The lowly melta bomb

[Algesan]

I've been wondering about this as I've been scraping up points and fiddling with lists. If I need AT capability than I have several options as a SoB army: Inferno pistols for Canoness/Seraphim, Eviscerators on Cannoness/VSS, maybe a combimelta on VSS and finally, losing a flamer for a melta in the various squads.

 

Everything except buying a melta bomb. Not great for a solo Canoness perhaps (unless I can buy several), but it does give 8+2d6 AT capability for all squads if they assault a vehicle. Maybe not as good as shooting them at a distance, but my Sister squads can keep their flamer and have a good chance to kill any vehicle if they do assault for a mere 1 point extra. If a squad does get tank shocked, the meltabomb can be used in a Death or Glory attempt.

 

It might be a silly little idea, but I dislike having to give up a squad flamer or paying tons of points for AT capability that I can now get at a fraction of the cost with a meltabomb. The downside being I have to assault, the upside being that I don't have to shoot the entire squad of bolters and heavy flamer at a Land Raider just to allow one melta a chance to glance on it for a 1/36 chance of a kill if I hit it. Oh, if I get closer, I can have a lot better odds of killing it, but if I'm that close, I can move up and assault it. Another bonus, if I'm not counter assaulted, I'll get to shoot again next phase. In both cases, I don't waste a shooting phase hosing a tank down with bullets and flames that cannot penetrate.

 

So, other than it might take me an extra turn to use, what are the downsides I'm missing to this?

[Chengar Qordath]

I've never been that impressed by the melta bomb; it's a single attack instead of the usual three attacks for the Sgt-equivalent on the charge, and you'll almost always be hitting on a 4+ at best, or a 6+ at worst. Shooting attacks usually have an easier time hitting, and I would have have three attacks with an eviscerator than one with a meltabomb. They can be useful for Death or Glory since you only get one attack, but a Meltagun is better thanks to AP 1.

 

Also, when it comes to wasting shooting, if you're going to assault a vehicle then your shooting will be going to waste anyway since you can't shoot one unit, then assault a different one. So, you can fire a pair of meltas, and have the bolt weapons go to waste ... or you can have your bolt/flame weapons go to waste, then charge with meltabombs.

 

You seem to have mixed a few things up when it comes to point cost and availability; meltabombs cost significantly more than one point, and have somewhat limited availability (VSSs, HQs, and Dominions, and Seraphim only).

[Algesan]

10 girl squad with HF/melta for flexibility. Exchange for HF/Flamer + melta bomb on VSS. 1 point difference in cost.

 

I'm still digging, but I don't see where having any kind of grenade (frag, krak, melta) limits you to just one of them, I may have missed something, but if I pay for grenade X for a model, it looks like it has as many as it can use in a game since I don't see any "unit with grenade X can only use it once in a battle" rule. It specifically doesn't say (like the IG demolition charge, another throw and explode weapon), "one shot only".

 

I cannot find an AP listed for a meltabomb (only the STR 8 common to all the melta class weapons is listed in Assaulting Vehicles), so it would be arguable that it has the AP1 of all the rest of the weapons with the name "melta" in their description, especially since it is a specific AT grenade. Only the inferno pistol, classed as a melta weapon, does not have AP1 and isn't called a "melta pistol".

 

Yep, I forgot that about assulting. In fact, if I'm going to assault, I cannot use any of the rapid fire weapons (annoying that it isn't shooting the rapid fire weapons twice, simply shooting them at all kills the ability to assault). I can use the flamers though (and a melta if I'm packing one) plus any pistols.

 

Even with all this, the one thing I'm looking at, unless I find the rule that says buying grenade X gives you exactly one grenade X, is that the eviscerator costs 5x what a meltabomb costs and does have a an edge in probability over when you get the third swing. In a "Death or Glory" event, the meltabomb has a bit more than twice the chance. (Oops: Note that I used a Land Raider for the target vehicle when I was doing my math.)

 

Okay, so it looks like decent cheap alternative against Land Raider spam that has an ~9% less chance to kill (19.4% vs 27.8%) on an unmoving target if I wanted to have my units have more anti-troop firepower with reduced AT capability. Unless I find that rule that says paying for grenades means only 1 grenade.

 

Thanks for the response.

[maturin]

I don't think that Chengar Qordath means 1 attack ever with a particular grenade - but 1 attack per turn, which is still a significant liability.

