VGV's Optimal Size?

[River Black]

Time and time again I find myself in a situation where I over attack a squad with a powerful unit such as the Vanguard Vets. Basically what happens is that I charge in with FC and either wipe the squad out completely leaving me open to shooting or I inflict to many regular wounds (non PW) so that my opponent can stack the majority of the PW wounds onto two models leaving the squad still combat effective. To me the ideal situation would be to kill off 6 or 7 MEQs to remain in combat. So where is the balance? Is there anyway to math hammer this out to find the optimum number of VGVs, power weapons, lightning claws, and regular weapons needed to have the most balanced combat result? For simplicity I think we should stick to the VGV against a regular 10 man MEQ unit. If people get ambitious then we can figure it out with terminators as well.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I find that seven is the perfect number, plus go ahead and load up on lightning claws/power weapons and a thunderhammer/power fist. This will prevent your opponent from stacking wounds that ignore armor saves on one or two models.

 

0b :P

[WarpWalker]

I too would like to see the results of this. I'm using 7 VV with a power fist, 2 powerswords and 2 storm shields.

[Gunslinger87]

Its simple maths not that hard to calculate... Im busy right now, but if nobody has time, will pop the numbers in 2moro.

[Lanfear]

if you have 7 Models, dont you think that the few points for an 8th one is worth the cost to open a new cirlce for deepstriking?

[River Black]

plus go ahead and load up on lightning claws/power weapons

 

Thats the problem though. A Seven man unit with power weapons will clean house and wipe the squad leaving them open to being shot durring the next shooting phase.

[Arkio]

just pick your VGV's target carefully . i use a squad of 5 with 4x LC's and a thunderhammer sometimes i run them with pairs. of LC's works out to ~320 points of death. i use them as a diversionary so my more expensive death company or sanguinary guard dont get shot a much once my vgv arrive

[R0N1N]

if you have 7 Models, dont you think that the few points for an 8th one is worth the cost to open a new cirlce for deepstriking?

 

don't you need a 10man squad before you can combat squad them? or am I missing what you're saying? It sounds like you are talking about combat squading to me....

 

 

plus go ahead and load up on lightning claws/power weapons

 

Thats the problem though. A Seven man unit with power weapons will clean house and wipe the squad leaving them open to being shot durring the next shooting phase.

 

I was thinking the same thing, and got this idea. Build up a 10man VGV squad. Equipt at least 3 with PW and SS, and 3 with infernus pistols. the SRG can have a FP. That is a 475 point squad that you can combat squad the way you'd like depending on the situation. A 5 man team with Heroic intervention (the PW dudes, srf and 1 other) can drop for HI and the other 5 can drop to try and melta something (maybe add Dante with them to drop spot on that tough enemy HQ or tarpit and melta them... if you wan you can still drop a 10 man squad in there with HI to take on the 30mand Orc squad or termies etc... the three PW dudes should give you enough killing to take out most of a squad, and the PF srg is there to help a bit more with the tougher opponents...

 

Well, that's how I play them, tried it once so far and it worked pretty OK. ante and the team melta'd 2 vehicles and the 5 man HI squad tied up an eldar Avatar for the entire game (wish I had the PF then, but had the srg loaded with an LC...)

[GlauG]

if you have 7 Models, dont you think that the few points for an 8th one is worth the cost to open a new cirlce for deepstriking?

 

don't you need a 10man squad before you can combat squad them? or am I missing what you're saying? It sounds like you are talking about combat squading to me....

 

 

I think they mean the concentric circles one deploys in when Deep Striking. Having an extra "Circle" technically makes it more likely one might Mishap, I guess?

[LordCommanderSamirus]

if you have 7 Models, dont you think that the few points for an 8th one is worth the cost to open a new cirlce for deepstriking?

 

don't you need a 10man squad before you can combat squad them? or am I missing what you're saying? It sounds like you are talking about combat squading to me....

 

 

I think they mean the concentric circles one deploys in when Deep Striking. Having an extra "Circle" technically makes it more likely one might Mishap, I guess?

