Best unit/tactic to take out LR with termies

[Xeonic]

On the KP issue, a squad of cheap attack bikes may die, giving one KP away, where the raider is one, the termies are one, and the usually attached character is one. Using 100-150 pts of attack bikes(one KP) to asplode a 250+ points transport with 200-300+ pts of cargo(possibly allowing you to take out 2-3 KP of models) in it that then have to slog it out is a good thing, even if the attack bikes all die in the backlash. I personally tend to prefer Speeders because as vehicles they're hard to hit in CC after they move(and they move every turn) and cannot be locked in with the termies should they survive to run away, and though combat tactics+ATSKNF may work sometimes, they're also multiwound T4(5) models and thus don't like S8 thunderhammers.

 

I deal with Land Raiders thusly:

1. Speeders up, shoot Land Raider until it asplodes/wrecks/immbolizes.

2. If asplode/wreck is obtained, or targets debark, then Nullzone.

3. Plasma Cannon templates on Nullzoned termies.

4. Watch opponent cry. Jubilate inside. :D

 

The weakness is #1. All too often my MM miss or fail to asplode/immobilize and get hammered to death by longrange AT or even bolter fire(I almost cried that time :P ) in that turn of weakness. You can of course help #1 out with a little bit of redundancy. 2x2 MM attack bikes or speeders is still less than the cost of one land raider. ;)

[minigun762]

Something that has been hinted at but I don't know if its been out right said, is that Land Raiders and their cargo usually represent a keystone unit for the opponent's army. Deny him/her this unit and you force them to adapt and change their gameplan.

 

I think this is a truism for anyone who relies heavily on any kind of "deathstar" unit. Of course the best players will understand that reliance and either work redundancy into the plan or have adequate counter-measures to protect their investment.

[tahrikmili]

For Blood Angels, a Librarian with Blood Lance (4D6" S8 AP1 Lance Shooting psychic attack) and Sanguine Sword in a Rhino sounds like a good idea too, btw..

 

Lance the Raider, Terminators assault and break the Rhino, get out, Sanguine Sword (S10 Power Weapon) and charge the Terminators. Or something.

[Gunslinger87]

On the KP issue, a squad of cheap attack bikes may die, giving one KP away, where the raider is one, the termies are one, and the usually attached character is one. Using 100-150 pts of attack bikes(one KP) to asplode a 250+ points transport with 200-300+ pts of cargo(possibly allowing you to take out 2-3 KP of models) in it that then have to slog it out is a good thing, even if the attack bikes all die in the backlash. I personally tend to prefer Speeders because as vehicles they're hard to hit in CC after they move(and they move every turn) and cannot be locked in with the termies should they survive to run away, and though combat tactics+ATSKNF may work sometimes, they're also multiwound T4(5) models and thus don't like S8 thunderhammers.

 

I deal with Land Raiders thusly:

1. Speeders up, shoot Land Raider until it asplodes/wrecks/immbolizes.

2. If asplode/wreck is obtained, or targets debark, then Nullzone.

3. Plasma Cannon templates on Nullzoned termies.

4. Watch opponent cry. Jubilate inside. ;)

 

The weakness is #1. All too often my MM miss or fail to asplode/immobilize and get hammered to death by longrange AT or even bolter fire(I almost cried that time ;) ) in that turn of weakness. You can of course help #1 out with a little bit of redundancy. 2x2 MM attack bikes or speeders is still less than the cost of one land raider. ;)

 

Hmm, Id like to see an example of a 100-150 point attack bike squad killed a land raider and 5 termies and a chaplain or such. Not even my rolling could cause that. Simply not happening. The LS tactic is being used out there and Ive had mixed results with it used against me. Never has it actually killed my raider, but it has immobilized (which with a DS unit inside is enough of a pain) I have yet to see somebody use it in a killpoint game though.... YOu just dont throw killpoints away with a "hope" they might (not even get a killpoint back) but "disrupt" your opponent.

 

PS YOur 4 step solution is interesting. I doubt whether you can fulfil all the conditions needed for that combo to succeed.

