Codex Marines - a mobile/mechanised gunline?

[Gothical]

+EDIT: I have re-written this post to be a bit more coherent, and changed the title to reflect my thoughts a little more.+

 

In attempting to create a list that I am happy with for my Salamanders, I have come to some conclusions:

 

1) Short-ranged firepower is one hell of a fun list to play, and the Marines are ideally suited to this type of play.

 

2) Gunlines are way too static to function properly in 5th Edition in my opinion (or rather, in my gaming area). And you tend to miss out on the short-ranged firepower.

 

3) There must be a way to combine the two ideas.

 

That is what this thread is about. How to create a (in terms of offensive capabilities) gunline army, that has good mobility through mechanisation.

 

For those who prefer to think is such terms, I suppose you could refer to it as an "Earth/Fire force", in that firepower (albeit short-ranged) and resilience (Transports give relative immunity to small-arms fire) give you the "earth" element; and the mobility and aggressive playstyle gives the "fire" element...though of course I could have got the wrong end of the stick in regards to the terminology ("air" is not appropriate for the force as it is slow by comparison, and nor is "water" - it's more aggressive than reactionary...but "earth" tends to imply static and "fire" tends to imply close-combat)

 

I've got no idea, and so I'm asking for help. What I have observed is that:

 

A] "Razorback Spam" is not ideal - 5-man units don't cut it with the amount of death available on the tabletop these days, and the vitality of Troops to winning the game. This also tends to rely on the long-ranged power of the Razorback upgrades and not the short-ranged wall of lead a full Tactical Squad can provide. The main reason this fails (in my area at least) is:

 

B] No matter how many Razorbacks you have, you cannot out-shoot the Guard or the Tau - so the army list needs to be flexible enough to switch from blasting the enemy apart with bolters and special weapons to beating in the faces of weak troops. The Marines' flexibility is ideal for this type of warfare too.

 

C] Counter-charge is a vital aspect of these armies (and can be used offensively against weaker forces), however the Land Raider + TH/SS Terminator trick takes away too many points from the firepower sections of the army, and is horribly vulnerable to the copious amounts of Melta weaponry around these days. I am thinking that regular Terminators (reactionary) and Assault Squads/lightly-upgraded Vanguard could actually have a use in this style of force, providing "clean-up" combat ability without costing the earth.

 

So yes, how do you go about creating a mechanised/mobile "gunline" force?

 

I feel that an army that can roll up in Rhinos supported by Razorbacks (under covering fire from MBTs/Dreadnoughts), and yet still contain reactionary elements (Deepstrike Terminators, Land Speeders, Bike Squads - things that can (re)position quickly to take advantage of weak-spots in the enemy army or counter their counter-attack plans) and Assault units to protect your own firepower could be a very effective way of running a Marine force.

 

For the first time since the Codex was released, I am actually looking at the usefulness of Chronus - the ability to ignore Shaken/Stunned is huge when you need firepower (especially if you want mobile firepower); and the concept of a "combi" predator sitting at range with deadly-accurate Autocannon/Lascannon ripping up heavy tanks, or a "dakka" predator rolling round shredding transports and hordes, is something that appeals immensely with this type of force (particularly when combined with other armoured threats, like Dreadnoughts, Typhoons or Vindicators for targeting problems for the foe).

 

But the trouble is I am floundering a bit on how to include all of the support elements into a cohesive army. Are there any strategy articles floating around that could advise me on this type of army (I have searched but come up with precious little); or does anyone have any tips for this sort of force?

[Grey Mage]

Well theres always drop pods.....

 

That being said, a Pair of Vindicators makes a marvelous spearhead, flanked by a pair of Razorbacks and backed up by 2-3 Tactical squads in rhinos. Putting Sterngaurd in the Razorbacks for firepower, Deepstriking TDA with an Assault Cannon for the third elite choice. FA? Probly a pair of Landspeeder Typhoons.

 

Yeah... I like it. So, I cant find my C:SM, but going off memory:

 

Vulkan Hestan- 170pts.

 

6 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 2x C-M, Razorback (L/P)- 260pts.

6 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 2x C-M, Razorback (L/P)- 260pts.

