Shooting and Assaults

[Leardinal]

Hey all,

 

This situation came up in a friendly game I was playing with a friend. I had a Sergeant, (who had out lived his squad and been shot at with an obscene amount of weapons and survived,) jump behind a Chimera, shoot it with a bolt pistol, (nothing else to shoot at, and I might get that glance,) and do no damage to the tank. I then had a bike squad come up to the front of the same Chimera and blast it to pieces with melta. According to the rules for shooting and assaulting, if a squad shoots at a transport, and then it is peeled open, then the squad can charge the occupants.

 

Now the question: Can the bikes and the Lone Sergeant only assualt the former occupants of the ex-chimera? The rules say "can", but never say "options are restricted to," and then we talked about if a squad shot an infantry squad and killed it, could they charge anything in range or are they just not allowed to charge?

 

We decided that the Sergeant and the bikes could only assualt the squad of the ex-chimera, but I like to know if we missed a rule in our valiant search to find a straight answer, or if others interpret the rule differently from us.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You can only assault what you shoot.

BBB pg 33

"In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit it shot at - it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at. However, see the exception over the page for multiple targets."

[Leardinal]

I know you can only assualt who you shoot, I shouldn't have put in the first part of the post. The real question, (to me,) is what happens if you kill your target in the shooting phase? Do your marines simply stand there and go: "I didn't mean to bounce ya hard..." and stare at the bloody remains of their victims while there are plenty of other squishy targets that are just asking for a chainsword in the face? Is there a specific rule that looks at this scenario that says specifically yes or no? Or is the only time it even mentioned in where Marshal Wilhelm pointed me?

 

Logically, based on the other rules rulings: "You can only assualt the target you shot in the shooting phase." Shooting Phase "Target dies." Assault Phase "The original target died in the previous phase and therefore no longer exerts any control on the game"?

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The only exception to the "you shot it, you charge it" rule is with transports. If you destroy a transport in the shooting phase you can still charge the unit that was in it. This was probably put in to prevent people from shooting tanks, and then (if they were destroyed) charging another squad. This used to be pretty prevalent in the old rules.

[Leardinal]

The only exception to the "you shot it, you charge it" rule is with transports. If you destroy a transport in the shooting phase you can still charge the unit that was in it. This was probably put in to prevent people from shooting tanks, and then (if they were destroyed) charging another squad. This used to be pretty prevalent in the old rules.

 

*begrudgingly* Ok. It still seems like an un-needed "hand tied behind your back" thing, but I concede.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

*begrudgingly* Ok. It still seems like an un-needed "hand tied behind your back" thing, but I concede.

 

Sorry, I did gloss over your second part. :blush:

 

Alas, as GW has not said anything about what to do if you have shot the unit to pieces, we are stuck with the last ruling.

Perhaps you can scour the FAQs and tell us something new?

 

A similar thing can happen if you shoot a unit, it flees due to failed Morale and you are left twirling your chain sword. Even if another unit is right next to you shot at and intended to Assault.

Shooting at Boyz [who are Fearless with more than 11 models in the mob] is a no-brainer. Shooting at them when they are less than that is a bad idea if you have a big squad.

 

This makes Combat Tactics solid.

You shoot the Tacs and they run away, possibly out of Assault range.

You don't shoot the Tacs and by threat of special rule have diminished your kill-power against them.

That means they will kill more of your guys in close combat.

All they have to do is lose the Assault by one, can flee from it [when they would otherwise have probably stayed] and RF you.

Repeat until game over.

 

This allows Bikes to overcome their greatest weakness [getting locked in mêlée] and stay mobile and shooty. This is why Khan is not the best and automatic choice for biker armies, unless you are using him and an ugly strong command squad.

The Captain with Bike is generally better, as his bikes can run away.

 

Why trade in an army wide strength for one unit to be super-killy?

His army can do cool flanking stuff, etc, but Bikes are very mobile anyway, so it is a bit superfluous.

Khan does work better for a Rhino and Razorback army, however.

