Furioso Dreads Deployed by Airdrop

[Ming]

Was in a tournament this weekend, which had my Third Co Ultras teamed with Shiny's 2nd Co Ultras in a 2000 point random paired tournament. We had a pretty good day going until....

 

Game 3. Tau and BA team. For 1000 points, the BAs had the new BA flying tank - Storm Raven, fully loaded with a librarian, 10 totally powered up death company, and a furioso dread with blood talons.

 

Turn 3, the Storm Raven comes in from the edge 12 inches, and the dread drops at its base, fleets 6 inches (maybe), and charges a unit of our librarian and 10 assault marines, all w/ jump packs. Needless to say, the librarian (IC) was targeted first and wiped out that assault phase, the marines decided to fail morale and jump pack away, but were caught in a bad sweep roll, stayed in BTB, and then the next assault phase were wiped out by the dread using the blood talon rules at I5. Yep, 10 assault marines killed in one assault phase by one dread. Later the death company "fell out" of the Storm Raven and pretty much did the same to another tac squad.

 

HOLY EMPEROR OF TERRA!

 

It begs a question line:

 

How does the dread detach? The flyer was left on its base and up 8 inches in the air, so the dread should have deep struck where? From the rear of the base or anywhere within 2 inches of the base? Or just placed on the ground? Does it roll for scatter at all? OR is it the vehicle has to rest on the ground in order for the dread to use the Vehicle's Assault Ramp capabilities? Or does the assault ramp only apply to the passengers coming out of the assault ramp? If the dread scatters, 2D6? If it has to deep strike then, does that take away the assault for that turn?

 

Later, when the death company popped out (assuming they had jump packs or not?), same question - do they just drop out, or does the assault ramp have to hit the ground so the marines do not deep strike / jump / scatter? death company would be 1D6?

 

Just wondering how this is all working. it makes a big difference being on the recieving end, if the assault on deep strike cannot be done, meaning the vehicle has to be on the ground to pull it off by using the ramp instead, running out.

 

Overall, having the vehicle forced to be on the ground in order to assault from it has benefits to the opponent (us) by reducing possibility for additional support weapon hits and being able to assault it on the ground and such.

 

Overall, the Storm Raven seems to be the most complicated rule bender out there.

 

OK you experts - tell me how its supposed to be done!

[Grimtooth]

Was in a tournament this weekend, which had my Third Co Ultras teamed with Shiny's 2nd Co Ultras in a 2000 point random paired tournament. We had a pretty good day going until....

 

Game 3. Tau and BA team. For 1000 points, the BAs had the new BA flying tank - Storm Raven, fully loaded with a librarian, 10 totally powered up death company, and a furioso dread with blood talons.

 

Turn 3, the Storm Raven comes in from the edge 12 inches, and the dread drops at its base, fleets 6 inches (maybe), and charges a unit of our librarian and 10 assault marines, all w/ jump packs. Needless to say, the librarian (IC) was targeted first and wiped out that assault phase, the marines decided to fail morale and jump pack away, but were caught in a bad sweep roll, stayed in BTB, and then the next assault phase were wiped out by the dread using the blood talon rules at I5. Yep, 10 assault marines killed in one assault phase by one dread. Later the death company "fell out" of the Storm Raven and pretty much did the same to another tac squad.

 

HOLY EMPEROR OF TERRA!

 

It begs a question line:

 

How does the dread detach? The flyer was left on its base and up 8 inches in the air, so the dread should have deep struck where? From the rear of the base or anywhere within 2 inches of the base? Or just placed on the ground? Does it roll for scatter at all? OR is it the vehicle has to rest on the ground in order for the dread to use the Vehicle's Assault Ramp capabilities? Or does the assault ramp only apply to the passengers coming out of the assault ramp? If the dread scatters, 2D6? If it has to deep strike then, does that take away the assault for that turn?

 

Later, when the death company popped out (assuming they had jump packs or not?), same question - do they just drop out, or does the assault ramp have to hit the ground so the marines do not deep strike / jump / scatter? death company would be 1D6?

 

Just wondering how this is all working. it makes a big difference being on the recieving end, if the assault on deep strike cannot be done, meaning the vehicle has to be on the ground to pull it off by using the ramp instead, running out.

 

Overall, having the vehicle forced to be on the ground in order to assault from it has benefits to the opponent (us) by reducing possibility for additional support weapon hits and being able to assault it on the ground and such.

 

Overall, the Storm Raven seems to be the most complicated rule bender out there.

 

OK you experts - tell me how its supposed to be done!

