunting thing. Two things this brings up though: 1) the Dark Angels (and Blood Angels for that matter) have been sitting on some pretty honkin' secrets for 10,000 years, and they're super-famous Founding Chapters (or is that why they can get away with it?); in this universe, a 2,000 year-old secret doesn't seem that significant. And 2) do the Angels of Absolution still hunt the Fallen? I got the impression that they were "over it". That could lead to a Lion El' descendant that didn't hunt the Fallen, right? (weak I know - and besides, the HLoT don't like using DA stock) ? This doesn't make sense, and I am sure that the original chapters probably aren't too fond of this tactic. I think that if they truly don't know who their Primarch is, they wouldn't honor or represent any one of them uniquely.... Why not just revere the Emperor and use his badges, like the Aquilla? The Lions wouldn't get in to Chapter history with any of the other Chapters, so they'll never even know, but yeah, I can't imagine that they'd be too thrilled. A few of the Companies do exactly as you suggest, the "progressives" (Chapter-hero focus and looking to the future), and the "poly-Primarchs" that don't want to dishonor their Primarch by displaying another Primarch's heraldry. The Companies that honor/represent a single Primarch are convinced that they've got it figured out, and if the rest of the Chapter is too ignorant/stubborn/prideful to accept the "evidence", too bad for them. Relevance? I would remove this. None really, but then again, the Battle Cry section doesn't really have any bearing on an IA, other than pure fluff. I think it demonstrates the reverence they have for a legendary hero of their Chapter. So, those were my thoughts, as asked. Sorry if I seemed unkind, just trying to help you along. Perhaps Ace or Grey, in their kindness, can assuage any feelings I trampled on. Seriously though, good IA, and good concepts, just needs a few details ironed out, and worked on. Also, could be trimmed a bit. This is a LONG IA. I guess it could just seem that way to me, but it seemed long... Still, good work so far! Woo, the end! Believe me, no hurt feelings here - none of that was malicious! Thanks for taking the time to be so thorough! I did my best to not be defensive, because no one wants to help people that won't accept it. At the same time, there's some points that I feel are somewhat key and not just unique for the sake of being unique, so they'll most likely stay with some tweaking. As far as the length, I'm a bad judge of how long these things are supposed to be :D. Some of that info is only in there to flesh the Chapter out, so I'll work on trimming it down. DAT Looking forward to it! NightrawenII Thanks for continuing to read! Well, they have lost 700 marines in fighting with DE. It's possible that scouts were at first commissioned to fill the gaps in the Companies, and because of their inexperince they were dispersed amongs the squads in order to keep them "safe" and to accelerate the training. After some a while this became a custom. Night Brotherhood was formed from neccessity of recon and scout units. This is of course my logical conclusion, based on the presented facts. Exactly right! I disagree, Space Marines are also Shield of Imperium, protecting the Humankind from all threats in the galaxy. Smart smart man! Although I guess every style of warfare can be interpreted differently - a Crusading chapter that is always outside of Imperial space could say that they're protecting/shielding the Imperium - fighting the enemy "over there" so we don't have to fight them "here". Nine-Breaker Welcome to the party! Thanks for the numbers - that gives me a better idea of how long the rebuilding should go. Any idea of the ratio of initiates to Battle Brothers? 100:1? I remember reading/hearing that the rejection rate of all the organs needed to build a Space Marine was pretty high. Also, how long does it take for an initiate to become a full Marine? Is that where the 55 years comes from? I'll have to look at the "disaster 2000 years ago" angle, and maybe expand the scope of the actions in the Fastosus system and move it forward in time. And emphasize that their troop strength is near-1000, but everything else is still sub-standard . . . *** I think that catches me up. Thanks again for your comments all - I'll be making some changes in the next few days, with notes to follow! Happy Thanksgiving! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2571563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 25, 2010 Share Posted November 25, 2010 Reserve Companies are for cowards :) . But really, I never understood their purpose - 1 million marines for a million worlds, oh but wait, 20% of em are in reserve... the Imperium doesn't need to tie a hand behind its back when its fighting. Well, the Reserve Companies don't sit in Fortress-Monastery, poking in their noses. They are usually used to reinforce the Battle Companies, so the Task Force send to fight Ork Waaagh! could be like: 4th company, 100 tac. marines 1st company, 20 veterans 10th company, 20 scouts 7th company, 30 tac. marines 8th company, 10 assault marines 8th comapny, 5 bikers 9th company, 10 dev. marines ------------------------------------ 6 companies, 195 marines in total Mmm, good call. Forgot about that Fallen-hunting thing. Two things this brings up though: 1) the Dark Angels (and Blood Angels for that matter) have been sitting on some pretty honkin' secrets for 10,000 years, and they're super-famous Founding Chapters (or is that why they can get away with it?); in this universe, a 2,000 year-old secret doesn't seem that significant. And 2) do the Angels of Absolution still hunt the Fallen? I got the impression that they were "over it". That could lead to a Lion El' descendant that didn't hunt the Fallen, right? (weak I know - and besides, the HLoT don't like using DA stock) The Unforgiven hold coucils on the Rock frequently, so if your Chapter was/is the DA successor, you will get a call from SGM. Angels of Absolution think that they are absolved from the sins of 1st Legion. But they still hunt the Fallen, just they aren't too keen. Any idea of the ratio of initiates to Battle Brothers? 