Best unit/tactic to take out LR with termies

[mango00cool]

It is what it is,

 

I'm thinking of a list with three dp iron clads and wondering is that particular foe a huge road block.

[Jackelope King]

It is what it is,

 

I'm thinking of a list with three dp iron clads and wondering is that particular foe a huge road block.

Very, very, very expensive way to do it.

 

Go cheap.

 

Turn 1, fly 1 or 2 Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Land Speeders straight at the Land Raider flat-out. Block the Land Raider's path, and force it to go around. Two Speeders, set with less than the Land Raider's width + 2 inches is impossible for the Raider to drive through (especially if they land within an inch of the Land Raider). Since the Land Raider can't move within 1" of an enemy model, you create a giant wall that the Raider must go around, eating up precious movement.

 

Your opponent must kill that/those speeders immediately (and since they went flat-out, they have a 4+ cover save). It's harder than you think. If their shooting fails, the Land Raider will be eating melta-range shots. And Land Raiders really hate melta.

 

Thus you're blocking your opponent's movement and soaking up inordinate firepower and (if they survive) probably putting holes in the Land Raider.

 

Even with two speeders, it costs less than one Ironclad in a Drop Pod, and is quite effective.

[mango00cool]

I was thinking of atleast one landspeeder for such a feet alright, and yup two or three of them seems alot better.

[McFisty]

You will need anything strength 9 or 10 or Melta and Lance type weapons. Rending also has potential but is not as reliable. If you park your Land Speeders right in front of a Land Raider to try to block its movement, expect to get rammed. The difference between the AV on both vehicles could not be greater, which gives the Land Raider a huge advantage there. I think the Land Speeder blockade is a good idea but not all Land Raiders will be daunted by that. Depending on how mobile your army is, you might consider ignoring and avoiding the Land Raider for a couple of turns but it will have to be dealt with at some point. I hope that helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

[Grey Mage]

It is what it is,

 

I'm thinking of a list with three dp iron clads and wondering is that particular foe a huge road block.

Well, Ive cleaned them out often enough with a LRC loaded down with 12-15 Bloodclaws and a Wolf Priest. Took down a LR with 5 TDA and Marneus just the other week, works rather reliably.

 

That being said, you can do it with a discount by hitting it with some MM Landspeeders, 1 or 2 should do. Then hit them with a good sized plasma cannon salvo, or rapid fire them to death with a squad of Plasma toting Grey Hunters. Does the trick usually, for only about 300pts.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't forget that it is possible to destroy it with a Dreadnought in assaults, as well as melta bombs. It's wise to have them as options for when your melta weapon flunks it's chance.

 

I usually bomb it with an Orbital Bombardment when taking my Honour Guard, then have a Multi-Melta Landspeeder as my next weapon of choice. After that, I have melta guns in Tactical squads and Rhinos for a bit of drive by melting. If my opponents have countered all these threats I have 2 Dreadnoughts in my list that mill around in support of the Tacticals (opponents targets for the LR assault normally) who can charge and destroy a Landraider with S10.

 

If my opponent has countered each and every one of these things, well I don't really have much left in my army anyway, so I've probably lost :lol:

 

Well, Ive cleaned them out often enough with a LRC loaded down with 12-15 Bloodclaws and a Wolf Priest. Took down a LR with 5 TDA and Marneus just the other week, works rather reliably.

 

Here is the biggest weakness of Thunder Hammer Terminators. For all their apparent awesomeness, they don't like a mountain of attacks falling on them since they strike last.

[tahrikmili]

Get Seth in base to base with it. :lol: OK just kidding (and making fun of a long thread in the BA forums really..)

 

Melta weapons are good but in another thread I had calculated how many melta weapons it takes to reliably take down a Land Raider in one turn, and whether you like it or not the number is unfortunately 6..

 

 

So basically what you need is something better than 2 Multi-Melta speeders.Maybe a squadron of 3. Still, it will fail half the time and you'll lose all three. The only advantage they have over other alternatives is that to reliably kill a Land Raider you need to realiably stay close to it and Speeders can do that.

 

Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta are IMO worse because they don't get flat out saves, and while they are T5 that means little against a Land Raider.

 

If you ask me, Tactical Terminators (especially with Chainfists) and Hammernators will carve it open in no time, as will Devastators with 4 Multi-Meltas (if in range) or 4 Lascannons. Other than that I really don't think there is anything else in our army lists to reliably kill it with without being a) equal points value, B) sacrificial, when combined sort of defeats the purpose.