 

First, I think a dread dropping from a Storm Raven that has moved that far is deep striking via Skies of Blood and cannot assault the turn he deep strikes.

 

Also, why would the dread be at I5 if he kept you in btb? Even if he had rolled for and got The Red Thirst, that only applies to the charge, not sweeping advance that keeps you in btb.

[Grimtooth]

Ok, had to get home for lunch to check rulebooks:

 

The Storm Raven moved 12".

 

pag 67, BRB: Disembarking; 2nd bullet point

If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move further in that Movement phase. Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot). After disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault.

 

So, his dread could not have assaulted the turn it disembarked from a moving vehicle.

[Seahawk]

Did the Storm Raven Deep Strike or just come onto the table from the edge from Reserves? If he deep struck, then he cheated as you cannot assault from a deep striking transport, even if it has open-topped or assault ramp (SR has the latter).

 

If he flew on the table edge, yea...that's exactly how it works. Model-wise, it doesn't matter how high up on the base it is, just like the valkyrie. Passengers disembark within 2" of its base. Models don't need jump packs, etc. It's assumed the vehicle comes down like a helicopter, close enough to safely drop off its dudes and then lifts up again. Additionally, it has the same air-dropping rules as the valkyrie, so if it goes faster than 12" passengers can still get out, but they must deep strike somewhere on the vehicle's previous movement path; models utilizing this method cannot assault.

 

You said it was 8" up...I imagine he used the valkyrie base? I think it'd be handy to follow the FAQed valkyrie rules, which is what I described above.

 

You can shoot and assault it just the same as any other vehicle; it doesn't matter how high of a base it's on. The only time a vehicle is ever taken off its flying base is when it's immobilized or destroyed, and even then only if it's not glued on (or if it's Tau with landing gear).

 

Overall, yea, that dreadnought has a potential ~28.3 inch threat range when it flies on from the board edge in the Storm Raven; infantry have a 26.99" range.

[Grimtooth]

Did the Storm Raven Deep Strike or just come onto the table from the edge from Reserves? If he deep struck, then he cheated as you cannot assault from a deep striking transport, even if it has open-topped or assault ramp (SR has the latter).

 

If he flew on the table edge, yea...that's exactly how it works. Model-wise, it doesn't matter how high up on the base it is, just like the valkyrie. Passengers disembark within 2" of its base. Models don't need jump packs, etc. It's assumed the vehicle comes down like a helicopter, close enough to safely drop off its dudes and then lifts up again. Additionally, it has the same air-dropping rules as the valkyrie, so if it goes faster than 12" passengers can still get out, but they must deep strike somewhere on the vehicle's previous movement path; models utilizing this method cannot assault.

 

You said it was 8" up...I imagine he used the valkyrie base? I think it'd be handy to follow the FAQed valkyrie rules, which is what I described above.

 

You can shoot and assault it just the same as any other vehicle; it doesn't matter how high of a base it's on. The only time a vehicle is ever taken off its flying base is when it's immobilized or destroyed, and even then only if it's not glued on (or if it's Tau with landing gear).

 

Overall, yea, that dreadnought has a potential ~28.3 inch threat range when it flies on from the board edge in the Storm Raven; infantry have a 26.99" range.

 

Did you not read the rules I just posted from disembarking from a moving vehicle? The Storm Raven moved. The dread could disembark, not move anymor in the Movement phase, run, but NOT be able to assault.

[Seahawk]

It has assault ramp, just like the land raider. Of course they can assault; saying otherwise is simply denying rules exist.

 

However, when deep striking nothing can assault from anything (other than Vanguard and daemons, currently). I didn't need to read your post (I did anyway), as it didn't pertain to what I wrote. Except the first sentence, heh.

[JamesI]

Assuming the dread was a Death Company Dread and not a Furioso, it looks like your opponent did nothing wrong (except the dread should not have been initiative 5 in the second round of combat).

 

If it was a Furioso, it doesn't have fleet, but DC dreads do.

[Ming]

Thanks for all the thinking on this. I'll need to go back and look at the book, overall, though, the Dread is "clamped to the rear" of the flyer, and does not actually disembark from the front via the assault ramp. RAI vs RAI vs RAI vs RAA? (intended vs implied vs interpreted vs abused?) Does the dread roll for fleet or just go 6"? I could only imagine what would have happened if we'd had 2 units nearby - the BAs would have killed and assaulted everything....

[Ming]

Assuming the dread was a Death Company Dread and not a Furioso, it looks like your opponent did nothing wrong (except the dread should not have been initiative 5 in the second round of combat).