100:1? I remember reading/hearing that the rejection rate of all the organs needed to build a Space Marine was pretty high. Also, how long does it take for an initiate to become a full Marine? Is that where the 55 years comes from? Neophytes to Initiates. :lol: The induction, tests and training are rigorous and gruesome. Most recruits, for some or other reason, don't make it to the full battle-brother. The rejection rate cannot be over 50%, otherwise your Chapter is dying out. Read the Rites of Initiation in the Index Astartes book, it gives you good insight into marine's recruitment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2571738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine_Breaker Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Welcome to the party! Thanks for the numbers - that gives me a better idea of how long the rebuilding should go. Any idea of the ratio of initiates to Battle Brothers? 100:1? I remember reading/hearing that the rejection rate of all the organs needed to build a Space Marine was pretty high. Also, how long does it take for an initiate to become a full Marine? Is that where the 55 years comes from? According to 3rd ed. SM 'dex, it's safe to assume that about 8% of all raw recruits (normal boys at this point) will go on to graduate from the 10th company and receive the vetted black carapace. That's assuming your chapter recruits from a particularly hardy and healthy people as most Astartes do. So if the chapter stops fighting for awhile and goes on a strong recruiting drive, say gathering about 1200 viable recruits in a year, then they could have a full company's worth of Astartes in full power armor in the next decade with more ready to graduate from the 10th. Seeing as how any male child on the Lion's homeworld can compete to join the chapter, it is perfectly reasonable that the Lions could gather more than 1200 a year. So you see your chapter could be back to full strength in seven decades or less. And even if the chapter conducts some minor routine missions (hunting pirates, putting down rebellions, purging small xenos infestations, etc) and stays out of big trouble, it shouldn't take much more than a century or so for a chapter to get back to full strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2573619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 According to 3rd ed. SM 'dex, it's safe to assume that about 8% of all raw recruits (normal boys at this point) will go on to graduate from the 10th company and receive the vetted black carapace. That's assuming your chapter recruits from a particularly hardy and healthy people as most Astartes do. Citation needed, especially the black carapace part. The 3rd 'dex mentions survival rate of neophytes at 54%. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2573744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine_Breaker Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 According to 3rd ed. SM 'dex, it's safe to assume that about 8% of all raw recruits (normal boys at this point) will go on to graduate from the 10th company and receive the vetted black carapace. That's assuming your chapter recruits from a particularly hardy and healthy people as most Astartes do. Citation needed, especially the black carapace part. The 3rd 'dex mentions survival rate of neophytes at 54%. :D ... If I must. Pg.45, right column of the page is the testimonies of several Silver Skulls responsible for bringing in new blood. Silver Skulls recruit from Garanda II and mentions that around 35% is the usual induction rate of all 'subjects' tested. The testimonies there go on to say that 11 of 38 of the potentials are taken for further screening. 7 of those become serfs due to tissue rejection or not having the required mental fortitude and 4 are allowed to begin training as Neophytes. Of these 4, one dies because of rejection/mutation of the biscopea implant the promotes muscle growth. The last three Neophytes survive the 10th Company and graduate as indicated by the testimony of a Chaplain Deiad. 