[bystrom]

Melta weapons are good but in another thread I had calculated how many melta weapons it takes to reliably take down a Land Raider in one turn, and whether you like it or not the number is unfortunately 6..

 

If you ask me, Tactical Terminators (especially with Chainfists) and Hammernators will carve it open in no time, as will Devastators with 4 Multi-Meltas (if in range) or 4 Lascannons. Other than that I really don't think there is anything else in our army lists to reliably kill it with without being a) equal points value, :lol: sacrificial, when combined sort of defeats the purpose.

 

Hammernators can only glance, so their out, devs with 4 multi-meltas will only be able to glance (but get +1 for AP1), still its worse than the lascannons (and no, I don't think the land raider will end its movement within 12" of the multi-meltas and not have something nasty charge the devastators).

 

With regards to the ramming, if you end up movement so that you're right in front of the land raider, it won't get bonuses for speed, making it a lot harder to destroy the land speeder, not to mention the speeder's a skimmer so will get a dodge chance, thusly most likely leaving the raider's crew dumbstruck and stationary.

 

I believe sending the speeders forward in such a move isn't going to get them killed, inbetween cover saves, ram-dodge saves and being hit on 6+ in close combat, they're still not unlikely going to end up something, either shaken, weapon destroyed or destroy, in either way, they won't most likely be able to shoot, which you usually want, seeing as you can't block the raider forever.

 

If you really want the raider destroyed, I believe a drop pod with 10 sternguards with 2 melta guns and lots of combi-meltas will see it destroyed, just combat squad them upon landing, shoot five meltas and hope you destroy the vehicle, then shoot the passengers with either hellfires or meltas (add nullzone for better effect). If you fail to destroy it with the first five meltas, guess what? you have five more :) That's what, 335 pts with a chance to destroy the land raider assuming it doesn't get cover (which it might) and you landed on target (which you might not) of about 53% for five shots and 78% for ten.

 

EDIT: Some wrong math, 5 meltas have about 75% and 10 about 90%

[Br.Pat]

If you really want the raider destroyed, I believe a drop pod with 10 sternguards with 2 melta guns and lots of combi-meltas will see it destroyed, just combat squad them upon landing, shoot five meltas and hope you destroy the vehicle, then shoot the passengers with either hellfires or meltas (add nullzone for better effect). If you fail to destroy it with the first five meltas, guess what? you have five more :( That's what, 335 pts with a chance to destroy the land raider assuming it doesn't get cover (which it might) and you landed on target (which you might not) of about 53% for five shots and 78% for ten.

 

Then you've just used a 335pt unit to destroy an approximately 250pt one and the 335pt one is very likely to get destroyed next turn by the terminators, especially if they're Assault Terminators. Gets the job done? Maybe. Points Efficient? Certainly not.

[tahrikmili]

If you really want the raider destroyed, I believe a drop pod with 10 sternguards with 2 melta guns and lots of combi-meltas will see it destroyed, just combat squad them upon landing, shoot five meltas and hope you destroy the vehicle, then shoot the passengers with either hellfires or meltas (add nullzone for better effect). If you fail to destroy it with the first five meltas, guess what? you have five more :) That's what, 335 pts with a chance to destroy the land raider assuming it doesn't get cover (which it might) and you landed on target (which you might not) of about 53% for five shots and 78% for ten.

 

Then you've just used a 335pt unit to destroy an approximately 250pt one and the 335pt one is very likely to get destroyed next turn by the terminators, especially if they're Assault Terminators. Gets the job done? Maybe. Points Efficient? Certainly not.

 

This is the case with pretty much anything that has to take it out in close combat (read: Melta)

 

Therefore I reiterate my choice of Tactical Terminators with Chainfists (Have a chance of weathering the inevitable Terminator assault next turn, very likely killing half of the squad at the very least) or 4 Lascannon Devastator Squad.

[Gunslinger87]

If you really want the raider destroyed, I believe a drop pod with 10 sternguards with 2 melta guns and lots of combi-meltas will see it destroyed, just combat squad them upon landing, shoot five meltas and hope you destroy the vehicle, then shoot the passengers with either hellfires or meltas (add nullzone for better effect). If you fail to destroy it with the first five meltas, guess what? you have five more :) That's what, 335 pts with a chance to destroy the land raider assuming it doesn't get cover (which it might) and you landed on target (which you might not) of about 53% for five shots and 78% for ten.

 

Then you've just used a 335pt unit to destroy an approximately 250pt one and the 335pt one is very likely to get destroyed next turn by the terminators, especially if they're Assault Terminators. Gets the job done? Maybe. Points Efficient? Certainly not.

