Arguements for and against the assualtback

[Charliemachina]

I currently own 3 Codex Space Marine Assualt Cannon Razorbacks and I am only looking to field them more.

 

So lets debate their usefelness!

 

Pros

Can carry Troops

Don't use up force organisation slots

Can take down literally ANYTHING on a good day

lots of rending shots with re-rolls

Can blow smoke to get them where they need to be

As mech they can survive many hits

Small squad inside often get overlooked

They are very flexible

 

Cons

Expensive

Easy to kill

Short Range

Other Marine codex's have better razor backs

Other Space Marine Codex's can put better troop choices in razorbacks

 

I've found where they really come into there own is when there are several of them next to a bigger threat such as a vindicator and they become a secondary threat. Every turn they stay alive the chances of those 4 shots making a difference becomes higher and higher and the chances of getting the rolls you need (it can hurt everything) get higher and higher!

 

Charlie

[Gunslinger87]

Next to a vindicator? Hmmm, while the AV13 might be tempting for those lascannons or railguns and such, people will still have their share of S7 or S6 weapons to target the razorback, without even having to forgo shooting at a different threat.

 

Razorbacks, in my opinion (and codex blood angels and their style of play seems to support it) work best when used in large numbers. THEN it is a question of prioritizing... add to that the occasional Land Raider or as you say Vindicator, and now the opponent has a dilemma. Target a razorback and yes, maybe kill it, maybe even two, and let the rest of the mech force by, or risk taking down that land raider when 3 razorbacks and a vindi are also charging ahead.

 

You need numbers to make your opponent think. If you give them a 50:50, well its a 50:50 for you as well.

[Grey Mage]

Con: Expensive as hell to build.

 

Pro: Effective against anything at 24"

 

Ive got the peices for one, and it sees some use- but overall I prefer the PG/LC combo for all around firepower- one fewer shot, but higher strength and the AP2 is guaranteed.

[Charliemachina]

In 1500pts i field three Assualt Razorbacks with two vindicators backed up by one chappy assualt squad to counter assault with and one Shrike alpha strike assualt squad to ease the pressure.

 

Cheers

 

Charlie

[Grey Mage]

Sounds like a blood angels list, and one that might work at that.

[Ryjak]

Keep in mind Assault Cannon Razorbacks want to stay 24" away from the enemy, and keep mobile, utilizing cover and LOS denial to limit incomming fire. Ideally, they'll have some mobile cover (Land Raider) to hide behind as well.

 

Unfortunately, not many squads would want to ride in a Razorback operating this way, so it's probably best to use it as a situational transport and more of a weapons platform.

[ShinyRhino]

The problem is that it can only move 6" if it wants to fire that turn. 24" is a respectable range, but can't really reach ut an touch the most vulnerable targets. The stuff that's coming forward into your range typically won't be put down by a S6, AP4 weapon.

I can see this buildout being pretty useful for a Kor'sarro Khan list, though. Load the Razors up with things like Sternguard, and outflank them. 24" range from a short edge can be useful, and you'll often hit side or rear armor with it, which increases its usefulness a ton. Backfield and flank units are often smaller, and softer. If the Sternguard dump out on arrival, they can add to the death with their variable ammo and combiweapons.

[Gothical]

I think they can work as a "flank guard" in a list, particularly if there are Land Raiders floating around.

 

The most common way to take out Land Raiders is to throw Land Speeders/Attack Bikes at them - having a pair of Twin-Linked Assault Cannons guarding your flank/Land Raider may be a big deterrent (or at the least, they can eliminate the Speeder after it has gone "flat out"). More potent than the Heavy Bolters in this role - and if they are slapped on the flank they can then roll up and take side-armour shots at vehicles (or draw firepower from other elements of the force).

 

I don't think I'd use the "Razorback Spam" lists that are around, but rather sprinkle them in to a Rhino-Mechanised force. Once you've added other armoured units such as Land Raiders or Vindicators, it gives the enemy some serious headaches about what to target.

