Which Dex makes the better Demi Co.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

1/3/1/1 Simple, plain, balanced. But, Which Codex(gk/sOb included) do you think, and why, makes the most competive(sp) Half Company power armored based battle force...

 

lets keep it between 1500-1850, pretty rough to get 50 PAGK for less than 1850, but it can be done

[Xeonic]

I'd go with Codex Space Marines personally, ATSKNF, combat tactics, use your assault squad as speeders or bikes(both fluffy, mind you) and you're golden.

Probably Blood Angels would be more "competitive" given that you could slip in a few IC sang priests to give yourself FnP in key squads(FnP devastators are scary!).

 

I'm not sure if gray knights are even organized into companies, to be honest. I'm certain SoB aren't. Wolves don't use normalized codex companies, do they?

Why is this even a question, really? :)

 

I'll throw up a hypothetical:

Captain, Relic Blade, Combi-Melta, Digital Weapons, Command Squad with 4x plasma gun, Rhino - 360

 

Dreadnought with 2xTLAC - 125

 

Tactical Squad(10x), Power Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Rhino - 245

Tactical Squad(10x), Power Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Rhino - 245

Tactical Squad(10x), Power Fist, Plasma Cannon, Meltagun, Rhino - 240

 

1x Attack Bike, MM - 50

2x Attack Bike, MM - 100

2x Attack Bike, MM - 100

 

Devastator Squad(10x), Lascannon, 3x ML, Rhino - 285

 

- 1750

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Why is this even a question, really? :)

would it be a better question to ask, "if" the "demicompany" army build, only applies to the C:SM? or can other Codice do it better than the C:SM? personally, i've been thinking that it's possible that maybe, just maybe that a semi pure death guard Demi would much more difficult to displace, than say, a 1/3/1/1 build using say the C:BT or C:DA

[Jackelope King]

First of all, a demi-company would be a pretty weak choice on the field. Just need to get it out there that it's not really competitive.

 

As for your question, all the Codicies at the moment are kinda weak in this regard. Blood Angels would probably be the best bet. Just take the Jump Packs off of 3 assault squads and stick them in a reduced-cost Rhino, leave Jump Packs on one squad. Their Devs aren't as good as Long Fangs, but at least they're not overcosted like Codex: Space Marines. The big problem here is that your "Tactical Squads" don't get bolters (because Blood Angels transports are too damn expensive to take in numbers unless they're for jump-pack-less Assault Squads), but whatchya gonna do?

 

Space Wolves would arguably be better if Skyclaws weren't terrible. But otherwise your only option is to create a unit almost as expensive as Vanguard Veterans and give Wolf Guard Jump Packs at 25 points per model. Yeah, no. Unless you don't mind having your "Assault Marines" without Jump Packs, in which case Wolf Guard are fair at it. The big upside here is that Gray Hunters are pretty generalist. Their downside compared to Codex: Space Marines Tactical Squads is that they're bad at holding midfield. Double meltagun Rhino Bunkers just don't compare to Multi-Melta Rhino Bunkers.

 

Codex: Space Marines can do it, but both Assault Squads and Devastators are in bad shape. Assault Squads only threaten light infantry, and Devastators are severely over-costed.

 

Black Templar Assault Squads are really overcosted, and don't get Krak Grenades by default. Weapon upgrades are cheaper, but each model is really pricey. And they don't benefit from Righteous Zeal, so they don't get a speed boost from being shot at. Real dud unit all around. Plus no Devastators.

 

Dark Angels.... just a big "eh" all around. Transports are more expensive, so harder to get those Tactical Squads around. Ravenwing ain't bad, and Deathwing is at least unique, but it's really all they've got going for them.

 

So long story short, nobody really does it well.

[Xeonic]

The devastators are the weak link really, as assault marines can be fielded in speeders or bikes as needed(according to fluff). I think my list above is a fairly decent one, and for competitive play the only real change I'd want to make is to drop the devastators for another pair of Rifledreads.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

remember that, like the Assault options, that the 10 marines, in Heavy support, can be fielded in "other" formats.

i don't have a solid piece to back this up, but i know/thought that predator/whirlwinds/vinds, had SM crews of 3. a pilot, co pilot and gunner, maybe even a 4th, as in a loader, thou idk about that, but to that end, i would say that it would fit, say if you took A tank, and ran a 7 man devasator squad, say with 3 laser cannons, or Plasma cannons. you could then use the tank to hide them as well.

