Brother-Chaplain Apock Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 In the SM:Codex (pg. 16) it states that the 6th Tactical Reserve Company is trained in the use of bikes and the entire company may be deployed as bike squadrons and the 7th Tactical Reserve Company is trained to fight with Land Speeders and the company commonly acts as a light vehicle formation. Being that the Blood Angels are as codex adherent as the flaw allows I would think that we would keep with the codex dictated structure of training in the 6th and 7th reserve companies though I have never once seen a Blood Angel Tactical marine piloting a bike or land speeder. I'm getting ready to paint my assault bike compliment and am plotting out what company they are going to be from. So far most of my force is from 5th company. This is what I have so far: Assault Termies: 1st Company (Painted) Tactical Termies: 1st Company (Painted) Tactical: 4th squad 5th Company (Painted) Tactical: 5th squad 5th Company (Painted) Assault: 7th squad 5th Company (Unpainted) Assault: 7th squad 3rd Company (Unpainted) Devastator: 9th squad 5th Company (Painted) I have rhinos and razorbacks from the 5th for each squad and a Land Raider from 1st. All my Preds and such are issued from the armory. All are unpainted currently So anyway, here I am wondering where to draw the bikes from. I can either draw them from the 3rd Company or from one of the reserve companies. If i do draw them from a reserve company I may take them from the 6th as the whole company is trained in bikes though the 8th are a possibility as well. If I decide to include the bikes from one of the tactical reserve companies I would assume their helmets would stay red wouldn't they? What do you all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 I would think that we would keep with the codex dictated structure of training in the 6th and 7th reserve companies They do, or at least they did in Codex: Angels of Death. I don't think I've ever seen a reserve company biker or speeder before, but I have always likewise assumed that they would retain the red helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 the new codex outlines the troops in each company, including numbers and support. according to the codex the 6th and 7th companies are tactical companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 the new codex outlines the troops in each company, including numbers and support. Only if you limit support to Dreadnoughts, it completely fails to mention which companies get Speeders and Bikes (which are also completely omitted from the Armoury) according to the codex the 6th and 7th companies are tactical companies. That point was not in dispute.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 the new codex outlines the troops in each company, including numbers and support. Only if you limit support to Dreadnoughts, it completely fails to mention which companies get Speeders and Bikes (which are also completely omitted from the Armoury) according to the codex the 6th and 7th companies are tactical companies. That point was not in dispute.. all other vehicles are listed in the armory, admittedly they left out speeders and bikes, but i'd assume they'd go with all the other support vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 all other vehicles are listed in the armory. Um, nope: 20 Predators 18 Baal Predators 5 Vindicators 7 Whirlwinds 43 Land Raiders 51 Stormraven Gunships No Land Speeders. Tho this is not an omission as GW has never listed Land Speeders under the armoury for any chapter since they are crewed by company marines, even the 3rd edition vanilla codex which even listed the Ultramarine armoury's Rhinos. (the current vanilla codex is the similar to the BA one, it omits the Bikes & Speeders from the chart but the unit entries state which companies get them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Apock Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 the current vanilla codex is the similar to the BA one, it omits the Bikes & Speeders from the chart but the unit entries state which companies get them That's what I drew my assumptions or musings from. We are a codex chapter so I would assume the 6th is trained in bikes and the 7th in Land Speeders. The most information we get from the new codex is on page 8 where it says: each company, save the 10th, also maintains a host of support vehicles, ranging from Rhino and Razorback transports to bikes and Land Speeders. The only other reference I have found is under the Bike Squad section where it says Bikers are traditionally drafted from a Chapter's Assault Squads. It doesn't even say that we specifically do that it just says A Chapter's Bikers. I've looked about in other books and have found some information here and there. The Forge World Imperial Armor book two says that each company has it's own compliment of Rhino transports, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, and Bikes but goes on to say that most crews for armored vehicles are drawn from the Tactical squads of the Chapters Sixth and Seventh Companies. It also gives an example from an Executioners Chapter strike force deployed in the Badab War which says each company provided its own Rhino's and bikes but the 7th provided all Land Speeder variants and the Custodians for the vehicles drawn from the armory. Under the Land Speeder section of the book it says: Whilst each Space Marine company has its own Land Speeders, dedicated to supporting its own squads, the majority of a Chapter's Land Speeder force is contained within the four reserve companies. In the Index Astartes under the Blood Angels section it says the marines in the 8th company that are not equipped with jump packs often make use of Land Speeders and Bikes to support their brethren. What it seems to me fluff wise is Bikers can come from any of the battle companies assault squads, the 6th reserve, or the 8th reserve and Land Speeders can come from any of the battle companies assault squads, the 7th reserve, or the 8th reserve. I haven't quite covered all of the material on this subject yet as I don't yet have access to everything but I'm workin on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 but back to the op- helmet colour could be red or yellow. The squads in those reserve companies are tacs but when they pilot speeders or bikes, does that then change their role to an assault designation? You can do whichever way you prefer, and they're both the right way. You could even paint them as 5th co and not be wrong- even if you're using all your other assault marines whats to say that for your current game, the 5th co has just set out on a long mission and have bulked up their numbers in anticipation of casualties? Or it could even be a tac squad you haven't painted yet who have been transferred back to assault designation duties for the battle. If