 

Adding in the extra "circle" actually makes it easier to make your HI assault with less risk of mishaps. The first model placed is the only one that matters as far as the mishap chart is concerned.

 

-Samirus

[noodle-j]

I'm curious here. All these options seem to be very expensive in points, what kind of battle are we talking about with these builds? Would you guys take a 320 point vanguard to a 1500 point game? I know it's a bit off topic but i thought it's a better idea to ask here rather than make a new thread. Cheers

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The first model placed is the only one that matters as far as the mishap chart is concerned.

 

-Samirus

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Is this accurate? I thought if others in the circle ended up too close to an enemy model etc. it was a mishap?

[Arkio]

I'm curious here. All these options seem to be very expensive in points, what kind of battle are we talking about with these builds? Would you guys take a 320 point vanguard to a 1500 point game? I know it's a bit off topic but i thought it's a better idea to ask here rather than make a new thread. Cheers

 

 

while they are expensive i play with other expensive hammer type units. forgoing shooting and hoping to close in fast and ruthless if i am playing smaller games i tool down my 320 pooint squad to ~ 240 by dropping pairs of LC's and going singles. i use my vgv as a glass hammer. i land i assault kill something expensive utterly. and now my oppenent is looking at my vgv in his backfield and my sang guard and dc flying at them and they need to make a hard choice of what to shoot.

[KhorneHunter57x]

When I use my Vanguard, I use a 5-man squad with Jump Packs, 1 with Thunder Hammer, 1 with Storm Shield, 2 Normals, and Sergeant with Power Weapon and Meltabombs. This keeps it cheap enough that I don't mind losing the unit if something bad happens, yet they are potent enough to deal quite a bit of damage to anything if they land on target.

 

The reason I use a 5-man squad (in addition to keeping them cheap) is that way I can 'bend' the circle away from my enemy if I land too close, and I can 'bend' it toward them if I land too far away. It adds in a bit of precision that helps offset the fact that I use Codex: Space Marines Van Vets that don't have access to your fancy accurate Jump Packs.

 

The first model placed is the only one that matters as far as the mishap chart is concerned.

 

-Samirus

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Is this accurate? I thought if others in the circle ended up too close to an enemy model etc. it was a mishap?

From page 95 of the BRB:

If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.

So the whole unit is counted for Mishap, not just the initial one.

[SamaNagol]

6. 3 PW, 1 TH, 2 SS. All on different models.

[Natanael]

The first model placed is the only one that matters as far as the mishap chart is concerned.

 

-Samirus

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Is this accurate? I thought if others in the circle ended up too close to an enemy model etc. it was a mishap?

From page 95 of the BRB:

If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.

So the whole unit is counted for Mishap, not just the initial one.

 

Still, the main thing that makes it good is that you get closer to your enemy. Works better with things like Bloodcrushers or other large stuff, but still, it is a little closer for that heroic intervention <_< And you dont get destoryed just cause you land in difficult terrain, so there should be some room to manouver. Also, if you dont make the HI, dont forget to run them. If you can get within 18" (and that should be really easy) you are guaranteed a charge next turn. If they are not shot to hell, of course.

 

- Natanael

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The first model placed is the only one that matters as far as the mishap chart is concerned.

 

-Samirus

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Is this accurate? I thought if others in the circle ended up too close to an enemy model etc. it was a mishap?

 

Yes, the entire squad must be counted. Page 95 BRB "If any of the models cannot be deployed...terrain...top of friendly...1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.The controlling player must roll on the deep strike Mishap table and apply the results."

 

If everyone can't land safely, then a mishaping you shall go!