 

And his mini looks very cool ^_^

[Ming]

Just as a further overlooked thing maybe implied above:

 

If the Chimera had passengers, the sergeant and bikers can now assault them. Nuff said as above. I think there are other threads on shooting the transport and assaulting the now exposed contents. If the Chimera was empty, the discussion pretty much stopped there.

 

If the Chimera had passengers, and IF there is another valid target to assault next to the wrecked/exploded Chimera, the bikers should still be able to do a multiple/combined assault (not the sergeant - he has to go after just one unit, unless in his "closest to closest" move he can actually base 2 units). The the first closest biker and the remaining sergeant must go after the original target (passengers of the vehicle they shot at); the other remaining bikers can assault the second adjacent unit so long as unit coherency is maintained with the first biker. Once the moves are made, the opponent consolidates into the charge with both affected units. The movement ability to pull this off is actually a tactic, not a strategy...btw...

[ShinyRhino]

(not the sergeant - he has to go after just one unit, unless in his "closest to closest" move he can actually base 2 units).

 

A single model cannot base two units with one charge move.

[dswanick]

(not the sergeant - he has to go after just one unit, unless in his "closest to closest" move he can actually base 2 units).

 

A single model cannot base two units with one charge move.

I know of no rule precluding doing so. The circumstances which would allow this are very rare, but it can happen. Unless you know a specific rule in the rulebook which I've missed.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

[dswanick]

Correct. I was missing that the sergeant was the only remaining model from his squad.

[Hellios]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

 

What if to touch the only unit you can assault (the nearest model) you would also touch a model from another unit... what I mean is by sticking to the other rules the only way you could carry out the assault would mean you would get into base with this other unit as well.

 

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@X@

Imagine each line is a squad and I shot the middle squad (the x is a dead guy) and so to reach the model(s) left I would be touched by 1 of the models on the side (if I touched both it is almost certain I couldn't move through them and so couldn't assault anyway) would I be allowed to assault and if so would the model from the other squad count as locked in combat or just in base combat but not in the assault and if that is the case would it need to be moved an inch away?

[dswanick]

No. That's what caught me when I realized that the condition described was of a single model from a squad (the sergeant).

Moving Assaulting Models (last sentence of the first paragraph) - This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models. may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

By this the assault would fail and no assault would happen.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

 

What if to touch the only unit you can assault (the nearest model) you would also touch a model from another unit... what I mean is by sticking to the other rules the only way you could carry out the assault would mean you would get into base with this other unit as well.

 

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@X@

Imagine each line is a squad and I shot the middle squad (the x is a dead guy) and so to reach the model(s) left I would be touched by 1 of the models on the side (if I touched both it is almost certain I couldn't move through them and so couldn't assault anyway) would I be allowed to assault and if so would the model from the other squad count as locked in combat or just in base combat but not in the assault and if that is the case would it need to be moved an inch away?

 

For this to work the three squads would have to be in base contact with each other, and your base would have to be the same size as the middle squad's bases. Even then I'm not sure if it would be permitted because you would hit all three squads at the same time, but the rules state that you must contact the target squad first.

[Hellios]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

 

What if to touch the only unit you can assault (the nearest model) you would also touch a model from another unit... what I mean is by sticking to the other rules the only way you could carry out the assault would mean you would get into base with this other unit as well.

 

@@@

@@@

@X@

Imagine each line is a squad and I shot the middle squad (the x is a dead guy) and so to reach the model(s) left I would be touched by 1 of the models on the side (if I touched both it is almost certain I couldn't move through them and so couldn't assault anyway) would I be allowed to assault and if so would the model from the other squad count as locked in combat or just in base combat but not in the assault and if that is the case would it need to be moved an inch away?

 

For this to work the three squads would have to be in base contact with each other, and your base would have to be the same size as the middle squad's bases. Even then I'm not sure if it would be permitted because you would hit all three squads at the same time, but the rules state that you must contact the target squad first.

 

I admit that to have this kind of thing happen in the game would be a very rare occurance needing models in just the right place but I wanted to know in this case (assuming the model can move into assault without connecting with the other first (so slightly more than a bases width)) how would people rule or resolve this situation... dang I think another cat just got killed.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

 

What if to touch the only unit you can assault (the nearest model) you would also touch a model from another unit... what I mean is by sticking to the other rules the only way you could carry out the assault would mean you would get into base with this other unit as well.