[Obliterator]

Personally I like meltabombs, but I haven't considered giving all my troops one. As been stated in the previous posts, the one shot is a liability, and when you consider the vehicles that are within charge range of your Sisters squads, they most of the time will have moved at least 6" to deliver something nasty. So that's 1 melta shot at a 4+ or 6+ after you basically lost shooting for at least 8 Sisters (bolters and flamers are worthless against most vehicles, and you need to be shooting that vehicle to assault it instead of thinning out another softer target).

I do however use meltabombs on my jumppack Canoness when she isn't using the Eviscarator. At 18", she's been known to pop a vehicle on turn 1 when the deployment is right. Most of the time however, you're better off with the Eviscarator for number of attack.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't think that Chengar Qordath means 1 attack ever with a particular grenade - but 1 attack per turn, which is still a significant liability.

Indeed.

 

Generally speaking, three attacks per turn from an eviscerator will do a better job at busting vehicles, especially since you hit 90% of non-walker vehicles on rear armor 10 (so extra attacks are a lot more important than a couple points of strength). eviscerators are even better against walkers; hitting based on WS with an eviscerator is a lot better than only being able to hit on 6+ with a meltabomb even before factoring in the extra attacks. Then there's the possibility of using Hand the Emperor to bump the eviscerator up to Strength 8, at which point the eviscerator is equal to the meltabomb statwise, except they have 2-3 times as many attacks per round.

 

Also, one can't ignore the fact that, while a meltabomb is useless against anything that isn't a vehicle, the eviscerator is essentially a chainfist. Sisters generally want to avoid melee, but having a couple of Strength 6 armor-ignoring hits can do a lot to even the odds. An extra layer of protection against infantry, ICs, and MCs can be very nice to have.

 

10 girl squad with HF/melta for flexibility. Exchange for HF/Flamer + melta bomb on VSS. 1 point difference in cost.

I see. I've never really cared for the HF/melta squad; flexibility is certainly nice, but if you really want to hunt vehicles a lone meltagun is not enough to get the job done reliably (and a lone heavy flamer won't do enough damage to most infantry). Of course, some people who field HF/melta add in a combi-weapon to give the squad a bit more special weapon firepower.

 

I cannot find an AP listed for a meltabomb (only the STR 8 common to all the melta class weapons is listed in Assaulting Vehicles), so it would be arguable that it has the AP1 of all the rest of the weapons with the name "melta" in their description, especially since it is a specific AT grenade. Only the inferno pistol, classed as a melta weapon, does not have AP1 and isn't called a "melta pistol".

Meltabombs are melee weapons, so they don't have an AP value. They do not get +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table, because there are absolutely no rules that say they do. You don't get to make assumptions when it comes to the rules of 40k; if it's not explicitly spelled out in the text, then it doesn't exist. Do the rules say meltabombs get +1 on the vehicle damage table? No. Ergo, they do not.

 

Okay, so it looks like decent cheap alternative against Land Raider spam that has an ~9% less chance to kill (19.4% vs 27.8%) on an unmoving target if I wanted to have my units have more anti-troop firepower with reduced AT capability.

If you ever run into an unmoving Land Raider that has not been immobolized by a previous attack, then your opponent is doing something very, very wrong. I've never seen a Raider move less than 6", and the full 12" is fairly common, especially when they haven't dropped off their cargo yet (And killing a Raider after it deploys its cargo is like shutting the barn door after all the grox have gotten out).

[WarriorFish]

I'm with Chengar, MBs are only really useful as backups and points fillers. With a single attack they're not something you can look to for reliable AT, especially when taken in SoB squads where the supporting Kraks get expensive quick.

[Uncle Mel]

I could make a lengthy post about the pros and cons of meltabombs... but Chengar Qordath said everything I could tell you. What it comes down to is "Do you have 5 points to spare after you got everything you want?" I usually fill in models I want, then wargear, not the other way around.

[ArmouredWing]

When it comes to meltabombs there's only one place I tend to use them and that's with a flying canoness equipped with IP & BW. Bear in mind that my jump canoness tends to be the one place that I splurge points (Canoness+ JP, BW, IP, CoSA, Rosarius, frags, meltabombs & bionics). It's the one place that I like to have a fluffy hero type that can deal with allcomers and to be able to do that I need the MB's so that the likes of LR's are vulnerable to her CC attacks in the event that the IP fails (and it does, often).