you're not planning on collecting the full 100 man company, you have plenty of room to fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorisBC Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 bikes are drawn from assault squads, so 6th company is out. That leaves one of the battle companies, or the 8th company. And of course then helmets will be yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 bikes are drawn from assault squads, so 6th company is out. That leaves one of the battle companies, or the 8th company. And of course then helmets will be yellow. That may not be entirely accurate. The 6th company is actually a tactical company. Aside from being assigned to other companies, the 6th company's training still maintains the ability to operate other equipment as befiting the training of tactical marines. In other words, a 6th company tactical squad will be assigned bikes and would go to war with them if other companies are not available since tactical marines have "graduated" from those fields anyway. Likely the reserve companies are there to hold any tactical marines who have yet to be placed into one of the battle companies. The idea behind the reserve companies is that they have to be ready for any occasion but their focus is in whatever they are assigned. What they don't have is probably dedicated equipment. The battle companies must have all their equipment on hand because they are in active duty more often. The reserve companies likely procure their equipment maintained by the techmarines or may have to request such materials from the master of the arsenals. We have conversations about this over at Ex Libris Mortis often so there is definite background supplied by those more knowledgeable than I. Also, I field 6th company marines. I get around this by putting appropriate colored stripes on their helmet to signify that they are tactical marines who were required to be equip with war gear for their role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Apock Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 bikes are drawn from assault squads, so 6th company is out. That leaves one of the battle companies, or the 8th company. And of course then helmets will be yellow. Under the Biker section in the BA codex is says that: Bikers are traditionally drafted from a chapters assault squads. I take that to mean more often than not they are taken from assault squads but that it isn't Standard Operating Procedure, just the most common source. After doing much research over the past few days and all the reading I have done in the past and past conversations with members of this forum I am confident that our 6th reserve company is indeed trained in the use of bikes as mandated by the Codex Astartes. Again in Codex:SM it states that the 6th Tactical Reserve Company is trained in the use of bikes and the entire company may be deployed as bike squadrons. As the Blood Angels very much are a Codex adherent chapter I am of the belief that our reserve companies would be structured along the regimen dictated in the Codex. That being said I would feel comfortable fielding 6th company marines in bike or attack bike squads and in addition to this I am also fairly certain those marines would retain their tactical status and their red helmets. What they don't have is probably dedicated equipment. The battle companies must have all their equipment on hand because they are in active duty more often. The reserve companies likely procure their equipment maintained by the techmarines or may have to request such materials from the master of the arsenals. I've often wondered about this, if the "lesser" equipment is divided out by the armory or if some is dedicated company equipment. The answer can kinda be taken from the Forge World books though I'm unsure if some of the older books are considered dated material or not. Either way Forge World Imperial Armor book two says that each company has it's own compliment of Rhino transports, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, and Bikes, so I would take this to mean that both the battle companies and the reserve companies maintain these stocks. ( Pg.9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 A major source for this sort of thing is the 3rd edition vanilla dex, it included a chart that listed the makeup of the entire Ultramarine chapter on a particular date - not a generic "this company has some rhinos and some bikes" but specific numbers for every company and then a few examples of battlegroups that were currently deployed. No bikes or speeders were in the armoury, every one belonged to a company however the reserve companies only had comparable numbers to the battle companies rather than 5x as many: Full strength battle company: 15 rhinos, 15 speeders, 25 bikes and 5 attack bikes. 6th company: 13 rhinos, 21 bikes, 3 attack bikes. 7th company: 15 rhinos, 13 speeders. 8th company: 16 rhinos, 17 speeders, 28 bikes, 7 attack bikes. And for the doubting toms Codex Angels of Death page 48 stated that the BA Tactical Reserve companies used bikes & speeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Apock Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 A major source for this sort of thing is the 3rd edition vanilla dex, it included a chart that listed the makeup of the entire Ultramarine chapter on a particular date - not a generic "this company has some rhinos and some bikes" but specific numbers for every company and then a few examples of battlegroups that were currently deployed. Pretty sure this is the one? http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g229/apokk/CodexOrganisation.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Pretty sure this is the one? Nope, you can tell because thats a generic chapter chart that lists non-specific "this company has some rhinos and some bikes" which is the exact opposite of what I described . The chart I'm referring to was black and white and listed everything in the entire Ultramarines chapter on 6500745.m41 in minute detail, eg: EIGHTH COMPANY Captain Numitor 1 Chaplain, 1 Apothecary 1 Co. Standard Bearer. 3 Veteran Sergeants. 7x 10-strong Assault Squad 3x 8-strong Assault Squad 2 Dreadnoughts, 16 Rhinos 8 Land Speeders, 4 Land Speeder Tornadoes 5 Land Speeder Typhoons 20 Bikes, 4 Attack Bikes Note: Majority of 8th Company on extended combat training on Gaus II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Apock Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 OH Right! I totally forgot about this chart!!! Forgot I even owned this dex! Thanks for the reminder holmeslice! This be the one yes? http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g229/apokk/DispoofUltramarines3rded.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Bingo! Thats the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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