 

@@@

@@@

@X@

Imagine each line is a squad and I shot the middle squad (the x is a dead guy) and so to reach the model(s) left I would be touched by 1 of the models on the side (if I touched both it is almost certain I couldn't move through them and so couldn't assault anyway) would I be allowed to assault and if so would the model from the other squad count as locked in combat or just in base combat but not in the assault and if that is the case would it need to be moved an inch away?

 

For this to work the three squads would have to be in base contact with each other, and your base would have to be the same size as the middle squad's bases. Even then I'm not sure if it would be permitted because you would hit all three squads at the same time, but the rules state that you must contact the target squad first.

 

I admit that to have this kind of thing happen in the game would be a very rare occurance needing models in just the right place but I wanted to know in this case (assuming the model can move into assault without connecting with the other first (so slightly more than a bases width)) how would people rule or resolve this situation... dang I think another cat just got killed.

 

If the spacing was slightly more than a base width then you could assault the middle squad (you can pass within 1" of the enemy during assault moves) but the other two would be safe.

 

Are we talking Schrodeger's cat here?

[Leardinal]

Edit: Oops! Double Post...

[Leardinal]

On page 34 of the Core Rules under Assaulting Multiple Units it says "...the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units,...."

 

As a single model has no remaining models I don't think it can do it.

 

What if to touch the only unit you can assault (the nearest model) you would also touch a model from another unit... what I mean is by sticking to the other rules the only way you could carry out the assault would mean you would get into base with this other unit as well.

 

@@@

@@@

@X@

Imagine each line is a squad and I shot the middle squad (the x is a dead guy) and so to reach the model(s) left I would be touched by 1 of the models on the side (if I touched both it is almost certain I couldn't move through them and so couldn't assault anyway) would I be allowed to assault and if so would the model from the other squad count as locked in combat or just in base combat but not in the assault and if that is the case would it need to be moved an inch away?

 

For this to work the three squads would have to be in base contact with each other, and your base would have to be the same size as the middle squad's bases. Even then I'm not sure if it would be permitted because you would hit all three squads at the same time, but the rules state that you must contact the target squad first.

 

I admit that to have this kind of thing happen in the game would be a very rare occurance needing models in just the right place but I wanted to know in this case (assuming the model can move into assault without connecting with the other first (so slightly more than a bases width)) how would people rule or resolve this situation... dang I think another cat just got killed.

 

If the spacing was slightly more than a base width then you could assault the middle squad (you can pass within 1" of the enemy during assault moves) but the other two would be safe.

 

Are we talking Schrodeger's cat here?

 

Just based on the quotes and examples, I think it would have been a better example if it the middle squad was already down a man and moved between the two squads, and took no damage from shooting but was shot, and the bottom member from the flanking squads where exactly 1" apart (the size of a base) then the scenario would be possible because the space between the bases would not be too small for the base and you would be in contact with all three squads.

 

Of course, GW didn't put this in the rules, not because there is so little chance of it happening, but because they feared the consequences for making such a paradoxical occurrence in their rules that the veil would be ruptured at that exact point on the table and Daemons would crash their way into the real world, enslaving and killing all in their path! :lol:

 

But, of course, that's just my theory ^_^

[Grey Mage]

Its quite possible to get two units with one model- as long as the model contacted in the unit you declared on, that is close enough to touch the other units model with, is the closest model to your assaulting unit of one.

 

It just doesnt happen often.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

(not the sergeant - he has to go after just one unit, unless in his "closest to closest" move he can actually base 2 units).

 

A single model cannot base two units with one charge move.

 

I think they can. I am not sure about the hypothetical scenario though.

[dswanick]

(not the sergeant - he has to go after just one unit, unless in his "closest to closest" move he can actually base 2 units).

 

A single model cannot base two units with one charge move.

 

I think they can. I am not sure about the hypothetical scenario though.

Only if, as Hiro_Prot pointed out earlier in the thread, the unit charging consists of 2+ models.