[Jackelope King]

The problem is that it can only move 6" if it wants to fire that turn. 24" is a respectable range, but can't really reach ut an touch the most vulnerable targets. The stuff that's coming forward into your range typically won't be put down by a S6, AP4 weapon.

I can see this buildout being pretty useful for a Kor'sarro Khan list, though. Load the Razors up with things like Sternguard, and outflank them. 24" range from a short edge can be useful, and you'll often hit side or rear armor with it, which increases its usefulness a ton. Backfield and flank units are often smaller, and softer. If the Sternguard dump out on arrival, they can add to the death with their variable ammo and combiweapons.

More or less. Razorbacks with assault cannons need side-armor shots, where they can and will do fairly nicely. That means you either need fast Razorbacks (BA... in this case, you play more like mechdar than marines) or you need Khan (so you come in facing side armor anyway). I'm still a little leery of outflank to begin with, but a Khan-esque list could work.

 

EDIT: I much prefer Las/Plas razorbacks, for the reasons Grey Mage mentioned above.

[Koremu]

Best when combined with Land Speeders, and using the BA 'dex

[Charliemachina]

Ok new idea to get the C:SM Razorback assault cannon list to work.

 

3 Vindicators

3 Razorbacks with Assualt Cannons

3 5 Man Tac Squads

Tigerius

Shrike

1 Assault Squad + Thunderhammer

 

1500pts

 

Shrike and the assault squad give a highly flexible fast alpha or flank shock attack.

Tigerius as well as being pretty amazingly hard gives you huge control over deployment from reserve which in turn can be used to focus the power/survivability of the mech.

 

Also with three vindicators the three Razorbacks become a secondary target which is excellent given their deceptively strong hitting power over several turns.

 

View????

[Gothical]

Ok new idea to get the C:SM Razorback assault cannon list to work.

 

3 Vindicators

3 Razorbacks with Assualt Cannons

3 5 Man Tac Squads

Tigerius

Shrike

1 Assault Squad + Thunderhammer

 

1500pts

 

Shrike and the assault squad give a highly flexible fast alpha or flank shock attack.

Tigerius as well as being pretty amazingly hard gives you huge control over deployment from reserve which in turn can be used to focus the power/survivability of the mech.

 

Also with three vindicators the three Razorbacks become a secondary target which is excellent given their deceptively strong hitting power over several turns.

 

View????

 

I'm not certain that could work, but it might if played correctly.

 

Missile Launchers and Autocannons have a 48" range, which will take out the Razorbacks before they get a chance to do much. Melta weaponry will be directed at the Vindicators, or will fast-Assault units (Krak Grenades...urgh).

 

Shrike + Assault Squad wouldn't work, I feel - they'll be isolated and likely cut to ribbons by whatever counter-charge elements the opponent has. Tigrius offers a lot of flexibility, but if you are throwing everything in Reserve then the force may end up being dismantled piecemeal - particularly because there are no long-range threats to the enemy's force.

 

Khan would work better than Shrike in my opinion (all Razorbacks can then Outflank), and you need something long-ranged to try to knock out the enemy's anti-tank, and something to guard the Vindicators from being taken out by Bikes and Melta weaponry.

[Charliemachina]

I think it's definately a list to be played with thought.

 

I am aware of the glaring lack of long ranged weaponary but i've found Shrike's either first turn Alpha Strike or (Tigerius boosted for early intervention) outflank has incredible assualt reach and can cause horrific damage to an opponents back field or in an emergency come in anywhere else along a board edge.

 

Tigerius makes reserving a far more plannable prospect. I know things can still come in peicemeal but again you have a whole board edge to come in from and you can choose where to be.

 

The idea of Khan allowing the Razorbacks to outflank is feirce, I just love jump packs and have definately found them to do their job if used carefully.

 

Vindicators are vulnerable to melta but they are relatively cheap and while a 200pt squag is threatening them they are threatening to pie plate them back.

 

I feel comfortable looking at the list, think it's one to try on a few times before deciding if it fits.