3 of 38 original is about 8%. I don't see the 54% that you mentioned, but that may just be because I'm not looking that hard or perhaps I just read that entire page wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2573868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 According to 3rd ed. SM 'dex, it's safe to assume that about 8% of all raw recruits (normal boys at this point) will go on to graduate from the 10th company and receive the vetted black carapace. That's assuming your chapter recruits from a particularly hardy and healthy people as most Astartes do. So if the chapter stops fighting for awhile and goes on a strong recruiting drive, say gathering about 1200 viable recruits in a year, then they could have a full company's worth of Astartes in full power armor in the next decade with more ready to graduate from the 10th. Seeing as how any male child on the Lion's homeworld can compete to join the chapter, it is perfectly reasonable that the Lions could gather more than 1200 a year. So you see your chapter could be back to full strength in seven decades or less. And even if the chapter conducts some minor routine missions (hunting pirates, putting down rebellions, purging small xenos infestations, etc) and stays out of big trouble, it shouldn't take much more than a century or so for a chapter to get back to full strength. Pg.45, right column of the page is the testimonies of several Silver Skulls responsible for bringing in new blood. Silver Skulls recruit from Garanda II and mentions that around 35% is the usual induction rate of all 'subjects' tested. The testimonies there go on to say that 11 of 38 of the potentials are taken for further screening. 7 of those become serfs due to tissue rejection or not having the required mental fortitude and 4 are allowed to begin training as Neophytes. Of these 4, one dies because of rejection/mutation of the biscopea implant the promotes muscle growth. The last three Neophytes survive the 10th Company and graduate as indicated by the testimony of a Chaplain Deiad. 3 of 38 original is about 8% Thanks again Nine_Breaker - this info is a big help. Definitely a spot that needs to be reworked. And to everyone that's offered C&C: I'm workin' on it! There's some serious refining that needs to be done to the Lions, and I'm trying to not burn the whole damn thing to the ground. Thanks for your time and input! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2577742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 Late in M39, the Lions of the Dawn launched a massive assault on Dark Eldar reavers in the systems neighboring Nox Termina, the Lion’s home world. Wait what? You launch into this a bit suddenly. There is very, very little foreshadowing, any real comment on who the chapter was at that point before suddenly they are off and about to kill stuff. It's too sudden for me. The war raged for years, and the Lions maintained steady losses in the constant boarding actions that the more experienced reavers excelled at. Wait hold on. You're fighting Dark Eldar - one of the most notoriously hard to catch races in the galaxy (moreso than their more balanced brethren), who don't like fighting when not on their own terms at significant advantage, who's entire battle doctrine involves keeping you guessing and moving faster and striking harder than you can - and you're somehow disabling/catching their vessels (which are superior to Imperial ships in just about every way bar endurance and sheer weight of firepower) and then boarding them? I'm not saying it's impossible what I'm saying is that it should be very, very rare. If the Dark Eldar aren't striking from Webway portals on a planets or seeking to capture your ship and enslave your crew they have no reason to stick around in a straight fight with Imperial warships and are more than capable of quickly and easily disengaging and disappearing. Governor Ilio, the Planetary Governor of Nox Termina, who had long chafed under the watchful eye of the Lions, seized the opportunity to launch an open rebellion. While this isn't impossible either and is fine really in concept, it's all too rushed and hastily explained or thrown out there with no real context or true reasoning. He did what? Why? What exactly chafed him about their rule and why in the hells did he choose a time when xenos enemies were having a veritable stacks-on with the Astartes, his best chance for survival in his planets sector of space? Independence is all well and good but choosing your moment is also wise. What made that time specifically good for him to move? All this in the origins section feels like you're cramming in far too much in too small a space and touching upon everything far too briefly and as such everything feels rushed at best. At worst some bits feel shoe-horned in for gratuities sake even though I can guess that it's not what you were intending. Sorry I don't have more input for you but it's far too early in the morning and work looms ever close in the coming dawn so I must go. It's not bad though, just needs work as all our projects do. Though I haven't seen much of the chapters character yet I can hazard a guess and I think it could be promising. I'll come back with more if time is permitting, which it hasn't been lately but we can but hope. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2579472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted December 4, 2010 Author Share Posted December 4, 2010 Thanks for the C&C Grey Hunter Ydalir! Some excellent points in here: Wait what? You launch into this a bit suddenly. There is very, very little foreshadowing, any real comment on who the chapter was at that point before suddenly they are off and about to kill stuff. It's too sudden for me. It does launch in to a major battle pretty quickly, but the idea that I was aiming for is that it's really the oldest concrete history the Chapter has, and the 'modern' Lions think of this period as sort of their second founding date (but that's not quite right either - rebirth maybe?). They don't really know who they were before all this went down. I know what