The Catch 22 of the HH novels

[douglas9521]

Hi all,just thought i'd ask if anyone has the same quandry as me?Im loving the HH novels(even the more ropey ones have kept me entertained on a dull skint night!) but they are slowly but surely taking away the mystery and also closing some of my own wee thoughts on what happened.So is anyone else feeling like you wish they had been left unwritten? P.S. Cant wait for the first heretic lol(I'm the worlds first skinflint addict,£4-5 for a fix that lasts about 4 to 5 weeks)

[Gunslinger87]

Not really, nothing can ever stop your imagination going... Id rather have more material (especially HH material which is getting much more care and effort than regular 40K) than less.

 

Also looking 4ward to First Heretic very much ;)

[douglas9521]

Lol,with my limited imagination it doesnt take much ;) Yeah,ADB has been top notch so far so looking forward to getting another primarch fleshed out.Especially one i dislike,its good to see their point of view so you get to understand them.Hoping Angron gets some love but thats where most of my imagination gets started so in a way i hope not.Hopefully Gav Thorpe gets to take the Lion and go with his fence sitting idea(i hope i dont get bared for the heresy of liking GT but i loved Angels of darkness) Kinda an interesting thought for a primarch to be waiting to see which way the wind is blowing before deciding his side.

[Legatus]

Hopefully Gav Thorpe gets to take the Lion and go with his fence sitting idea

He wont. At least not judging from what allegedly is his afterword of the Novel (haven't read it myself):

 

All of which brings me to the end of this Afterword, save for one more shocking revelation. The part most-quoted from Angels of

Darkness is probably:

 

’What was he waiting for?' Boreas asked quietly.

Astelan looked into Boreas’s eyes, read the curiosity that was now there.

'He was waiting to see which side won, of course.'

 

It’s been a source of great interest and amusement to see just how much this has been simultaneously reviled and rejoiced. The

cherished convictions of thousands were shaken by this dubious revelation. It fundamentally sums up the equivocation and secret

agendas of the Dark Angels. But the thing is; I never planned it at all. It just came out as I was writing that scene. I remember it

well, because I stopped dead in my tracks, hands hovering comically over the keyboard, and read it out aloud to myself. Wow, I

thought, that’s really going to get people talking.

So, everything else aside, perhaps that’s the greatest achievement of Angels of Darkness - it even managed to shock me!

 

So, essentially, he mainly did it for shocks. There was no narrative intent behind it.

[douglas9521]

Ah,cheers for that legatus.Hadnt seen that,interesting to read.I can always hope whoever is doing the next angel book takes it in that direction.It would be one hell of a ball to run with.Havent read fallen angels yet so fingers crossed lol.He certainly succeeded in raising eyebrows,in an enigmatic very DA kinda way to.Greatly enjoyed it.Like the way the fallen are not chaotic but more just lost and no where to go feel.Plus makes you wonder what Cyphurs up to?

[Pacific81]

This is why it's sometimes bad to hear words from the mouths of writers/directors/actors etc. It's almost invariably a disappointment, and I normally take pains to avoid doing so. So here, you have possibly the most oft-quoted and discussed line ever from the pages of a BL novel, and it's reduced to something almost meaningless, used just for shock value. Although, fortunately the majority of people who read the book won't read that comment and so the effect it had (which was extremely shocking!) won't be spoilt. Having said that, why does that comment lessen the narrative? Gav's short story in 'Tales of Heresy' follows on from that book, again painting the DA as somewhat ambiguous in their actions.

 

I too liked the 'fence sitting' idea, as I'm sure did a lot of others, simply because more than anything it adds a shade of grey to what so far has been a very 'good vs. evil' recounting of the heresy, with one side mightily smoting* for the goodness of the universe, the other growing spikes and getting bad breath.

 

Having said that, I know of someone who asked Alan Merrett about this specific direction of the DA and how they would develop, and got a roll of the eyes as a reply when they mentioned 'Angels of Darkness'. So, it looks like the follow up to Fallen Angels might well feature a lot more heroically smoting of evil doers from the Lion, and less of actions which might represent, you know, something like an actual character beyond what was seen from the popular 1980's children's cartoon character He-Man. But, I should stress this is only my own opinion, and I know plenty of people who are glad that Gav's original intention isn't being seen through :P

It's also worth to note that Fallen Angels painted the Lion as less than a perfect judge of character when he said:

 

'Here you go, take all my really powerful seige weapons brother' to Peturabo, who was floating around on a black cloud at the time, bag of kittens in hand ready to throw into a nearby river.