1. speeder doesnt get shot to pieces by regular bolter fire (18*2/3*1/6=2 glancing hits with only -1 however with cover save) Thats not counting of course all the other support weapons your opponent wouldnt have shot had you not presented him with a nice target.

 

ex. 175 point tactical squads with plasma cannons sitting on objectives or smaller squads in heavy bolter razorbacks)

2. How did your librarian get within 24" of the LR. Is he risking that in the following turn the LR will definitely explode and moves up (with his squad) well if it doesnt (which you can Probably expect since killing LR with melta is nice, but not guaranteed) not even talking about the LR shooting the librarian to pieces, LR moves 12" Termies Debark 2-3" (large bases)- assaults 6" thats 21", you better have used your laser sight and stayed out of range. Ehm, not even talking about my Fleet Terminators (shrike) Oh and did that nullzone fail on you? Oops :)

 

3. Same issue with the plasma cannons. You just happen to have them handy close by (36" isnt that far) or the LR is specifically going that way? (well could be so, as a LR can block LOS to those weaker transports behind it.)

 

4. Watch opponent smack that LSS away and kill the Libbie and his squad, racking up 3 killpoints you so like about those bikes :)

 

Im not saying it doesnt work, Im just saying that it is very hard to work with LOTS of probabilities jumping around, all of which can fail.

[Xeonic]

the attack bikes don't have to kill the contents of the land raider, they just lead to their deaths. Footslogging termies are all of a sudden bolter bait, really. :) 150 pts is three attack bikes and brings 3 MM to the table, who have a reasonable chance of blowing up an AV14 target. 180 buys you three MM speeders(I admit I normally field them in pairs or singly though, and usually with another weapon) with the same antitank potential.

 

The sacrificing 1 KP for two or even three is hypothetical, at worst of course you fluff the melta rolls and you lose your speeders/bikes, at best you blow up the raider and leave the contents to be shot up or ignored as the situation demands. Honestly if you're going to shoot up TH/SS termies with low AP fire, Nullzone is a crucial part of making them fail that 3++.

 

My little list does depend on a lot, however, that's the ideal way I figure to deal with LR and their contents. I may ignore the termies after the raider is popped/immobilized, they may have cover or be obscured or so(say they emergency debarked behind the wrecked raider)... it's just a rough idea. Basically my lists generally have all the elements needed to pull that off, so that's a potential plan. I take two tactical squads with plasma cannon in virtually all my lists anyways, PC are effective vs a variety of targets, and I may or may not have the libby, but usually so. My libby is generally in a rhino that can move up so he can nullzone, or he can sit back and wait for the threat to close.

A real threat to this plan is that my opponent merely have his termies go to ground in 4+ cover(or just skulk there) and not just run up to take that plasma fire, but in this case they're also effectively neutralized and can be ignored. :) It helps that I normally play on either 4x4 or 4x6 tables so my plasma cannons can reach most of the way across the board.

My super master plan is iffy maybe, but if and when it works, it tends to work fairly well. ;)

 

I also never said I used LSS, I prefer the single KP and normal BS4 a normal speeder squadron bring to the table. IMO LSS are the most efficient option only if you get first turn and autohitting meltabombs, which makes them a little iffy in and of themselves. They do offer three chances to destroy a land raider though(BS3 mutli-melta, BS4 combi-melta, potentially autohitting meltabombs).

 

In KP games I try to play more conservatively, however, I will sacrifice a couple speeders or attack bikes to take out a great threat to my plans or take out or at least neutralize a disproportionately large chunk of my opponents power is usually worth it.

 

It's 40k, anything can happen once you start to throw dice down, but I for one make fantastical plans that sometimes work out well(using the things I normally pack in my lists, no less!). Fantastical plans aside either way, MM speeders or bikes are probably the best way to deal with AV14 from a cost efficiency standpoint IMO, but your mileage may vary.