Moving Assaulting Models (last sentence of the first paragraph) - This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models. may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units (second paragraph) - As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as...

[mustardParty]

It's strange to me that the idea of single models getting into B2B keeps coming up. You're not allowed to do this. The 40K ruleset is a permissive system -it spells out what you can do, not what you can't. Pointing to the rules and saying "well you know it doesn't say you CANT base two units with one model" doesn't make you allowed to do it.

 

The rules are worded in such a way that it makes this scenario an impossibility in the first place. Different units must stay 1in away from each other. A unit of one model has to assault the closest model of a particular target unit taking the shortest possible route to do so. Even if a unit of one model had two units in front of him, and each unit had a model as close to each other as legally possible, and these two models from different units were exactly atomically the same distance from the assaulting single model unit - that single model unit still MUST take the shortest route possible to his target unit to make a proper assault move. The shortest distance into B2B with either unit will put that single model out of B2B with the other unit - it has to or you're not taking the shortest possible route into B2B.

 

Put it this way. The only way to get a single model into B2B with two units is for that single model to make an invalid assault move or for the two units to be in violation of the the rules by being closer than 1in to each other.

 

 

--

 

This doesn't take into account shenanigans I've heard of where you have a longer based model like a bike or a bug or robowolf that goes B2B then the model 'pivots' in place bringing another part of its base in contact with a second unit. I have a feeling this is pure funny business as well though - the rules are permissive and there's nothing about extra pivots in place and such after the move is completed.

[Grey Mage]

It's strange to me that the idea of single models getting into B2B keeps coming up. You're not allowed to do this. The 40K ruleset is a permissive system -it spells out what you can do, not what you can't. Pointing to the rules and saying "well you know it doesn't say you CANT base two units with one model" doesn't make you allowed to do it.

 

The rules are worded in such a way that it makes this scenario an impossibility in the first place. Different units must stay 1in away from each other. A unit of one model has to assault the closest model of a particular target unit taking the shortest possible route to do so. Even if a unit of one model had two units in front of him, and each unit had a model as close to each other as legally possible, and these two models from different units were exactly atomically the same distance from the assaulting single model unit - that single model unit still MUST take the shortest route possible to his target unit to make a proper assault move. The shortest distance into B2B with either unit will put that single model out of B2B with the other unit - it has to or you're not taking the shortest possible route into B2B.

 

Put it this way. The only way to get a single model into B2B with two units is for that single model to make an invalid assault move or for the two units to be in violation of the the rules by being closer than 1in to each other.

 

 

--

 

This doesn't take into account shenanigans I've heard of where you have a longer based model like a bike or a bug or robowolf that goes B2B then the model 'pivots' in place bringing another part of its base in contact with a second unit. I have a feeling this is pure funny business as well though - the rules are permissive and there's nothing about extra pivots in place and such after the move is completed.

 

How about when the closest distance brings the model into BTB with two units at precisely the same time, at the front of the model, with no pivoting involved?

[greatcrusade08]

ive always played it as allowed aslong as your not abusing the system.. if by moving the minimum distance you catch two units (easier for an MC) then we assume its a multiple assault..

looking at the rules quotes above it does sound like its not allowed, but ive never encountered it at a tourney level..

[Marshal Wilhelm]

How about when the closest distance brings the model into BTB with two units at precisely the same time, at the front of the model, with no pivoting involved?

ive always played it as allowed aslong as your not abusing the system.. if by moving the minimum distance you catch two units (easier for an MC) then we assume its a multiple assault..

looking at the rules quotes above it does sound like its not allowed, but ive never encountered it at a tourney level..

 

I am thinking a single model cannot multi-assault as he is coming touching models of the squad he is not targeting, which is not allowed....

 

Lets check the BBB pg 34:

 

"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following all the same rules as in their movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models.

This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy units they are not assaulting....

[whilst it looks possible from the Red, the Blue shows that you cannot.]

 

Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units

As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit SINGULAR against which the assault was declared.

Then the remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units.

 

You cannot declare with one unit that you are assaulting more than one.

 

If your Assault against unit X can only be achieved by also touching unit Y, you cannot do so.