[Gunslinger87]

Dunno about blood angels:

 

ump Pack Vanguard Veterans on the charge for Example:

 

Sergeant with RB 3*1/2*5/6 = 1,25 for 70 points is 15,38 (kills divided by points * 1000)

Sergeant with TH 3*1/2*5/6 = 1,25 for 70 points is 15,38

Sergeant with PW 4*1/2*1/2 = 1 for 55 points is 18,18 (better worth for points, but only unit able to take relic blade, so creates some decisions)

Veteran w CCW + BP 4*1/2*1/2*1/3 = 0,333 for 30 points is 11,111

Veteran w CCW + Storm Shield 4*1/2*1/2*1/3 = 0,333 for 45 points is 7,41

Veteran w LC 3*1/2*3/4 = 1,125 for 45 points is 25

Veteran w LCs 4*1/2*3/4 = 1,5 for 60 points is 25

Veteran w TH 3*1/2*5/6 = 1,25 for 60 points is 20,83 (so it is chaper to take a thunder hammer veteran than a sergeant...)

Veteran w LC + SS 3*1/2*3/4 = 1,125 for 60 points is 18,75

Veteran w TH + SS 3*1/2*5/6 = 1,25 for 75 points is 16,66

Veteran w PW 4*1/2*1/2 = 1 for 45 points is 22,22 (so taking one power weapon is worse in fact than one lightning claw, since the extra attack doesnt outnumber the rerolls with this number of base attacks. In fact without the charge, they are mathematically equal, but that isnt the point. NEVER take a PW over a LC if they cost the same)

 

What you can see here, besides the tactical (gaining anti tank, gaining invul) is that taking a single lighning claw is better than a single pw. ALso that taking 2 LCs is not worth it. For the same points worth of 2 LC Vets and 1 LC vets you get just as much killiness but more bodies with the second option. And many more things to consider. People dont like mathammer, but some things just plain dont make sense.

 

Taking 2 LCs becomes "tactically unwise" and so on.

 

Break down your own units and find out what does what you want with the lowest number of points.

[SamaNagol]

If you want a unit that will kill kill kill anything it touches, instead of VGV, take a unit of Sanguinary Guard with no upgrades other than a Chapter Banner, a Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack and Power Weapon, and an Epistolary Librarian with Jump Pack and Sanguine Sword & Unleash Rage powers.

 

Invulnerable saves won't be much of an issue because nothing will be left alive.

[WarpWalker]

I agree 100% with you Samanagol! But the sang guard can't HI. Plus the problem with over killiness is your left open to enemy fire afterwards.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like that combined unit Samanagol. I have been tinkering around with something similar using HG instead of SG. It might be a good idea to add a couple of infernus pistols and a power fist. That would be in the neighborhood of an extra 50 some points. This would make the unit more versatile for just a small amount of points. I think it's a very strong unit either way. ;)

 

0b :D

[elithren]

I'm trying the combat squad option of a 10 man Vanguard Vet squad, 5 of which are close combat kited with storm shields and powerweapons(I dont have the bits for claws) and the sergeant has a hammer. The remaining 5 all have melta bombs and the plan is to combat them so the 5 meltabombs are my tank hunters/tie up the annoying guy while my shields are the hard hitting powerhouse.

[WarpWalker]

Wow! Combat squading the Vanguards never even crossed my mind. This have potential.

[Gunslinger87]

Wow! Combat squading the Vanguards never even crossed my mind. This have potential.

 

Eh? Combat squading a unit that is already horribly overpriced? I really wouldn't want to spend around 500 points for a decent 10 man VGV unit when I can have 10 termies for 400 or termies plus a land raider for 450... VGV are useful as a scare unit, small, surgical, effective... not as a 10 man unit. Those are some of the most overpriced wounds out there.

[WarpWalker]

Eh? Combat squading a unit that is already horribly overpriced? I really wouldn't want to spend around 500 points for a decent 10 man VGV unit when I can have 10 termies for 400 or termies plus a land raider for 450... VGV are useful as a scare unit, small, surgical, effective... not as a 10 man unit. Those are some of the most overpriced wounds out there.

 

1. Terminators can't HI.

2. This game is all about the risks.

3. "small, surgical, effective"...sounds like a 5 man unit. Thus...combat squading. I know there are a bunch of folks here that use 2 VV in there armies. It may turn out to be crap or it could be a game winner. I'm not a reckless player, but I am daring. I never leave home without a beacon on a pod or scout. And if I couldn't use the beacon ('cause it's dead) I'd just DOA them, combat squad 'em and run in different directions.