 

However, lack of judgement does not equal having a sinister motive, and instead just paints the Lion as being a bit of a plank, which is something which is no-where near as entertaining in narrative terms in my opinion.

 

* i know this isn't a real word, but it seems appropriate :lol:

 

About the OP, douglas I agree with your comments to an extent, part of the Heresy's appeal was it's mystery. But, now the cat is firmly out of the bag, and we have to hope that the writers involved can continue to make a great job of it ! :)

[Captain Idaho]

I applaud having the information revealed in a glorious tale or betrayal and herosim. People often bemoan the loss of the mystery around an event, but it was never logical to have so much mystery around something on such a scale it touched almost every planet in the Human galaxy and changed the fate of the whole galaxy.

 

You can still have mystery despite such revelations.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@pacific81: bag of kittens? i must have missed that in my first reading! :P

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Gav's short story in 'Tales of Heresy' follows on from that book, again painting the DA as somewhat ambiguous in their actions.

And to the entirety of the Imperium they are. That is the whole schtick of the Dark Angels. They have a hidden agenda no one else knows about. We as the players, however, are thankfully told what their hidden agenda is about. That helps in getting into character and wanting to play an army of them. The Codex designers could hardly present them like "Here, you can play as the Dark Angels. They have some hidden secret though, which you as the player don't know. They might really be traitors, but play them as loyalists for the time being."

 

 

I too liked the 'fence sitting' idea, as I'm sure did a lot of others, simply because more than anything it adds a shade of grey to what so far has been a very 'good vs. evil' recounting of the heresy, with one side mightily smoting* for the goodness of the universe, the other growing spikes and getting bad breath.

 

Having said that, I know of someone who asked Alan Merrett about this specific direction of the DA and how they would develop, and got a roll of the eyes as a reply when they mentioned 'Angels of Darkness'.

Understandably so. I have never understood how anyone could give anything on that short line, coming from a fallen angel. We know what the Dark Angel's agenda is, and that Jonson was the good guy and Luther the bad guy. We have been told that in every Cocex since 2nd Edition. And an accusation from a fallen angel does not challenge that in the leats. What, that accusation is suddenly retconing the specific background from four past editions? Of course not. It was never more than a controversial gimicky line.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Hi all,just thought i'd ask if anyone has the same quandry as me?Im loving the HH novels(even the more ropey ones have kept me entertained on a dull skint night!) but they are slowly but surely taking away the mystery and also closing some of my own wee thoughts on what happened.So is anyone else feeling like you wish they had been left unwritten? P.S. Cant wait for the first heretic lol(I'm the worlds first skinflint addict,£4-5 for a fix that lasts about 4 to 5 weeks)

 

I've been liking the books, but what's been keeping me from loving them is the predictability. Well, maybe prdictable is the wrong word, it's that we know certain things are or aren't going to happen.

 

Take Nemesis for example....

 

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

We know that this band will fail in their mission to kill Horus, cause he was never assassinated, just like we know Spear will fail in his mission, cause the Emperor was never assassinated. That angst of not knowing has been taken away. It's like a car-ride to a place you've been to many times before, but only ever by plane. It's new, the scenery is nice and you'll see things you've never seen before, but you still end up in the same place. The journey is good, but the destination is still the same. :D

[Pacific81]

Indeed, eloquently put Hiro_protagonist. I think the real fun is going to be fleshing out the bits which were only lightly touched upon before, or new material altogether. Such as,

- The reason for Horus turning (sadly Elvis has left the building on this one, and I think the biggest mess-up of the series so far that more wasn't made of it - perhaps it will be amended in a future title, but I think it unlikely)

- Legion Spoiler:

The '2 primarchs' of the Alpha Legion and their future role in the Heresy.

 

- The massive battles coming up - the role of the Space Wolves for instance, the battle of Calth and the BA on the demon world. As well as all the books in between.