 

This is the case with pretty much anything that has to take it out in close combat (read: Melta)

 

Therefore I reiterate my choice of Tactical Terminators with Chainfists (Have a chance of weathering the inevitable Terminator assault next turn, very likely killing half of the squad at the very least) or 4 Lascannon Devastator Squad.

 

A 4 man lascannon squad is possibly the greatest point sink there is. Very easy to take out 300 points worth with a 5 man assault squad... Your best bet is another land raider, an annihilator patter predator, vindicator (though I personally dont like them) might even be a good idea, especially if you can take a pair. But Las devastators? Trust me, dont even think that way...

[Jackelope King]

If you really want the raider destroyed, I believe a drop pod with 10 sternguards with 2 melta guns and lots of combi-meltas will see it destroyed, just combat squad them upon landing, shoot five meltas and hope you destroy the vehicle, then shoot the passengers with either hellfires or meltas (add nullzone for better effect). If you fail to destroy it with the first five meltas, guess what? you have five more :) That's what, 335 pts with a chance to destroy the land raider assuming it doesn't get cover (which it might) and you landed on target (which you might not) of about 53% for five shots and 78% for ten.

 

Then you've just used a 335pt unit to destroy an approximately 250pt one and the 335pt one is very likely to get destroyed next turn by the terminators, especially if they're Assault Terminators. Gets the job done? Maybe. Points Efficient? Certainly not.

 

This is the case with pretty much anything that has to take it out in close combat (read: Melta)

Upthread it was mentioned that you need 6 melta shots, on average, to kill a Land Raider.

 

Lovely. I'm not planning on killing it on turn 1. Even flying a single speeder into its face accomplishes three things:

1. The Land Raider must now go around the Speeder. If you're close enough, the Raider is not eligible to Ram the Speeder (which also gets a chance to dodge the Land Raider). That means you're probably not getting a face full of Terminators on turn 2. Mission accomplished.
   
2. The enemy must kill the speeder. 1 in 6 chance, yes, but those are not good odds, compared to other means of anti-tank. If your opponent fails to kill your Speeder, the speeder can now threaten just about every vehicle on the table. This is a bad thing for the enemy.
   
3. Since the speeder must be killed, and because it just moved flat-out, it draws an even more disproportionate amount of firepower to itself. This spares the rest of your force the full brunt of the enemy's fire. On turn 1, most armies are at their strongest, in terms of weight of fire.
   

The investment in a single MM/HF speeder (or ideally a pair of them) isn't too great. It will also benefit you against a wide number of different enemy threats (everything from hordes of enemy infantry to hunting fast tanks to putting wounds on MCs). This configuration for Land Speeders means they do pretty well in an all-comers list.

[Captain Idaho]

If you really want to alpha strike it, a Librarian in Terminator armour with 5 man Combat squad with Sergeant and combi-melta in a Drop pod costs exactly 260pts (at a minimum) and stands a reasonable chance if you have Vortex of Doom on it.

 

But there in lies the reason I dislike suicide units in Space Marines lists - it's not an exact science and if you fluff it you lose a sizeable investment.

 

Your best way to deal with such a combo is to prevent the opponent from using it. The threat of Melta weapons may force him not to commit it until it is too late, as losing a Landraider always hurts, and such a delay can lose games (or win it for you!). Pick at the Landraider with the available melta weapon when the opportunity arises, of course, but don't focus on it. Tit for tat doesn't win 40K. I've won games (or drawn) against an opponent who has hammered my list and would actually win on VPs but we don't play 4th edition anymore :)

[tahrikmili]

I don't really know what the numbers are, but how does the Assault Cannon Speeder compare to the Multi-Melta speeder? It will likely accomplish everything mentioned above and be a better all-comers threat, no?

[bystrom]

Upthread it was mentioned that you need 6 melta shots, on average, to kill a Land Raider.

 

Lovely. I'm not planning on killing it on turn 1. Even flying a single speeder into its face accomplishes three things:

1. The Land Raider must now go around the Speeder. If you're close enough, the Raider is not eligible to Ram the Speeder (which also gets a chance to dodge the Land Raider). That means you're probably not getting a face full of Terminators on turn 2. Mission accomplished.
   
2. The enemy must kill the speeder. 1 in 6 chance, yes, but those are not good odds, compared to other means of anti-tank. If your opponent fails to kill your Speeder, the speeder can now threaten just about every vehicle on the table. This is a bad thing for the enemy.
   