 

EDIT: It's worth noting that I also play at 1500-1750 almost exclusively, and I do not field a Land Raider borne Death Star in my average list, so that I probably have at least a slight fire support edge over a list with one, a fact that I enjoy on the average, when my multi-meltas actually -do- the job they were intended to do. ;)

[Brother Tual]

Vindicators.... its the only ranged weapon capable of destroying a LR and then 5 termies. The problem is that it takes two turns (unless you are lucky with your first shot and you have a second/third vindi in range) and it requires that the enemy doesnt hurt your vindicators. If I was going for a single weapon/unit it would be this.

 

Honestly, the same tactics used to take out a mech list can be used to take out a LR/termy unit. The stakes and difficulty are just raised a little.

 

The MM geared up speeders are best in a normal, predictable points per potential outcome relationship but is pretty easy to stop unless you have some kind of melta/vulkan spam list. Unless you have some sneaky way to apply this unit an easy counter is a dead unit.

 

Personally I find tactics and timing a much better counter to this unit over picking a MM death unit for JUST INCASE the enemy has a LR/termy unit. The unit might be a threat but it wont win the game. Its not scoring. Outmanouvre it, shoot it with one weapon just to annoy the enemy + to get lucky then kill it if you want to with overwhelming force (glance the thing to death if you have to). My fav anti tank weapon is volume fire. Its like a MC but you dont have to kill it 3 times over and tanks are less effective per 'hit' (glance or pen) unlike a MC.

 

 

Example of volume fire (turn 4 to 5)- I killed a LR/termy unit with 8 tactical termies, immobilised it and surrounded it so the 5 inside couldnt get out then mushed it with auto hits and only 3 inside could stand in the wreckage auto pinned who were gunned down to a man then squished - unconventional and kinda long odds but a lot of dice but very effective. I am not saying this is a great way to kill LR/termies but even with only str8 weapons it can be done if you have enough...

[Grey Mage]

There is always a Stormraven- fly up, PotMS it with a twin-linked MM. Thats a 88% chance of hitting and all told about a 65% chance overall of atleast immobilizing it- wich is all you really need to do.

 

Then, enjoy a 4++ against incoming enemy fire and immunity to melta rules- and next turn let your dreadnaught wade into any nearby terminators while the other squad in it engages another nearby unit- or two if its got FC.

[BoonKin]

I used 3 Landspeeders with MM, and they each block the assess points of the land raider.

 

On a lucky roll (most of the time), I get a immo/vehicle destroyed result and the passengers can say goodbye.

 

Is blocking still legal? Its a brutal tactic to only be used during tourney, otherwise no one else would want to play you :)

[Gunslinger87]

I used 3 Landspeeders with MM, and they each block the assess points of the land raider.

 

On a lucky roll (most of the time), I get a immo/vehicle destroyed result and the passengers can say goodbye.

 

Is blocking still legal? Its a brutal tactic to only be used during tourney, otherwise no one else would want to play you :)

 

I think its pretty hard to block a still active Land Raider and then wait if you can immobilize it the same turn (it will just ram you or its occupants will pop out after a 6" move and destroy the speeders. And if you do manage to immobilize the raider, the contents will disembark before you can make your move if the player can see that being a threat. This is a bit beside the topic, because just immobilizing the raider is usually the aim for those speeders. Then just move the force out of assault range.

 

Still, I have yet to see a land raider with termies that have no way to exit.

[Chengar Qordath]

I used 3 Landspeeders with MM, and they each block the assess points of the land raider.

 

On a lucky roll (most of the time), I get a immo/vehicle destroyed result and the passengers can say goodbye.

 

Is blocking still legal? Its a brutal tactic to only be used during tourney, otherwise no one else would want to play you ;)

 

I think its pretty hard to block a still active Land Raider and then wait if you can immobilize it the same turn (it will just ram you or its occupants will pop out after a 6" move and destroy the speeders. And if you do manage to immobilize the raider, the contents will disembark before you can make your move if the player can see that being a threat. This is a bit beside the topic, because just immobilizing the raider is usually the aim for those speeders. Then just move the force out of assault range.

 

Still, I have yet to see a land raider with termies that have no way to exit.