their "history" was/is, but writing in an omnipotent style isn't nearly as much fun ;) Wait hold on. You're fighting Dark Eldar - one of the most notoriously hard to catch races in the galaxy (moreso than their more balanced brethren), who don't like fighting when not on their own terms at significant advantage, who's entire battle doctrine involves keeping you guessing and moving faster and striking harder than you can - and you're somehow disabling/catching their vessels (which are superior to Imperial ships in just about every way bar endurance and sheer weight of firepower) and then boarding them? I'm not saying it's impossible what I'm saying is that it should be very, very rare. If the Dark Eldar aren't striking from Webway portals on a planets or seeking to capture your ship and enslave your crew they have no reason to stick around in a straight fight with Imperial warships and are more than capable of quickly and easily disengaging and disappearing. Yeah, didn't do my homework on the DE before I wrote this. Busted. I've since picked up the new DE codex (gonna burn it later, I swear!) and I realized just how far off the mark I was. Other than a mention of an exile pirate-fleet and a really interesting blurb about the Dying Sun Kabal (what better enemies?!) the entire style of DE warfare isn't gonna work for this. Thematically, for sure, but tactically, nope. Switching the DE over to Chaos raiders/reavers, and paring down the ship-to-ship actions. While this isn't impossible either and is fine really in concept, it's all too rushed and hastily explained or thrown out there with no real context or true reasoning. He did what? Why? What exactly chafed him about their rule and why in the hells did he choose a time when xenos enemies were having a veritable stacks-on with the Astartes, his best chance for survival in his planets sector of space? Independence is all well and good but choosing your moment is also wise. What made that time specifically good for him to move? I can certainly expand on his motivation a bit more - it's important, but ultimately, all that matters is that he did it. I'll use the IA-space where the Morningstars used to be . . . :) . As far as the timing goes, he thought it was unlikely that the Lions would ever be any weaker. I want to stay away from "he was being controlled by Chaos" because c'mon, everyone saw that coming. All this in the origins section feels like you're cramming in far too much in too small a space and touching upon everything far too briefly and as such everything feels rushed at best. At worst some bits feel shoe-horned in for gratuities sake even though I can guess that it's not what you were intending. Ha! Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I agree, there's not a lot of space devoted to the origins - I'll try to expand on the points you mentioned. I've been told it's already a long IA, and I wanted to move on to what the Chapter is, rather than what the Chapter was. But, seeing how the history has a direct (and major) impact on the Lion's current situation, I'll use less handwavium in the next revision. Sorry I don't have more input for you but it's far too early in the morning and work looms ever close in the coming dawn so I must go. It's not bad though, just needs work as all our projects do. Though I haven't seen much of the chapters character yet I can hazard a guess and I think it could be promising. I'll come back with more if time is permitting, which it hasn't been lately but we can but hope. ;) All input is valuable, regardless of quantity! Besides, I've got Shinzaren for that :D Thanks for taking the time to read and help - I'll try to make it worth everyone's efforts! ------------ Now, before I commit a bunch of energy to gutting the IA, here's a quick outline of the major changes I'm planning on: - Dark Eldar out, Chaos pirates/reavers in. Chaos can give me all the dark evil piratiness I need with none of the hit-and-run headaches - Moving the timeline up some. I was thinking of moving the "Major Battle that devestates the Lions" somewhere in the 700-800 years ago range. The reason I went with 2000 years initially was that it would ensure no veterans of that time would be around to pass on first-hand knowledge and things would be suitably "lost in the mists of time". I'm hoping that 800 years can pretty much accomplish the same effect. I'm assuming of course that the oldest Space Marines aren't making it past 200, and that Dreadnoughts have spotty memories. - The Taming of Fastosus will be a lot more recent, about 100 years ago - the 6th Company will be rebuilding still, and the system's factories will be producing equipment, most likely at sub-optimal quantities. - Superfluous details will be cut throughout: Company break-down, most of the gene-seed section, etc. Not a comprehensive list by any means, but my comments on the C&C I've received should give you (dear reader) a good idea of where I'm going with all of this. Thanks again to everyone who's helped me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2579955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Now, before I commit a bunch of energy to gutting the IA, here's a quick outline of the major changes I'm planning on:- Dark Eldar out, Chaos pirates/reavers in. Chaos can give me all the dark evil piratiness I need with none of the hit-and-run headaches - You don't always have to restrict yourself to one enemy; it isn't like a Chapter Master