5 TDA- Assault Cannon, Chain Fist- 235pts.

 

10 Tacticals- Powerfist, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- Powerfist, Meltagun, Multimelta, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- Plasmagun, Missile Launcher, Powerfist, Rhino- 240pts.

10 Scouts- C-M, PF, 9x BP+CCW- 185pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Landraider- MM- 260pts.

 

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

2500pts.

 

Thoughts?

[Zynk Kaladin]

Wouldn't assualt termies benefit more from Vulkan than tactical termies? Those hammers are master crafted with him, after all. You can still get the "rolling gunline" without the tac termies.

 

Drop pods + multimelta/heavy flamer dreads are your friend :)

 

EDIT: I'd like to see tac termies used more, but a vulkan list really gets more from the assualt termies imo

[Grey Mage]

I dunno, its harder to get behind Assault TDA deep striking in, because they cant reduce the fire that theyll take with shots of their own.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Oh, I didn't read what you said. I just assumed the landraider would be carrying termies :\

[Gothical]

Well theres always drop pods.....

 

That being said, a Pair of Vindicators makes a marvelous spearhead, flanked by a pair of Razorbacks and backed up by 2-3 Tactical squads in rhinos. Putting Sterngaurd in the Razorbacks for firepower, Deepstriking TDA with an Assault Cannon for the third elite choice. FA? Probly a pair of Landspeeder Typhoons.

 

Yeah... I like it. So, I cant find my C:SM, but going off memory:

 

Vulkan Hestan- 170pts.

 

6 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 2x C-M, Razorback (L/P)- 260pts.

6 Sterngaurd- Powerfist, 2x C-M, Razorback (L/P)- 260pts.

5 TDA- Assault Cannon, Chain Fist- 235pts.

 

10 Tacticals- Powerfist, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- Powerfist, Meltagun, Multimelta, Rhino- 235pts.

10 Tacticals- Plasmagun, Missile Launcher, Powerfist, Rhino- 240pts.

10 Scouts- C-M, PF, 9x BP+CCW- 185pts.

 

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Vindicator- Dozerblade- 120pts.

Landraider- MM- 260pts.

 

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

2500pts.

 

Thoughts?

 

Hm, I quite like that idea, it's the kind of thing I had in mind. It's something for me to mull over, but it occurs to me that my ideas might not be able to fit into playable games (we can play to 2000 points maximum in my local shop, so I tend to aim for an army at around that size, and then work out how to reduce it to fit whatever games my opponent wants to play).

 

++

 

I've been able to put my thoughts more eloquently, so I'm going to edit the original post to better reflect what I am getting at.

[Gothical]

Thinking about my army lists I have used in the past, I have noticed several issues: I have been trying to attack across too wide an area, my fire-support is not up to scratch (meaning my Rhinos get taken out easily) and getting Scoring units into the army is incredibly difficult.

 

Devastators are a fluffy Salamander unit, so I want to shoehorn them in. I had some fun with a 10-man unit, 4 Missiles in a Rhino with HKM - as an "alpha-strike" unit it was entertaining, as when "Combat Squads" are taken into account I could hit 2-3 vehicles at once, either destroying them or preventing them firing.

 

They're costly at 275 points, making me want to look at cheaper options - but given that the weaknesses in previous army lists was trying to attack over too wide a frontage (I'd run 2x10-man Tactical Squads up the middle with an Assault Squad (all Rhinos), and flank with 2x5-man Tactical Squads and Command Squad (all Razorbacks)). That is something I need to remedy with the short-range firepower tactic. I am thinking that having a large, split Devastator squad at the back of the board may just do it, as it can use long-range firepower to prevent any attack I do (likely down a flank to compensate for a lack of numbers) being flanked itself.

 

Predators look excellent, and fit in well with the Mech theme; however I am wondering if Vindicators may be better due to the fact they draw more firepower - particularly if I mount anti-vehicle weapons on Dreadnoughts. Yet the last time I used Vindicators I wasn't too enamoured with them, as they lost their cannons and sat around fairly uselessly.