 

In terms of other unit's it's not a problem, as a standard my vets are always equipped with eviscerators. This was initially because I was scared to death of facing ironclads on the table but over the couple of years I've run with these I've found them to be invaluable when they get caught up in CC with high T units/MCs/characters and because I run large footslogging squads I've got loads of ablative wounds to keep the vets safe until their time to strike.

 

So, MB's are a good backup option for the odd squad leader or heroine that need a little extra oomph, but they're a poor option for each and every squad leader.

[Algesan]

Generally speaking, three attacks per turn from an eviscerator will do a better job at busting vehicles, especially since you hit 90% of non-walker vehicles on rear armor 10 (so extra attacks are a lot more important than a couple points of strength). eviscerators are even better against walkers; hitting based on WS with an eviscerator is a lot better than only being able to hit on 6+ with a meltabomb even before factoring in the extra attacks. Then there's the possibility of using Hand the Emperor to bump the eviscerator up to Strength 8, at which point the eviscerator is equal to the meltabomb statwise, except they have 2-3 times as many attacks per round.

 

I agree with you that an eviscerator would be a better option for HTH if we are just doing the % to kill and can be used on troops as well as vehicles. A meltabomb has 19.4% chance for a kill on an unmoving LR, an eviscerator has a 9.3% chance which with 3 attacks translates to a 27.8% chance for a kill on an unmovingLR.

 

 

As long as I'm doing percentages here:

Meltagun > 1/2 range 7.4% chance

Meltagun < 1/2 range 21% chance

 

As you noted, for most vehicles, the chance to kill in an assault drops drastically if the vehicle is moving while for the majority of vehicles shooting remains unaffected.

 

Also, one can't ignore the fact that, while a meltabomb is useless against anything that isn't a vehicle, the eviscerator is essentially a chainfist. Sisters generally want to avoid melee, but having a couple of Strength 6 armor-ignoring hits can do a lot to even the odds. An extra layer of protection against infantry, ICs, and MCs can be very nice to have.

 

Depends on what you are fighting, it is a nice deterrent against smaller costlier squads, but against horde based armies it is just two out of the herd. It helps, but not as much.

 

10 girl squad with HF/melta for flexibility. Exchange for HF/Flamer + melta bomb on VSS. 1 point difference in cost.

I see. I've never really cared for the HF/melta squad; flexibility is certainly nice, but if you really want to hunt vehicles a lone meltagun is not enough to get the job done reliably (and a lone heavy flamer won't do enough damage to most infantry). Of course, some people who field HF/melta add in a combi-weapon to give the squad a bit more special weapon firepower.

 

Combi or Brazier is what I've seen in a lot of builds with HF/melta. I just really don't like a pistol range attack for my AT flexibility that has less than a 1% better chance of getting the kill than a meltabomb. As you say, one meltagun isn't going to get it. Well, okay, it is nice to have some ranged AT amd most movement by the target doesn't hurt shooting. but I don't like losing the flamer.

 

I cannot find an AP listed for a meltabomb (only the STR 8 common to all the melta class weapons is listed in Assaulting Vehicles), so it would be arguable that it has the AP1 of all the rest of the weapons with the name "melta" in their description, especially since it is a specific AT grenade. Only the inferno pistol, classed as a melta weapon, does not have AP1 and isn't called a "melta pistol".

Meltabombs are melee weapons, so they don't have an AP value. They do not get +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table, because there are absolutely no rules that say they do. You don't get to make assumptions when it comes to the rules of 40k; if it's not explicitly spelled out in the text, then it doesn't exist. Do the rules say meltabombs get +1 on the vehicle damage table? No. Ergo, they do not.

 

Correct. It is not in the RAW. I could argue it either as an "oopsie" or as a play balance decision using "RW fluff", which isn't relevant.

 

Okay, so it looks like decent cheap alternative against Land Raider spam that has an ~9% less chance to kill (19.4% vs 27.8%) on an unmoving target if I wanted to have my units have more anti-troop firepower with reduced AT capability.

If you ever run into an unmoving Land Raider that has not been immobolized by a previous attack, then your opponent is doing something very, very wrong. I've never seen a Raider move less than 6", and the full 12" is fairly common, especially when they haven't dropped off their cargo yet (And killing a Raider after it deploys its cargo is like shutting the barn door after all the grox have gotten out).