- As we are talking about here, the motivations of the Lion and the Dark Angels. Although at the moment it looks like it's going to be the fact the Lion needed an extra study period spent in social studies, rather than him having his own agenda. Although at least it looks like he has been given a bit of character in the form of a serious personal ambition.

 

@pacific81: bag of kittens? i must have missed that in my first reading!

 

Read again, he has cat eyes, is sitting cross-legged on a cloud (a black one, with tiny lightning bolts coming out of the bottom), has a bag of kittens (persian ones) in one hand, and a plate of fortune cookies in the other (inside each cookie is a message with a single naughty word written on it). ;)

 

Understandably so. I have never understood how anyone could give anything on that short line, coming from a fallen angel. We know what the Dark Angel's agenda is, and that Jonson was the good guy and Luther the bad guy. We have been told that in every Cocex since 2nd Edition. And an accusation from a fallen angel does not challenge that in the leats. What, that accusation is suddenly retconing the specific background from four past editions? Of course not. It was never more than a controversial gimicky line.

 

I understand what you are saying here Legatus, and I agree with you to an extent. You obviously favour the conception of the Lion as a noble character, in the same way as I find my interest in generally more morally ambiguous ones (although not 'evil' per se, I find that equally two dimensional, 'bad guys' have got to have a motivation for their faults if I am to find them interesting). But, I think the important point is that there is no such thing as a perfect, objective account of a fictional story which only exists within the imaginations of the writers, even more so when it's spread across several writers and the better part of 20 years.

Gav's book, whether intended seriously or not, added enough of a grey area (and a hell of a lot of discussion, much of which was very enjoyable!) to the nature of the Dark Angels. Sure, most people would assume the fallen is just telling a lie, but it was just enough to cast a seed of doubt and I think overall to add to the mystery of the chapter and their secrets.

 

So, I think regarding the OP, in this sense sometimes writing about something and demystifying it is not always the best thing to do. I hope they leave enough of a grey area to allow people to make 'fallen' armies in the future, place them on the tabletop and say, "yes you might think these guys are chaos, but really they are the good guys and your marines in dark green are the ones who should have been cast out". Without the opponent being able to say, no your army is invalid, I read about the bit where the Lion gets a picture of Horus' face and places it over the bullseye on a dart board.

So, I think both in terms of the background narrative, and even by extension the tabletop game, leaving things a bit open ended will definitely be more beneficial.

[Gunslinger87]

I would argue that the predictability that you speak of is probably the greatest aspect of the HH series. Just re-read the first 3 books and you will know what I am talking about. Things have changed since then and now we take all that we have learned so far for granted. Even your views might be different had only the first 3 been release. Then youd be screaming for more :lol: Some people may be tired of the longevity and revealing more and more, but I personally am not.

 

Yes, you know certain things must happen... except... you really dont... (it could all be slightly different and affected by 10000 of retelling right?) or there may be something enitrely different going on at the same time that puts a completely different spin on the events.

 

 

THe HH series is written with much more care and subtlety and the reason why I think its leagues above the rest is precisely that. Could you watch a sports event knowing the outcome? Yet this seems to have captivated millions of fans....

[douglas9521]

Thanks for all the interesting replys guys.Im totally with pacific on the fact i like 3 dimensional grey characters.I have to say that i dont find the lion fence sitting as a nessaceraly dubious motive though.I also think of it as Father and ma bro is going head to head,:)?Happened enough times in my house to make me feel like the Lion on that one(i call my youngest sis Angron now,she doesnt get the joke ;) ) I can certainly understand Legatus' point on the hero role though,personnal tastes an all.I mean where would we be without JRR Tolkien and the old good verses evil story,its just im more RR Martin now im afraid(must be the pessimist,cynic in me :( ) Im also right behid gunslinger to,i often read the end of a book then watch how the story gets from A to B and as he says the whole series of books is one long a to b.Enjoy the ride. I notice that Legatus said that the GW lads wont be retconning the DA,and as much as im sure he's 99.9% right,i've notice since getting back into wh40k this last year or so that a lot of things seemed to have completely changed!Which makes me think there not averse to it.I mean somebody told me the squats are no more,no more trikes :) .Plus the HH seems a long way from he stuff in the Space marine rulebook(original epic i think it was,mmm i loved that scale :( ) Sorry bout the long unreadable ramble all,and cheers again :)