 

Another factor that has come up in trying to make this sort of tactic work, is a lack of scoring units. When the long-ranged options are considered points get very tight to fit more than 2x10-man Tactical squads in - which is a dire situation at 2000 points. I have been looking at some 5-man units in Razorbacks, but they lack firepower for this tactic to work in my opinion. However, to increase the number of scoring units, do you think that a 5-man unit supported by 2 Dreadnoughts might be an idea (or alternately 2x5-man units supporting 1 Dreadnought) - they could act as long-range firepower with the right upgrades, and have the ability to claim objectives too. However this seems to smack a lot of "attacking across too wide a front" that I have had an issue with in the past.

 

Any ideas?

[Jackelope King]

Predators look excellent, and fit in well with the Mech theme; however I am wondering if Vindicators may be better due to the fact they draw more firepower - particularly if I mount anti-vehicle weapons on Dreadnoughts. Yet the last time I used Vindicators I wasn't too enamoured with them, as they lost their cannons and sat around fairly uselessly.

I'm not a proponent of Vindicators, or any vehicle that can be rendered utterly useless and basically dead on a glancing hit (and a penetrating hit on a Vindicator is basically a death sentence for it). Preds tend to do more damage, from longer range, for cheaper.

[Gothical]

I'm not a proponent of Vindicators, or any vehicle that can be rendered utterly useless and basically dead on a glancing hit (and a penetrating hit on a Vindicator is basically a death sentence for it). Preds tend to do more damage, from longer range, for cheaper.

 

When you say that Predators can do it cheaper, does that mean you are a fan of the "Dakka" predator? Because the "Combi" is the same price.

 

Normally I steer clear of the AC/HB version, as I am not sure how much damage the Autocannon can acutally do - I use them a lot in my Guard army, and they are OK but not excellent - though of course I am dealing with a reduced Ballistic Skill which may be a large factor in the equation.

 

Do you think that Chronus could be a good investment in a force such as this? The idea of a Predator that cannot be "stun-locked" is kind of appealing, but he does cost a fortune (almost as much as another [cheap] Predator.

[Jackelope King]

When you say that Predators can do it cheaper, does that mean you are a fan of the "Dakka" predator? Because the "Combi" is the same price.

 

Normally I steer clear of the AC/HB version, as I am not sure how much damage the Autocannon can acutally do - I use them a lot in my Guard army, and they are OK but not excellent - though of course I am dealing with a reduced Ballistic Skill which may be a large factor in the equation.

 

Do you think that Chronus could be a good investment in a force such as this? The idea of a Predator that cannot be "stun-locked" is kind of appealing, but he does cost a fortune (almost as much as another [cheap] Predator.

Correct. I like the Autocannon with Heavy Bolter Sponsons configuration because it's so darn cheap, and gives me 8 chances to dish out wounds on a good turn.

 

Autocannons sit in the same sort of happy middle that Krak Missiles do. A loss of a point of S and AP is the trade-off for an extra shot per turn, and S7-8 is where you want to be when you're targeting light armor. Because of the long range, you can reach out and pop transports on turn 1 with either Autocannons or Missile Launchers, taking the upper hand quickly.

 

The Autocannons also have a high enough S to continually threaten most anything that walks around on foot. Tyranid MCs don't like being wounded on 3s, especially when you get two chances to do it per turn. No standard infantry models like having Autocannon shells blasting into their squads (wound on 2s, and make anything with armor lighter than Power Armor just 'splode). They have enough range and rate of fire to be invaluable in helping thin out exposed squads on foot.

 

Not only that, but the "Dakka" configuration has a ton of resilience in a cheap package. They just don't care about Vehicle Damage Table results that cripple the Vindicator (Weapon Destroyed? Forget about it... I've got two more guns where that came from. Immobilized? Sure... I've got the range to tough it out), which is a huge boost to resilience, especially since they basically laugh off the Glancing Hits table (and that's the best that a lot of weapons can hope for, shooting at Front Armor Value 13).

 

And again, 8 shots per turn. They wound Tyranid MCs on 5s and 3s. They wound most infantry on 2s and 3s. Multiply this by 3. Now you have 24 shots per turn. That will erase most infantry squads. Heck, that'll blow away half a squad of Space Marines with just a little luck.

 

...

 

As far as Chronus is concerned, he's just too darn expensive. I can't fathom using him in anything short of an Apocalypse game driving a Titan that I don't own :D

[Koremu]

Chronus can only drive tanks.