will say "This year we will only be fighting Chaos.." - Moving the timeline up some. I was thinking of moving the "Major Battle that devestates the Lions" somewhere in the 700-800 years ago range. The reason I went with 2000 years initially was that it would ensure no veterans of that time would be around to pass on first-hand knowledge and things would be suitably "lost in the mists of time". I'm hoping that 800 years can pretty much accomplish the same effect. I'm assuming of course that the oldest Space Marines aren't making it past 200, and that Dreadnoughts have spotty memories. - It depends on attrition rates; if you have ahigh rate of combat missions you end up with the likelyhood of more potential Veterans, but by the same token the increased chance of higher casualties. Also, the major incident bit is oft overdone, maybe think of otherways the Company the same result can be achieved? Depending on how set you are on the character of the Chapter, you could make their own pride or conceit their downfall. - The Taming of Fastosus will be a lot more recent, about 100 years ago - the 6th Company will be rebuilding still, and the system's factories will be producing equipment, most likely at sub-optimal quantities. These are the Astartes, they can never get enough war materiel :tu: - Superfluous details will be cut throughout: Company break-down, most of the gene-seed section, etc. - The only time you need a lengthy Organisation section is if they differ from the Codex, then you need a good reason why. Same thing for the Geneseed section; a few sentences on who their Primarch is and any way in which the gene seed affects them beyond the norm - if at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2580150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elohimalpha Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Alright, after an extended break from the Lions, I'm back at "work". I considered some pretty crazy changes for these guys, one leading to the Lions becoming renegades with more than a passing similarity to the Space Wolves (in terms of units, not cultural influences, etc.). Luckily, sanity prevailed. I've given my boys a Dad, but the founding and Chapter responsible for their creation is still lost. The sun now has more "religious" significance, and I've moved the whole time-line up quite a bit. Again, thanks for reading, and C&C is always welcome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2690037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 The Lions of the Dawn have protected Imperial holdings in the Segmentum Pacificus for over 1,000 years. The devastating loss of their home world has left them struggling to find a balance between recovering their past and building their future, and conflicting attitudes about the Chapter’s direction threaten the unity of the Lions. Though they are renowned for their courage and staunch defense of the worlds of their protectorate, oaths of pride from the Chapter’s distant past continue hinder them even now. These things end best on a bang. Perhaps replace the last sentence with something like - ..."threaten the unity of the Lions - and their very survival." Cliche, but effective. Through the process of genetic screening, the Lions of the Dawn have determined that they are descended from Rogal Dorn, but the chapter responsible for their founding remains a mystery. Chapter records reach back only 1,000 years, and historical dataslates from Lux Demum only hint at Space Marine presence in that sector roughly 200 years before that time. The Chapter hopes to recover more information when they unearth their Fortress-Monastery on Nox Termina. Neither of the latin names make sense yet, since you haven't explained what they are. Also, the campaign you're currently participating in will predate your existing chapter records. Just FYI. Furthermore, even if the records were lost, they'd still remember a hell of a lot of it. I mean, presumably somebody read some of them. On the 2nd moon of Nox Termina, the Lions have established an outpost given to the task of overseeing the frozen waste of their former home. Traditionally, members of the Ice Watch were Marines of the 7th Company, charged with their vigilance by former Chapter Master Reborae. As internal debates about the importance of the Chapter's past arose, the Lion's High Command determined that Companies should exchange squads with the 7th for regular tours of duty, thereby solidifying the Chapter's unity. Currently, the practice has fallen out of favor, with only half of the Companies sending squads to the 7th with any regularity. The Ice Watch? You should maybe explain more of what they are. A large agrarian world, Lux Demum maintains a large population and a relatively low level of technology. The planetary government is feudal, with a complex and ever-shifting internal political landscape. All this is overseen directly by the Chapter Master and his Council, who typically take a hands-off approach to governing, intervening only when the Great Houses threaten war on one another. After the treachery of Planetary Governor Ilio brought about the loss of Nox Termina, the Lions developed an inherent mistrust of any man that could wield so much power, and determined that a Marine’s superior mental and spiritual discipline made them far more suited to govern. With what results? In 737.M41, the Lions held their annual Grand Tournament on Lux Demum. Always a time of great