[Xeonic]

I'll give the Death Guard list a shot here:

 

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Nurgle's Rot, Wings - 165

 

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 335

 

10x Raptor, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun, Champ with Powerfist - 310

 

5x Havok, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Autocannon - 165

5x Havoc, Mark of Chaos Glory, 2x Autocannon - 125

 

-1750

 

Second set of Havocs with chaos glory irritates me, but that was when I ran out of points. :)

[Warprat]

As for your question, all the Codicies at the moment are kinda weak in this regard. Blood Angels would probably be the best bet. Just take the Jump Packs off of 3 assault squads and stick them in a reduced-cost Rhino, leave Jump Packs on one squad. Their Devs aren't as good as Long Fangs, but at least they're not overcosted like Codex: Space Marines. The big problem here is that your "Tactical Squads" don't get bolters (because Blood Angels transports are too damn expensive to take in numbers unless they're for jump-pack-less Assault Squads), but whatchya gonna do?

 

I disagree with the reduced Rhino comment. Yes, removing the packs is only 20pts, vs the 35pt discount, but there are other things to consider. In the converson from Tac to Assault you lose the ability to take a free hvy weapon and a free special. That's about 15pts right there. The loss of bolters is a wash, because you gain an extra attack with the close combat weapons.

 

Blood Angel Tactical squads are the same price as Vanilla marines, but you gain Red Thirst on a 1 in 6 vs. Combat Tactics for all of the Vanillas. The Blood Angel Rhinos are faster, but they cost more, and you don't always want to move full out. Slight advantage Vanillas.

 

The Assault squads are also pretty much the same, except the Blood Angels get a Hand Flamer option, DoA, the chance to get Red Thirst and count as Troops. But, the Vanillas have Combat Tactics, which does work well with Assaults, because they have a bigger retreat move. Advantage to the Blood Angels here.

 

Finally the Devestators, which are cheaper for the Blood Angels, and gain Red Thirst on a 1 in 6. Vs the Combat Tactics of the Vanillas, which could be pretty good, in the right circumstances. Advantage Blood Angels.

 

Almost forgot the HQ! Blood Angel leaders are more assaulty, vs Vanilla that are more overall army changing. Vanilla Captain lets you take Bikes as Troops, and leaders can fit in Drop Pods. You can gain some significant advantatages with each codex, but Vanilla is more flexable. Advantage Vanilla.

 

 

The extras, with the few points you have left, after buying the Demi Company. Blood Angel vehicles are faster and more shooty, but cost a little bit more. Vanilla Drop Pods and Land Raiders have slightly better carrying capacity. Vanillas get Legion of the Damned, Thunderfire and Ironclad. Blood Angels have Dreadnought Librarians, Baal Pedators, Death Company. Vanilla scouts have hellfire shells and the Land Speeder Storm.

 

The kicker is that Blood Angels also have Sanguary Priests which are fairly expensive, but give furious charge and feel no pain, but if you take them with a transport, you can't transport the full squad. Which is not a problem, should you prefer Razorbacks, but is if you want Rhinos. Personally, I perfer Rhinos... but Advantage Blood Angels if you use them right.

 

 

So Blood Angels are a better Demi Company overall, but Vanilla could be better with the right HQ or additional unit.

 

Warprat ;)

[Brother_Fatiswon]

I'll give the Death Guard list a shot here:

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Nurgle's Rot, Wings - 165

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 335

10x Raptor, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun, Champ with Powerfist - 310

5x Havok, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Autocannon - 165

5x Havoc, Mark of Chaos Glory, 2x Autocannon - 125

-1750

Second set of Havocs with chaos glory irritates me, but that was when I ran out of points. :lol:

yup, I'd trade out the Daemon punk (sry had2) for a Lord with a PF, and that would free up enough points to style the havoks, both with MoN and maybe ML all around, oh, and i'd trade out the Rapotr's mg for Flamers, but yeah, i would hate to have to kill it if i was sitting across from it. (but i'd have fun doing it :devil:

 

@Warprat, Cheers! mate, good points all around, got me thinking, while not fluffy per say, but thinking about running a flip of the old cloth. bikes for tacticals (full of course, Rhino assault squad, plus maybe a x4 MM drop pod devastator squad..