 

But he is worth it. BS5 and immunity to shaken and stunned. You have to remember that the Immunity to shaken and stunned is very similar in effect ta having an extra +1 AV all round

 

He's best used in a combi though

[Gothical]

Hm, I may have to take a new look at "Dakka" Predators then.

 

Chronus could be a good investment if I can afford him. 2 "Dakka" Predators and a Chronus-driven "Combi" would be an awful lot of potent, mobile firepower.

 

On a related note, I am musing over a (somewhat expensive) idea. Do you think that 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts and a Chronus-driven tank could be a good investment? It's hugely expensive (compared to the standard versions of the same, it's an extra 190pts - i.e. a Tactical Squad) but it would give me 3 platforms for firepower that are going to be tough to take out - the re-roll preventing "Destroyed" results on the Venerables, and Chronus preventing "Shaken/Stunned" on the Predator.

 

If I were to throw in, say, a Land Raider I could have some incredibly resilient vehicles (I am thinking that the resilience will help draw even more firepower from the Rhino-mounted squads)...but then more numbers might have a similar effect.

[Grey Mage]

Reposted from another thread, to this one where it SHOULD be.

 

... and back to our origional programming.

 

Lets see, I think theres three fundamental issues to overcome here:

 

1) Five man Tactical Squads, suck.

 

2) Razorbacks with Weapon Upgrades are expensive.

 

3) Short Range firepower has to wade through long range firepower to get where its going.

 

I think combining a halfassed troops choice with an expensive transport is not how to solve this issue- especially when its relatively fragile for the amount of firepower it represents, and difficult to bring enough to truely cut down on the enemy firepower.

 

So, the question becomes how do we tie up enemy firepower, or eliminate it at range, reliably? Especially given the variety of enemy heavy weapon teams and tanks that are out there accross the universe. More to the point, how do we make such an army work on the open field, when its designed for the infighting of cities?

 

I think these are the issues, and the questions, that we need to face to get this to work- Im going to meditate on this and post back later.

[norngahl]

Hi there.

 

Next to my "Drop Pod Bodies" Army with loads of tacticals I have been toying around with a mechanized force with max machines and less bodies.

 

This is what came around:

Libby with TDA and Shield, Vortex and Nullzone 140

Dreadnought with TL-autocannon, Plasmacannon, Extra Armor 140

Dreadnought with TL-autocannon, Plasmacannon, Extra Armor 140

Dreadnought with TL-autocannon, Plasmacannon, Extra Armor 140

5 Marines in Razorback with TL-MM, Extra Armor (IA2) 145

5 Marines in Razorback with TL-MM, Extra Armor (IA2) 145

5 Marines in Razorback with Lascannon/Plasmagun, Extra Armor 180

5 Marines in Razorback with Lascannon/Plasmagun, Extra Armor 180

3 Landspeeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers 270

3 Landspeeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers 270

3 Landspeeder with Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers 270

Thunderfire Cannon 100

Thunderfire Cannon 100

Land Raider Godhammer, Extra Armor, MM 275

= 2500

 

Basic 1000 are:

Libby with TDA and Shield, Vortex and Nullzone 140

Dreadnought with TL-autocannon, Plasmacannon 125

Dreadnought with TL-autocannon, Plasmacannon 125

5 Marines in Razorback with TL-MM (IA2) 130

5 Marines in Razorback with TL-MM (IA2) 130

Thunderfire Cannon 100

Land Raider Godhammer 250

 

Libby is an obvious choice, razorbacks because of heavy weapons. TFC dish out a lot of damage, even more if you field a mech force where target overload is the goal and the enemy thinks twice about shooting at a 3+ cover save target while the rest of the mech force gain less hits.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Im going to meditate on this and post back later.

 

May the Force be with you, Grey Mage.

 

Really, the best long range support platforms you should consider when working with a short range army are typhoons. The idea behind them is that your enemy will:

 

A ) Be more worried about your vindicators

 

B ) Have a tough time killing the typhoons if you position them tactfully

 

C ) Have to adapt to deal with either them, or the army driving full speed towards them.