[Gothical]

I think it's definately a list to be played with thought.

 

I'd argue that so is any Marine list, or 40K list in general. But I know what you mean.

 

I am aware of the glaring lack of long ranged weaponary but i've found Shrike's either first turn Alpha Strike or (Tigerius boosted for early intervention) outflank has incredible assualt reach and can cause horrific damage to an opponents back field or in an emergency come in anywhere else along a board edge.

 

That I wouldn't debate, but the trouble is in *this* list is that it is a single assault unit - given the rest of the army can be exploited at long-range, it means the Shrike unit (if Alpha-Striking) will suffer the brunt of a lot of short-range firepower, and if Outflanking it will come in fairly isolated of support, and taking TH/SS Terminators to the face, or Banshees or something similar like that. Or from a Leman Russ, which in the current list cannot be prevented from firing effectively (30" range Assault Cannons/Demolishers, yes - but terrain will get in the way of LOS to those guns)

 

With more Assault units in the army, or a very fast supporting unit like Bikers, the Shrike unit becomes a lot more valid in that role, but going it alone is asking for trouble. Especially for such a points-intensive unit.

 

Tigerius makes reserving a far more plannable prospect. I know things can still come in peicemeal but again you have a whole board edge to come in from and you can choose where to be.

 

Yup, if you hold the army in reserve, and the elements on the board are taken out, you lose the game. With no long-range firepower of your own, the army is incredibly susceptible to either an opponent's long-range units, or very fast-moving Melta squads like Land Speeders. If you start with *everything* in reserve and keep re-rolling (and are lucky to not get anything to come on in the first 1-2 turns) you can force some difficult target choices for the enemy, but without the Outflank rule your units are going to be coming on from the home board-edge - not a place you want to be with short-ranged weaponry. Without the Outflank rule, it may be better skipping Tigrius altogether to get a unit that can support the Assault Squad or some long-ranged capability of your own.

 

The idea of Khan allowing the Razorbacks to outflank is feirce, I just love jump packs and have definately found them to do their job if used carefully.

 

Khan would make the army work a lot better in my opinion - the Assault Squad can arrive backed up by a Razorback-squad or two, giving it a lot more punch - especially if rolling onto the flank. Assault Marines can be excellent units (even if they are often decried as "weak" on the internet), that isn't what I was getting at. The trouble is that they are alone (especially if coming from the side of the board via Outflank, and not the back edge), and a unit going alone is dead in 40K. If you switch to Khan, I'd be tempted to keep Tigrius (even though it is a lot of points invested in the HQ slot) because then the army can be held in reserve and roll in, in decent numbers, from the side/rear-edges of the table, which is beneficial to the short-ranged nature of the force.

 

Though I may advise avoiding Vindicators if going that route, as they cannot Outflank - so suffer the same problem of rolling up from your own table edge, keeping their firepower out of the battle even longer. Having some Predators that are Obscured may offer better effects for early firepower, until the Outflanking units can come in and hit the enemy from behind.

 

Vindicators are vulnerable to melta but they are relatively cheap and while a 200pt squag is threatening them they are threatening to pie plate them back.

 

They do, but the trouble is Bike Squads can turbo-boost to gain a cover save (good luck killing them off) and Land Speeders are going to be hard to hit with the Demolisher shell...and can get a cover-save too.

 

I feel comfortable looking at the list, think it's one to try on a few times before deciding if it fits.

 

That's your prerogative. I think it would function better with Khan instead of Shrike, as Khan gives the ability to give the Assault Squad some support, enabling it to achieve far more than running solo with Shrike.

[Charliemachina]

I think you make some really strong points.

 

The fact Shrike and the boys will be isolated is a clear thing for me to think about and I think can be countered "again" by careful thought for example the Alpha strike against Tau or Guard would really hurt them against Orks or Space Wolves or Tyranids it's targets of opportunity would be reduced. When I think of the mess even one monsterous creature or a squad of even normal terminators would make of them I shudder!!!