anticipation for both the populace and the Lions themselves, this year was especially so, with many promising recruits rising from the world’s lower castes. Normally a time of celebration and revelry, this tournament was overshadowed by an unspoken tension, the usually good-natured boasts and jests devolving into tavern brawls. Tensions came to a head in the final bout of the tournament, which pitted Vito Artorius, a shoemaker’s son, against Lucian Vir, second son of the powerful Duke Vir. Under the watchful eyes of the Lion’s High Command, the boys fought on for hours, each giving their utmost, both refusing to yield the glory victory would bring. Finally, young Vir drove Artorius to his knees, demanding that he yield. He picked up Artorius’ blade, to deliver it and his own to Chapter Master Renato, symbolizing Vir’s victory and submission. As Vir turned his back, Artorius rose to his feet and, bellowing like an enraged bull, charged into the unprepared Vir. Artorius lifted Vir, armor and all, high above his head and hurled him to the ground, rendering Vir unconscious. Artorius offered Renato the blades, and was crowned with the Champion’s Laurel. Later, at the Initiate’s Feast, Vir was also made an initiate by Chapter Master Renato, who praised Vir’s prowess while admonishing him for turning his back on a living foe. The outcry from the lower castes was instantaneous. They saw only political favoritism: the political system would never allow the son of a noble to be beaten by a commoner. Captain Balint of the 6th company, himself a product of humble beginnings, secretly shared the crowds’ concerns, but did his best to calm the multitude, which threatened to become a mob. Captain Aculeo of the 8th, who had been loudly decrying the outcome of the tournament as a black mark on the Chapter’s honor, continued to voice his opinion. “Do you see, Brother,” he said, smirking at Aculeo, “what comes of pandering to the rabble? Now they grow so bold as to question our Master!” Aculeo strode into the crowd and seized one of the multitude by the throat. “The Sheep bleat at their Shepherd – perhaps a demonstration is required to remind them of the natural order?” Fearing for the safety of the crowd, Captain Balint sprang forward, striking Aculeo in full view of the crowd. The multitude erupted – their heroes were brawling in the dust like children! Anarchy swept the cities, and by the time the Lions had restored order, weeks of rioting had claimed the lives of thousands. I hear paragraph breaks are cool. Try them some time. Dialogue is incredibly rare in IAs (with good reason), and I'm not sure it's necessary here. This whole thing really seems like it would make more sense as a sidebar. Believing that the breaking of dawn heralds their victory, it is unsurprising that the Lions will take to the field as close to sunrise as possible. The Chapter’s records are filled with battles that seemed all but lost in the black of night, only to have daybreak renew the fervor of the Lions, carrying them to victory. Conversely, they prefer to avoid night fighting when they can, and some of the Chapter’s worst defeats have come after nightfall. This seems to come out of nowhere. Introduce it a little more gradually. Indeed, throughout the IA, you launch into things without leading up to them or introducing them properly. Might want to work on that. “Brothers, hear me! Be not divided in your fellowship with one another; be of one mind and one spirit. We have learned from the faults of our forbearers, those who readily put their faith in outsiders and paid dearly for their weakness. We alone will recover our lost history! We alone will steel ourselves for battle! We alone will prove ourselves worthy, that the Emperor’s Holy Light may shine on us once more.” – Grand Chaplain Iaccus Monitio Your boys are a bit longwinded. Personally, I find the best quotes are short, punchy, and focused on a particular point. ”Do not trouble me with your mewling about the past. Concern yourself with the war tomorrow will bring. How will you wield your sword with your hands in the rubble?” – Captain Ulixies Bucinum, 10th Company Nice. Very nice. "Hear me roar!” – shouted by each Lion as they close upon the enemy. Are they woman? * * * Pretty good. I like it. You need to work on the cohesion of your presentation, though - it can seem a little disjointed in spots, and you sometimes launch into things without actually explaining what they are. I think you should give them a little bit more prior history, and that it also might be worth talking a little more about how they've dealt with the loss of their history. I strongly recommend taking out the "Taming of Fastosus" section (or moving it to a sidebar) - right now it breaks the flow of the IA more than it educates. I'm having trouble focusing right now - I'll try and get back to you with more useful advice at some point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2774782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega Striker Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Nice work. It seems that others have beaten me to the punch, but this IA is really good. I look forward to working with your chapter in the Liber Campaign. Keep your faith, brother. Omega Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211398-ia-lions-of-the-dawn/page/2/#findComment-2779150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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