 

Unfortunately, the two guys who introduced me to the game tend to be dakka builders with assault being around only for finishing. I'm not sure if a possessed Chaos LR can carry troops, but the ones I've seen manage to keep themselves busy enough pivoting and shooting mostly with only enough movement to keep them out of LOS of most heavy AT.

 

I could make a lengthy post about the pros and cons of meltabombs... but Chengar Qordath said everything I could tell you. What it comes down to is "Do you have 5 points to spare after you got everything you want?" I usually fill in models I want, then wargear, not the other way around.

 

I think we are getting into a few of them. I got started on this from your POV. I like HF/Flamer squads. The combimelta is a bit pricy and I'd prefer to carry an extra one shot flamer along.

 

So I'm sitting there fiddling around with different builds when I realize that if I forget the eviscerator on the Seraphim VSS, I could buy 4 meltabombs and give a BoSL.

 

I'm not trying to make this into a "use the meltabomb always" case, but looking into the "why not use a meltabomb?" side of things. Chengar gives some great reasons as to why not, but if I'm willing to accept lower but more flexible AT capability for a cheaper price that allows me to keep my flamer, then that is a different decision.

[Uncle Mel]

I think we are getting into a few of them. I got started on this from your POV. I like HF/Flamer squads. The combimelta is a bit pricy and I'd prefer to carry an extra one shot flamer along.

 

So I'm sitting there fiddling around with different builds when I realize that if I forget the eviscerator on the Seraphim VSS, I could buy 4 meltabombs and give a BoSL.

 

I'm not trying to make this into a "use the meltabomb always" case, but looking into the "why not use a meltabomb?" side of things. Chengar gives some great reasons as to why not, but if I'm willing to accept lower but more flexible AT capability for a cheaper price that allows me to keep my flamer, then that is a different decision.

 

 

I understand your point, I myself play daemonhunters so I try not to get my GK close, maintaining maximum stormbolter distance. I do employ IST squads though and use them as tankbusters. I could give both my IST squads Mbombs but feel I could spend those points better. It's just a gut feeling but one I can't shake.

 

Mbombs are nice but I feel it remains a long shot in my personal view, like I said though, if iI do have 5 or 10 pts spare, I take them.

[a1elbow]

Correct. It is not in the RAW. I could argue it either as an "oopsie" or as a play balance decision using "RW fluff", which isn't relevant.

 

It's never been in the RAW, for three editions and multiple appearances in various books, so it isn't a mistake. Combat weapons don't get AP, only ranged weapons. Grenades are used in the assault phase against a charged vehicle.

 

As to the numbers, you're leaving out all uses of Hand of the Emperor. Since all attacks are against rear armor (usually 10), ten sisters charging with +2S have a legitimate shot at knocking out a vehicle. And a Evis with Hand has the same Strength and bonus as the grenade.

 

The question here is as much "when are Melta-grenades effective?" as it is "when is a Flamer/HF Sister squad effective?" Those squads are better against infantry (although I think a Flamer doesn't add much to a squad firing a HF and 8 RF Bolters), and so their specialty shooting will be wasted because you're committed to charging a vehicle. If you have a meltagun you still have anti-troop capacity and even if the melta misses/fails, you can charge and go with Hand of the Emperor in a pinch.

 

Also note that if you wreck the vehicle in the shooting phase, another squad has a chance to knock out any troops inside the transport (with the nod to the majority of vehicles in midfield being transports). If you wreck a transport in combat, any troops inside will have ample opportunity to shoot/charge your T3 Sisters.

 

On the other hand, it is your army and the models do come with grenades.

[Algesan]

Correct. It is not in the RAW. I could argue it either as an "oopsie" or as a play balance decision using "RW fluff", which isn't relevant.

 

It's never been in the RAW, for three editions and multiple appearances in various books, so it isn't a mistake. Combat weapons don't get AP, only ranged weapons. Grenades are used in the assault phase against a charged vehicle.

 

As to the numbers, you're leaving out all uses of Hand of the Emperor. Since all attacks are against rear armor (usually 10), ten sisters charging with +2S have a legitimate shot at knocking out a vehicle. And a Evis with Hand has the same Strength and bonus as the grenade.