3. Since the speeder must be killed, and because it just moved flat-out, it draws an even more disproportionate amount of firepower to itself. This spares the rest of your force the full brunt of the enemy's fire. On turn 1, most armies are at their strongest, in terms of weight of fire.
   

The investment in a single MM/HF speeder (or ideally a pair of them) isn't too great. It will also benefit you against a wide number of different enemy threats (everything from hordes of enemy infantry to hunting fast tanks to putting wounds on MCs). This configuration for Land Speeders means they do pretty well in an all-comers list.

 

I'd rather change point 2 to, the enemy must get a glance/pen on the speeder (and past its cover save), seeing as shaken/stunned means it can't fire that turn, wep destroyed means it won't shoot its melta ever, immobilised and destroyed means its destroyed (since it moved fast). It'll still draw quite a lot of fire, but it doesn't have to be enough to kill it, also pray there aren't any enemy units capable of harming the speeder that are quite useless against the rest of your army, that's in range and don't have anything better to shoot at.

 

Also, assault cannon has about 10% chance to immobilise a raider (through a pen), the same for a AP1 melta is 26%, unless I've calculated something wrong.

An alternative to boosting the speeder would be to take a chance and deep-strike it. A lot riskier but could work if you know your speeder's going to fail in doing enough by speeding towards the land raider headlong.

[tahrikmili]

10% for the assault cannon? Have you taken into account that it fires 4 times?

[Koremu]

You can get 2 Vindicators for the price of one Land Raider (and that's not including the contents).

 

Land Raiders are also excellent targets due to their size.

[bystrom]

10% for the assault cannon? Have you taken into account that it fires 4 times?

 

Yes, I've written a program for my calculator, so I enter the start number of shots, the intervall, the number of wounds needed to pass through (useful for killing MCs) and the probability to succeed with one wound. The program then sums up the different probabilities that give the correct result for shots, and it spit out 10% for four shots for the assault cannon. I've checked it once again and done it using a different method and its still 10% (more correctly around 9.5%). I believe you're thinking of the lascannon vs. assault cannon discussion, the lascannon has the probability of 7.4%. What makes meltas so great's their +1 to the damage table and their 2D6 when in melta range. These two together mean that they'll most likely get a pen and that pen will more likely than not immobilise/destroy the vehicle.

 

I'll also state again that these numbers are for getting immobilised or destroyed, seeing as immobilising the raider'll stop the termies as well.

 

Also, how exactly would you use the terminators and the chainfists? The raider'll most likely be moving over 6", so you're hitting on 6+, not to mention you have to get into base-to-base with it in the first place, its faster than the termies... The normal termies are also easier to kill, if a couple of stray plasma shots or similar end up their way, the assault termies charging them would eat them up.

[minigun762]

I gotta say that the MM Attack Bike seems to be the cheapest counter, its less expensive then the Speeder and doesn't rely on you deepstriking your Speeders. You should be able to get within range on turn one and if not, you can always turbo boost to protect yourself.

[Br.Pat]

Personally I'd go for the speeders. 3 meltashots should do the trick.

[Meatman]

I worked out it takes 5 melta shots to kill a raider on average.

 

Did you take into account the chance to kill on a glance? 5 sternguard with combi-meltas/meltaguns podding is 185 points and will reliably take out a raider when within 6". Give them a lightning claw if you're worried about the termies charging. Give them a chance to do something back :lol:

[greatcrusade08]

i use land speeder storm with multi-melta, with a 5 man squad with combi-melta and meltabombs.. its 155 points

[ShinyRhino]

You want to go cheap for this one. A pair of multimelta attack bikes, or a pair of multimelta speeders. Both can move up to 24" for a cover save (3+ for the bikes, 4+ for the speeders) to close with the Land Raider. Both get a single melta shot each after moving 12". Both will get murdered by the Terminators who pop out of the Land Raider after you kill it. Make sure you're not trading lots of points, or multiple killpoints for that one Raider. I'd avoid pod Sternguard, as they give up two KP when the Terminators eat them, as do a Storm/Scout combo. You're trading two KP for one in an annihilation game.

[greatcrusade08]

You're trading two KP for one in an annihilation game.

 

its only one third of games that use KPs though, whereas the scouts can score.. ok they usually get minced but sometimes they live.

[Captain Idaho]

40K isn't just a game of straight up mathematical comparison, trading points for points or KPs for KPs. Sometimes, you can trade those 2 KPs and similar points to seriously comprimise the opponent's chance to win the game. Sure you might be down for a couple turns, but if it ultimately wins you the game then it was worth it.

 

40K is about keeping your momentum, and preventing the opponent from building their own.