[Warprat]

I'll give the Death Guard list a shot here:

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Nurgle's Rot, Wings - 165

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Melta, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 325

10x Plague Marines, 2x Plasma, Champ with Powerfist, Rhino - 335

10x Raptor, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun, Champ with Powerfist - 310

5x Havok, Mark of Nurgle, 2x Autocannon - 165

5x Havoc, Mark of Chaos Glory, 2x Autocannon - 125

-1750

Second set of Havocs with chaos glory irritates me, but that was when I ran out of points. :lol:

yup, I'd trade out the Daemon punk (sry had2) for a Lord with a PF, and that would free up enough points to style the havoks, both with MoN and maybe ML all around, oh, and i'd trade out the Rapotr's mg for Flamers, but yeah, i would hate to have to kill it if i was sitting across from it. (but i'd have fun doing it :devil:

 

@Warprat, Cheers! mate, good points all around, got me thinking, while not fluffy per say, but thinking about running a flip of the old cloth. bikes for tacticals (full of course, Rhino assault squad, plus maybe a x4 MM drop pod devastator squad..

 

 

That's quite a flip, love the Drop Pod Devs!

 

 

Never thought about Chaos, but you could make a great Demi-Company out of them too. The Demi-Company makes the perfect Fluff Water list, so good on you for bringing them up and giving them some consideration. Would love to see them be somewhat competative!

 

 

My attempt:

 

Demi-Company 1850

 

HQ:

 

Sicarius 200pts

 

 

ELITES:

 

Dreadnought 125

2X TL Assault cannon

 

 

TROOPS:

 

Tactical Squad 245

Combi plasma, Plasma Gun, Plasma cannon, melta bombs

Rhino, HK missile

 

Tactica Squad 235

Combi flamer, flamer, plasma cannon, melta bombs

Rhino, HK missile

 

Tactical squad 250

Combi Melta, melta, plasma cannon, melta bombs

Drop pod with deathwind

 

Scout squad 185

Missile launcher, combi-melta, power fist, melta bombs 4 CCW, 4 sniper

 

 

ASSAULT

 

Assault Squad 265

3x plasma pistol, thunderhammer

 

Land Speeder Storm 65

Multi-melta

 

 

HEAVY

 

Devestators 275

4x ML

Rhino, HK missile

 

 

The army can deploy forwards with the Scouts, the Drop Pod (with Sic) and one of the Tacticals as scouts. Or it can deploy in depth and combat squad using Sic's leadership of 10. The missiles and ac pop the transports, then the plasma cannons pop the passengers. Meltas can be used against land raiders.

[KhorneHunter57x]

My thought on the Demi-Company is that although you have a solid core of Tactical squads, generally there are better assaulty and fire-support units than Assault and Devastator squads. I think that restricting yourself to HQ-Tac-Tac-Tac-Assault-Dev+support weakens the competitiveness of the build, but it is fluffy. Personally, I would rather field 5 Tactical squads than 3 Tacs and one each of Assault and Devastator.

remember that, like the Assault options, that the 10 marines, in Heavy support, can be fielded in "other" formats.

i don't have a solid piece to back this up, but i know/thought that predator/whirlwinds/vinds, had SM crews of 3. a pilot, co pilot and gunner, maybe even a 4th, as in a loader, thou idk about that, but to that end, i would say that it would fit, say if you took A tank, and ran a 7 man devasator squad, say with 3 laser cannons, or Plasma cannons. you could then use the tank to hide them as well.

I believe that Rhino/Predator/Land Raider/etc. crews come from the Armory, and are technically not part of any Company.

 

Here is how I would do an 1850 point Demi-Company from Codex: Space Marines:

Captain with Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, Meltabombs - 165

Chaplain with Meltabombs - 105

10 Tacticals with Plasma Pistol, Meltabombs, Plasma Gun, Lascannon. Rhino with H-K - 255

10 Tacticals with Plasma Pistol, Meltabombs, Plasma Gun, Lascannon. Rhino with H-K - 255

10 Tacticals with Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Meltagun, Multi-Melta. Rhino with H-K - 255

10 Assault Marines with Thunder Hammer. No Packs but Rhino with H-K - 230

10 Devastators with Meltabombs, 4 Missile Launchers - 235

Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons - 85

Land Raider with Extra Armor - 265

 

Both HQs would ride in the Raider with the Assault Marines.

[Blitzkreig]

Space Wolves, as just about any unit combination can constitute a demi-company.

 

Take a wolf lord, 2 units of Wolf Guard, 1 unit of wolf scouts, 3 units of grey hunters, 2 units of blood claws and 2-3 units of long fangs (probably over 1850 but I can't be bothered writing a list atm). Of course, if you are talking about using all codicies to represent the standard marine company this wouldn't work (and honestly I think the list would be lacking as you wouldn't be able to use scouts or terminators) but at least with the Space Wolf codex the only limit on what can be in your company is special characters.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

@ Blitzkreig thank you for your input blitz, No list is needed or requested. Using wolves would be fun for sure, and i can see how they would have a leg up on C:SM<pun intended> Really looking for "which one" and "how come? or Why?"