 

If it was a Furioso, it doesn't have fleet, but DC dreads do.

 

Would not have mattered at I5 or I4...assault marines with krak grenades need 6's to hit a furiouso and then another 6 for a glance...9 marines doing that have no chance at causing any meaningful damage unless the Emperor/Dice God was particularly helpful that day....

 

It may have been a DC dread...whichever has one magna grapple and the Blood Talons...

[JamesI]

Thanks for all the thinking on this. I'll need to go back and look at the book, overall, though, the Dread is "clamped to the rear" of the flyer, and does not actually disembark from the front via the assault ramp. RAI vs RAI vs RAI vs RAA? (intended vs implied vs interpreted vs abused?) Does the dread roll for fleet or just go 6"? I could only imagine what would have happened if we'd had 2 units nearby - the BAs would have killed and assaulted everything....

An assault ramp just lets someone disembark and assault, they don't have to disembark through the ramp. No reason the dread can't asasult.

 

The dread does need to roll for fleet.

[Leonaides]

Could have been either... they can both have that loadout. And the vehicle makes no distinction about how the dread is carried and if it is allowed to use the assault ramp rules - same as a Landraider allowes you to assault out of a side door as well as/instead of the front hatch. So that wasnt cheating. And to be honest, you're lucky that your opponent decided to butcher your assault squad and librarian the way he did it - he could/should have done it the other way around and killed them all in 1 assault phase.

 

the SR is neither a game-breaker or a rule-bender - its an AV12 transport fast skimmer. If you're unaware of its capabilities you'll get caught. But you're highly unlikely to be as unprepared next time are you.

[Ming]

Could have been either... they can both have that loadout. And the vehicle makes no distinction about how the dread is carried and if it is allowed to use the assault ramp rules - same as a Landraider allowes you to assault out of a side door as well as/instead of the front hatch. So that wasnt cheating. And to be honest, you're lucky that your opponent decided to butcher your assault squad and librarian the way he did it - he could/should have done it the other way around and killed them all in 1 assault phase.

 

the SR is neither a game-breaker or a rule-bender - its an AV12 transport fast skimmer. If you're unaware of its capabilities you'll get caught. But you're highly unlikely to be as unprepared next time are you.

 

You are correct. I've seen the other threads in B&C this AM, clarifying that the Blood Talon extra attacks can be carried over to the IC once the regular guys are all pulped. The BA player did not know that.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, since theyre allocated as they 'appear' and it was an assault vehicle... it wounds like your opponent did everything correctly.

 

And furthermore, since theres no official model and C:BA doesnt say anything particular about where the dread can exit, only where its carried, he can be deployed within 2" of any of its access ports- including right out the front hatch.

 

Thankfully, it does state that although they can disembark when it goes full out, they cannot assault.

[ShinyRhino]

I was the victim of the assault. Everything seemed to be legal. The only real factor was not realizing the Dread had Fleet. I was holding my Assault Squad back until the Storm Raven arrived from reserves, and had left a nice little buffer zone to make sure neither the Dread, nor the Death Company could reach me on arrival. I forgot about Fleet, and it was my responsibility to ask/refresh my memory. Oops.

 

The Dread attacked my squad with attached Librarian, and I was forced to base it with the Libby, who was promptly pulped. I failed to do anything with nine krak grandes at I4, and only Stunned it with a powerfist (which it ignores). Next turn, I whiffed all nine grenades again, and the Dread pulled off a chain of 10 Blood Talon wounds. The end. lol.

 

My fault for not remembering/knowing about the Fleet roll. The Dread alone rolled our right flank, and largely cost us the game.

[Grey Mage]

Out of curiosity- why were you making the grenade attacks anyways? Krak grenades cant hurt a furioso.

[JamesI]

Out of curiosity- why were you making the grenade attacks anyways? Krak grenades cant hurt a furioso.

It had fleet , making it a DC dread not a Furioso. Armor 12 so there is a chance.

[Grey Mage]

Ahh, fair enough- that would make sense.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just to add, IIRC the Stromraven entry itself says to measure embarking/disembarking from the flying base, and not the model itself. So 2" from the base would have been fine for the Dread.

 

I usually like to place the Dreads on the rear quater, but there's nothing really that suggests you have to.

 

Edit: In adiditon, if it was a Blood Talen DC Dread, and it caused unsaved wounds versus the Libby, it could have allocated those on to the Assault Squad (if it was also in base contact with those) after the Libby had died.