 

The question here is as much "when are Melta-grenades effective?" as it is "when is a Flamer/HF Sister squad effective?" Those squads are better against infantry (although I think a Flamer doesn't add much to a squad firing a HF and 8 RF Bolters), and so their specialty shooting will be wasted because you're committed to charging a vehicle. If you have a meltagun you still have anti-troop capacity and even if the melta misses/fails, you can charge and go with Hand of the Emperor in a pinch.

 

Also note that if you wreck the vehicle in the shooting phase, another squad has a chance to knock out any troops inside the transport (with the nod to the majority of vehicles in midfield being transports). If you wreck a transport in combat, any troops inside will have ample opportunity to shoot/charge your T3 Sisters.

 

On the other hand, it is your army and the models do come with grenades.

 

Since I tend to be tank shocking and deploying, I have yet to get less than two hits (which would require 1.5 RF bolters to achieve statistically) with a flamer, I find them real useful. Also, I get to hit two units often enough with the flamer templates, especially after I've done some shoving around.

 

I like to use Divine Guidance more than Hand of the Emperor, although you make a valid point since hitting a 10 armor vehicle would be useful that way, but my problem is Land Raiders. Besides, in the battles I've watched with Rhino/Chimera assaults, shots at the side/rear armor weren't that hard to come by after the first turn and RF bolters and flamers can glance them. With Divine Guidance, I make any rolls of 6 into AP1 hits. IOW, against the lesser tanks, I don't _need_ meltabombs as much.

 

Yes, there are lots of downsides to using the meltabombs instead of buying a meltagun to replace the flamer, but the the option to retain the flamer for anti-infantry work and still have some halfway decent AT capability vs Land Raiders in five squads vs one squad (who has better AT with an eviscerator). It will also pop the heck out of the lesser tanks. Recall also that if you block the exit points during the assault, then the models *die* with the vehicle. <shrug> You makes your choice and takes your chances.

[Chengar Qordath]

Yes, there are lots of downsides to using the meltabombs instead of buying a meltagun to replace the flamer, but the the option to retain the flamer for anti-infantry work and still have some halfway decent AT capability vs Land Raiders in five squads vs one squad (who has better AT with an eviscerator). It will also pop the heck out of the lesser tanks. Recall also that if you block the exit points during the assault, then the models *die* with the vehicle. <shrug> You makes your choice and takes your chances.

The problem with meltabombs is that, against a Raider with cargo (and ergo, one that has moved 12") a meltabomb has around a 3% chance of actually killing the Raider. There's taking a chance, and then there's desperately hoping for blind luck. Trying to kill any vehicle in an assault after it has moved 12" isn't going to work out too well; when 5/6 attacks miss, you just can't kill reliably.

 

By contrast, a lone meltagun has just under a 20% chance to score a kill. Also, as several people have mentioned, a dedicated tank-hunting unit really ought to have more than one melta in it, either a combi-melta on the VSS, or just 2x melta (or both, if you really want to kill that Raider).

[a1elbow]

Since I tend to be tank shocking and deploying, I have yet to get less than two hits (which would require 1.5 RF bolters to achieve statistically) with a flamer, I find them real useful. Also, I get to hit two units often enough with the flamer templates, especially after I've done some shoving around.

 

I like to use Divine Guidance more than Hand of the Emperor, although you make a valid point since hitting a 10 armor vehicle would be useful that way, but my problem is Land Raiders. Besides, in the battles I've watched with Rhino/Chimera assaults, shots at the side/rear armor weren't that hard to come by after the first turn and RF bolters and flamers can glance them. With Divine Guidance, I make any rolls of 6 into AP1 hits. IOW, against the lesser tanks, I don't _need_ meltabombs as much.

 

Yes, there are lots of downsides to using the meltabombs instead of buying a meltagun to replace the flamer, but the the option to retain the flamer for anti-infantry work and still have some halfway decent AT capability vs Land Raiders in five squads vs one squad (who has better AT with an eviscerator). It will also pop the heck out of the lesser tanks. Recall also that if you block the exit points during the assault, then the models *die* with the vehicle. <shrug> You makes your choice and takes your chances.

 

Some people don't play where DG can be used against vehicles with shooting because all the wording in the description is "wound" and never "penetrate." I think it can go both ways, but they've never cleared it up so I personally play that DG is only usable against models with T_.

 

I don't know what to say really about Meltabombs. You want to use them, go use them.