Neither of those threats are going to be particularly problematic for Land Speeders. At close range, a Land Raider won't have any space to build momentum for the ram, so it's only a strength 5 hit, and, as already mentioned, skimmers dodge a ramming attempt on a 3+. An attack that only penetrates on a 6+, and that the unit gets a 3+ save against is not a particularly dangerous one. Plus, you have to give up your shooting to ram, and every land Raider in the game would be better off shooting than it would trying to ram.

 

As for the contents of the Raider, odds are the Speeders went at cruising speed before firing their meltas, which means that in assault you hit on 6+. On top of that, anything not armed with a high-strength melee weapon does not have good odds of doing much damage.

 

Let's do some mathhammer for the absolute worst-case scenario: a Crusader full of hammernators

8 Hammernators

24 Attacks x 1/6 hit rate = 4 hits x 1/6 glance rate = 2/3 glancing hits

24 Attacks x 1/6 hit rate = 4 hits x 4/6 glance rate = 2 2/3 penetrating hits

 

So, in the absolute worst-case scenario for the speeders, you probably end up with something in the area of one speeder killed outright, and the other two disabled to some degree. If you're fielding lightning claw terminators or anything else that doesn't hit at strength 8, or using one of the Land Raiders with a lower transport capacity, it gets much worse; a crusader full of lightning claw terminators averages less than one glancing hit.

[Captain Idaho]

There is always a Stormraven- fly up, PotMS it with a twin-linked MM. Thats a 88% chance of hitting and all told about a 65% chance overall of atleast immobilizing it- wich is all you really need to do.

 

Then, enjoy a 4++ against incoming enemy fire and immunity to melta rules- and next turn let your dreadnaught wade into any nearby terminators while the other squad in it engages another nearby unit- or two if its got FC.

 

Fiendish; though a big investment to take down a Landraider, the embarked unit will be in it's position to threaten the enemy army too!

 

Does a Fast moving skimmer not receive a 3+ cover save from incoming fire?

 

***Edit*** Nope, just a 4+ cover save. Silly me.

[Gunslinger87]

Unless you have something other than just Termies in that Land Raider. You could have an HQ with a combi melta, Calgar, Termies with a Chaplain rerolling those hits and adding grenades or their own attacks. Plus you forgot to add the shots of all those bolters....

 

Did I mention how speeders are vulnerable to bolter fire? If you charge those speeders ahead, they are in enemy territory and the thing they have to deal with is far from just the raider and its contents.

 

Think of all those bolters from the tactical squads that would have remained unused and are now directed against the speeders.

 

Its a risky tactic... its also risky if you wait the extra turn and charge them then.

[Chengar Qordath]

Unless you have something other than just Termies in that Land Raider. You could have an HQ with a combi melta,

That makes a healthy difference since a BS 5 melta shot has around a 55% chance to score a kill, but using your combi-melta's only shot on a Land Speeder is pretty wasteful. Personally, I would save my only melta shot for a better target.

 

Calgar

So instead of three hammer attacks (or four nigh-useless claw attacks) you get six fist attacks. Minimal difference, since those three extra attacks will probably miss anyway.

 

Termies with a Chaplain rerolling those hits

I believe you mean re-rolling the misses, not re-rolling the hits. Assuming everything else in the Raider is Hammernators, that nets you an average of 4.28 penetrating hits and 1.27 glancing hits. That's better, but allocation means you're likely to see the four penetrating hits stacked on two speeders, with the other one taking a single glancing hit. Two speeders die, one lives, and it only took you 400 or so points of elite assault troops to pull it off.

 

adding grenades or their own attacks.

Using grenades against anything you need to hit on a 6+ is not a winning strategy; one attack per model is not nearly enough, and even if they hit kraks fail to do anything against speeders half the time. Most models are more likely to do damage swinging a chainsword multiple times and hoping for glances than they are trying to land a hit with a single krak.

 

Plus you forgot to add the shots of all those bolters....

When did assault terminators get bolters? Oh wait, you're just moving the goalposts. Nevermind then, no point in debating someone who does that.

 

Bolters are a minor threat to a squadron of landspeeders; you only glance on a 6, and even then you've got a 66% chance of just shaking it. If you're willing to spend half your army's shooting just to take down a couple land speeders, I have to wonder what the rest of your opponent's army is going to be doing in the meantime.