We all know that bladed weapons cut, but claymores (BT?) wield differently then say a katana (WhiteScars?) or a machete (Fleshtearer?) and i'd like to extend a thank you to all who have posted so far. and here's to more and more input.

i know this topic so far has kicked a few thoughts into my scopes.

[Blitzkreig]

Tell ya what, because I am completely bored I will write a 2000 SW list anyway :D.

 

Note that this list includes a lot of Drop Pods, because I love Drop Pods, but they are interchangable with Rhino's.

 

HQ:

Wolf Lord

- Frost Blade

- Melta Bombs

- Wolftooth Necklace

- Belt of Russ

- Saga of the Bear

200 Points (S5 I5 eternal warrior with a 4+ Invulnerable and Meltabombs for good measure)

 

ELITES:

Wolf Guard Pack

- 5 Wolf Guard with Power Weapons

- 4 Standard Wolf Guard

- 1 Wolf Guard with Power Fist

- Drop Pod

285 Points (5 Guys with Power Weapons and 4 extras for ablative wounds, Power Fist Wolf Guard goes to the scouts as a Pack Leader, these guys can hang with the Wolf Lord)

 

Wolf Scout Pack

- 1 Wolf Scouts with Mark of the Wulfen

- 2 Wolf Scouts with Power Weapons

- 4 Standard Wolf Scouts

150 Points

 

TROOPS:

Grey Hunter Pack

- 2 Grey Hunters with Meltaguns

- 8 Standard Grey Hunters

- Drop Pod

190 Points (I prefer shooty Grey Hunters to the assault based squads, simply due to the fact that they are going to be holding objectives and I want them to be a supportive as possible)

 

Grey Hunter Pack

- 2 Grey Hunters with Meltaguns

- 8 Standard Grey Hunters

- Drop Pod

190 Points

 

Grey Hunter Pack

- 2 Grey Hunters with Meltaguns

- 8 Standard Grey Hunters

- Drop Pod

190 Points

 

Grey Hunter Pack

- 2 Grey Hunters with Meltaguns

- 8 Standard Grey Hunters

- Drop Pod

190 Points

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Long Fang Pack

- Long Fang Pack Leader

- 2 Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons

- 2 Long Fangs with Lascannons

165 Points (I prefer Plasma Cannons and Lascannons to the more popular Missile Launchers, but its just personal preference)

 

Long Fang Pack

- Long Fang Pack Leader

- 2 Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons

- 2 Long Fangs with Lascannons

165 Points

 

Long Fang Pack

- Long Fang Pack Leader

- 2 Long Fangs with Plasma Cannons

- 2 Long Fangs with Lascannons

165 Points

 

TOTAL: 1890, so you have 4 scoring units, 3 heavy firepower units (which can bust up tanks and TEQ excellently at range) and 2 units with some serious close combat power with 110 Points to play with when bringing it up to 2000... and guess what? That is actually a fairly weak list in comparison to some of the more power-gamey lists.

 

It may not be the type of thing you are looking for (no Blood Claws/Skyclaws/Swiftclaws) but it represents a Space Wolves great company very well. The solid core of hardened warriors (Grey Hunters) supported by the old, reliable veterans (Long Fangs) with a capable commander and his elite bodyguard (Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard respectively) and of course, you can't forget the Wolf Scouts, who, well, wait till you see the look on the opponents face when they realise that Wolf Scouts are actually useful.

[Grey Mage]

1/3/1/1 Simple, plain, balanced. But, Which Codex(gk/sOb included) do you think, and why, makes the most competive(sp) Half Company power armored based battle force...

 

lets keep it between 1500-1850, pretty rough to get 50 PAGK for less than 1850, but it can be done

My vote: C:BA.

 

Why? It ends up with 4 scoring units instead of 3, and your devastators are cheaper. In return you pay a little more for your rhinos/razorbacks, but frankly as fast vehicles I think its worth the points.

 

Also important, if youd rather have a Chaplain or a Librarian leading your force you can still get a command squad equivilant, wich is really nice.

 

I dont think SW can build a "demi-company' as frankly, its still just a big chunk of a great company no matter how you slice it.