 

Terrain I don't think i've thought enough about or more exactly I havn't though enough about how my opponent can use terrain against me.

 

I've found with the short range of this mech using smoke when I am aware of an impending threat that cannot be addressed migrates some of the danger and buys me a turn to close especially if it's used across the line.

 

Your points regarding the preadators and Khan.....I can fully see the advantages especially the Khan/Assaultback combo for side and rear shots on mech.

 

I'm going to stick with the list, I like it and it feels like i'd enjoy playing it even if getting spanked!

 

Your advice has been really helpful!

 

Cheers Charlie

[Jackelope King]

Remove Tigerus from that list. Now. He's not worth the page he's printed on. Even more overpriced than Papa Smurf himself.

[Grey Mage]

... and back to our origional programming.

 

Lets see, I think theres three fundamental issues to overcome here:

 

1) Five man Tactical Squads, suck.

 

2) Razorbacks with Weapon Upgrades are expensive.

 

3) Short Range firepower has to wade through long range firepower to get where its going.

 

I think combining a halfassed troops choice with an expensive transport is not how to solve this issue- especially when its relatively fragile for the amount of firepower it represents, and difficult to bring enough to truely cut down on the enemy firepower.

 

So, the question becomes how do we tie up enemy firepower, or eliminate it at range, reliably? Especially given the variety of enemy heavy weapon teams and tanks that are out there accross the universe. More to the point, how do we make such an army work on the open field, when its designed for the infighting of cities?

 

I think these are the issues, and the questions, that we need to face to get this to work- Im going to meditate on this and post back later.

[Charliemachina]

I egarly await your thoughts!!!

 

Cheers

 

Charlie

[Koremu]

Remove Tigerus from that list. Now. He's not worth the page he's printed on. Even more overpriced than Papa Smurf himself.

I like tiggy, but he's only worth using in Reserve-Critical lists.

 

Awesome in one of those though.

[ShinyRhino]

Doesn't Tiggy have to be on the table for his reserves rules to kick in?

[Koremu]

Doesn't Tiggy have to be on the table for his reserves rules to kick in?

I don't believe so.

[Charliemachina]

Just had a 1500pt game capture and contol Dawn of war against a marine list with drop Lysander and Sternguard, 2 foot dreds, two tac squads, a vindicator and pedro.

 

Highlights

3 Razorbacks and 3 Vindicators driving on in the first turn (I went second) and blowing apart a drop pod, tactical squad and sternguard squad all on my home objective.

Tigerius used Null zone to allow a vinidcator to one shot kill Pedro and the Shrike Squad to kill Lysander in one turn (Lysander took Shrike with him)

Tigerius smited the remenants of the tac squad on my home objective and then ran into the combat between my opponents venerable dreadnaught and my assault squad and put up quickening and might of ancients and then smashed it to peices.

 

End score was my objective secure his contested!

 

Lessons learned:

Tigerius wan absolutely man of the match supporting other troops in doing what they do and proving to be a killing machine in his own right.....hugely flexible and the re-roll on reserves brings the cavalry just when needed.

Three vindicators is amazing but the fewer targets there are or the more spread out they become the smaller the impact they make.

5 Man tactical squads are very vulnerable to retaliation but jumping them in and out of razorbacks means they hit relatively hard with rapid fire and while in a razorback are pretty survivable.

Vehicles without weapons can be used as mobile cover.

The assualt squad and Shrike are good as a rescue unit once the tanks are begining to be advanced on.

I will struggle to put multiple wounds on targets that cannot be instant killed.

Assualt cannons firing consistently for multiple turns can make a big impact but they struggle to have the decisive hit if you need to put somthing down in one turn.

Fleet from shrike gives your infantry a surpising ability to get where needed to support other assaults.

The list has multiple redundency, in that it can still do what is required of it with the loss of any of it's component parts.

5 Man tactical squads out of a razorback have little to no chance of pushing a unit off an objective, holding an objective or even contesting an objective if they have to last more than a turn.

 

Thoughs please

 

Charlie