 

Even if the speeders do end up dying off, three MM/HF speeders is more than a fair trade for killing a Land Raider and de-meching the very nasty troops within it. If you're de-meching a nice, expensive HQ unit along with the assault terminators, then that just makes the likely death of the land speeders an even better deal. Anything beyond that is just a bonus.

[Gunslinger87]

Unless you have something other than just Termies in that Land Raider. You could have an HQ with a combi melta,

That makes a healthy difference since a BS 5 melta shot has around a 55% chance to score a kill, but using your combi-melta's only shot on a Land Speeder is pretty wasteful. Personally, I would save my only melta shot for a better target.

 

Calgar

So instead of three hammer attacks (or four nigh-useless claw attacks) you get six fist attacks. Minimal difference, since those three extra attacks will probably miss anyway.

 

Termies with a Chaplain rerolling those hits

I believe you mean re-rolling the misses, not re-rolling the hits. Assuming everything else in the Raider is Hammernators, that nets you an average of 4.28 penetrating hits and 1.27 glancing hits. That's better, but allocation means you're likely to see the four penetrating hits stacked on two speeders, with the other one taking a single glancing hit. Two speeders die, one lives, and it only took you 400 or so points of elite assault troops to pull it off.

 

adding grenades or their own attacks.

Using grenades against anything you need to hit on a 6+ is not a winning strategy; one attack per model is not nearly enough, and even if they hit kraks fail to do anything against speeders half the time. Most models are more likely to do damage swinging a chainsword multiple times and hoping for glances than they are trying to land a hit with a single krak.

 

Plus you forgot to add the shots of all those bolters....

When did assault terminators get bolters? Oh wait, you're just moving the goalposts. Nevermind then, no point in debating someone who does that.

 

Bolters are a minor threat to a squadron of landspeeders; you only glance on a 6, and even then you've got a 66% chance of just shaking it. If you're willing to spend half your army's shooting just to take down a couple land speeders, I have to wonder what the rest of your opponent's army is going to be doing in the meantime.

 

Even if the speeders do end up dying off, three MM/HF speeders is more than a fair trade for killing a Land Raider and de-meching the very nasty troops within it. If you're de-meching a nice, expensive HQ unit along with the assault terminators, then that just makes the likely death of the land speeders an even better deal. Anything beyond that is just a bonus.

 

I meant the bolters on all those tactical squads etc who are now in range... Nothing stops a unit from jumping back onto the transport and so on. I am not saying that you should do any of these things, Im just saying that even this isnt as solid a strategy as some of you seem to be saying here.

[Grey Mage]

Looks pretty solid to me. But then again, thats just because Ive seen it work a few dozen times.

 

Drive up, blow the raider, and then hit them with plasma later when theyre closer. Dont even need to go flat out in alot of games, as youll start closer than 24". Just move up 12, take your three shots- with a MM attack bike squadron for instance- and youve got pretty good odds of removing it from the field.

 

This is why landraiders are not a staple of my playing enviroment- to many ways to counter them. And thats just with other marines, let alone Tau, or Crons.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

here's a couple (3)of off the wall ideas that, i'm sure will draw some kind of Naysaying...

but i digress..and offer a bike Command squad with x4 melta bombs+Capt on bike w/meltabomb, supported by a full assault squad with x3 plasma pistols+ 2nd HQ(libby) w/jump pack+plasma pistol as well.

or

x2 Jump pack Vanguard squads (5 men each) 1 with x5 melta bombs, or x4 melta bomb + 1 Thunderhammer. and other will x5 power weapons. 200+235, not cheap by any means, but edge of the sit, do or die trying kinda of fun for all to have..

or

Gunline: x4 lasercannon 10 man devastator+containing calgar as deterant+orbital bombardment, All screened by a 6 man scout sniper squad and Flanked/rear guard by a pair of TLLC dreads with DCCW+Heavy flamer upgrades. < scoring, sitting on your back field objective, weights in around 940pts.. but mY gOd What a FIRE BASE of DOOM.