 

C:SM suffers from a lack of options for their assault squads, and pay a premium for their devastators. Of course, they do get combat-tactics, wich is powerful, or something else with a special captain. This could be really nice.

 

Hrmm... 1850 Demi-company from C:BA.

 

Librarian- Jump Pack-125 Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage

Honor Gaurd- Jump Packs Stormshield, Powerweapon, Meltagun, Banner- 225pts.

 

Tactical Squad- ML, PG, PF, Rhino- 255pts.

Tactical Squad- ML, PG, PF, Rhino- 255pts.

Tactical Squad- MG, MM, PF, Rhino- 250pts.

Assault Squad- 2xMG, PF- 235pts.

 

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

Devastators- 2xML, 2xLC, Las/Plas RB- 330pts.

Whirlwind- 90pts.

1850pts.

 

Is how Id do it offhand.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Black Templar Assault Squads are really overcosted... Plus no Devastators.

Dark Angels.... just a big "eh" all around.

is this pretty much the brass tax on both of these Codices, left behind like an old pair of combat boots? Sure seems like with some resource allowances, ie a Ven dread (hellfire/mortis) for long range fire support in lew of the absents of devastator squads, and say run 5 Land speeders, for fire support of three 10 man Initiates with mg/pf or flamers, depending on how much melta you bring with the Land speeders?? As for the 1st of his children, our grim and brooding brothers, wouldn't Fearless ravenwing units bring a sharper edge to the blade?

[Xeonic]

yup, I'd trade out the Daemon punk (sry had2) for a Lord with a PF, and that would free up enough points to style the havoks, both with MoN and maybe ML all around, oh, and i'd trade out the Rapotr's mg for Flamers, but yeah, i would hate to have to kill it if i was sitting across from it. (but i'd have fun doing it :lol:

Powerfist lord with MoN and wings actually costs a mere 10pts less than the daemon prince, would be far better to just drop rot to save the points here(just dropping nurgle's rot saves more points than the price difference actually) IMO. I really dislike powerfists on ICs, if you want troop killing power twinclaws is far better and meltabombs are only 5pts. Besides, there's already a load of powerfist in that list.

I wanted Nurgle's Rot on the prince because it fits the theme well. This is a list I wouldn't mind actually playing with on the table though.

 

I prefer the autocannon to the ML, yes the ML can theoretically hurt AV 13+, but the list also has 6 meltaguns and a daemon prince to deal with heavier armor and really needs the transport popping power IMO. Plus autocannons are one of those neat thing that chaos marines carry man portably that nobody else does, which makes them worth taking in my mind.

 

The IW list I cooked up is even better though, methinks:

 

Iron Warriors Warsmith(lord entry) with Daemon Weapon and Wings - 150

 

10x Chaos Space Marines, Champ with Powerfist, 2x Meltagun, Chaos glory, Rhino - 255

10x Chaos Space Marines, Champ with Powerfist, 2x Meltagun, Chaos glory, Rhino - 255

10x Chaos Space Marines, Champ with Powerfist, 2x Flamer, Chaos glory, Rhino - 245

 

10x Iron Warriors Assault Marines(Raptor entry) Champ with Powerfist, 2x Meltagun, Chaos glory - 270

 

9 Havocs, Champ with Powerfist, 4x Autocannon, Chaos Glory - 265

2x Obliterator - 150

2x Obliterator - 150

 

1740, enough for a combi-flamer somewheres. This is actually remarkably close to a normal 1500 IW list of mine, albiet I don't use raptors, or that many havocs. :P

[Koremu]

Combat Tactics really isn't that great now everyone and their dog knows how to counteract it.

 

Codex: Blood Angels makes the best Infantry-on-the-table codex because of FNP

 

The only reasons to use C:SM any more are Bikers as Troops or to use an SC. Otherwise, C:BA is better at everything. Even things the BA have no business being better at, like Devastators.

[chaplain belisarius]

which kind of says that someone went a bit over the top on the BA dex...:)

[Koremu]

No, it says that C:SM is incredibly underpowered.

 

Seriously, all it would take would be an errata giving C:SM a 6" FNP bubble, PotMS on tanks and a few tweaks like fixing devastator costs and assault squad options and it'd be golden.

 

But as it stands there's no point at all using those things in C:SM.

[chaplain belisarius]

ive always found codex marines a bit underwhelming to be honest...:)

[Brother_Fatiswon]

But, Which Codex... do you think, and why, makes the most competive(sp) Half Company

 

last to dismiss the truth simply because, Why nots, and i would never touch that with a ten foot pole, are off topic.