 

Typhoons are also very flexible and very mobile. They can knock out anything under a landraider's armor value with ease, considering you will more than likely make use of those juicy side armor shots. The idea is to take 2 squads of 2 typhoons and place each squad in a different corner of your deployment zone. It is almost impossible for your enemy to position their vehicles to get front armor because you are hitting them at 2 different angles. Also, you can move into position before firing, which further aids you in sniping side armor. Typhoons can also knock out infantry and heavy infantry if needed.

 

I'd also get some mm/hf landspeeders for a more fire based approach at taking out your enemy's landraiders. Fly right up to him and melt away :cry: Works well with a vulkan list.

 

EDIT: added an adjective

[Grey Mage]

Im going to meditate on this and post back later.

 

May the Force be with you, Grey Mage.

:(

 

Seriously, its more of a challenge with C:SM then it is with C:SW, where one has 30 or 45 Fenrisian Wolves to tie up the enemy if you so choose.

 

Or C:BA where fast rhinos means your up close and personal far sooner than otherwise.

 

Your right though, typhoons, among other things, do add alot of flex to any army list. Still, the OP specificly requested there be little, if any, fast attack in this Salamanders army. Wich I can understand for reasons of fluff.

 

Drop Pods in a combined arms force might be the answer. A single Tactical Squad in a DP for late game deployment and a pair of Dreads with HFs, EA, and MM or AC coming down turn one gives alot of flexability and lets you surgically remove a couple of the large threats and gives a definite in your face distraction for the enemy. However, it does take points away from the gunline itself, and may deny you shots at important artillery peices if your dreads fail to get the job done.

 

Khan is a viable option, but Im aware most people play on a larger board than I do, and so outflanking may be more detrimental to them.

 

One option that would certainly ease the pressure on your army vs any opponent would be 5 scouts with a powerfist in a storm with a HF. It runs 160pts, and is a staple of my small C:SM bike army. Why? Because first turn assaults, deepstrike misshaps, and good all around killyness is always good. Its also scoring, wich makes it harder to ignore in most games. The problem of course, is that this leads us back to the fast attack arena.

 

Wich is unfortunate, because FA is usually my solution to this problem.

 

Delving further, we can see that scouts are cheap, infiltratable, and capable of being well armed for their size. While in general I prefer BP+CCW scouts, two units of 10 Bolter scouts with a C-M on the sarge could be very viable as forward skirmish units, potentially even combat squadded in games with sufficient cover so as to get more flexability on their firepower, or perhaps get off multiple assaults early in the game- say with Shrikes fleet abilities.

 

For about 300pts for 20 scouts and a pair of C-Ms, it certainly adds alot of numbers, and alot of rapid firing bolter shots, wich is always helpful. On the plus side against enemies like Nidz and Orks you dont have to deploy forward, and if there isnt any good cover you can have upwards of 4 combat squading outflankers to threaten the opponent with, hopefully channeling him to the middle where your vindicators can throw down some punishment on him.

[Gothical]

I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughts thus far. It's giving me a lot to think about.

 

 

Your right though, typhoons, among other things, do add alot of flex to any army list. Still, the OP specificly requested there be little, if any, fast attack in this Salamanders army. Wich I can understand for reasons of fluff.

 

++

 

One option that would certainly ease the pressure on your army vs any opponent would be 5 scouts with a powerfist in a storm with a HF. It runs 160pts, and is a staple of my small C:SM bike army. Why? Because first turn assaults, deepstrike misshaps, and good all around killyness is always good. Its also scoring, wich makes it harder to ignore in most games. The problem of course, is that this leads us back to the fast attack arena.

 

Wich is unfortunate, because FA is usually my solution to this problem.

 

Sorry for the snip, but I'd just like to say I am not totally opposed to taking Fast Attack units - they are still fielded, just not in large concentrations. Throwing in some Typhoons or Storms is not out of the question.

 

Scouts could be a really good idea - for some reason I forgot about Outflank, as I had been wondering how to otherwise justify them in a Mechanised list (given that I'd be restricted to 5-man units in Storms). A bit of a fluff-bodge to say they've left their Scout Bikes off somewhere whilst observing, and I could sneak them into the army (Outflanking to represent their bikes getting them ahead of the army).

 

On that subjects, Scouts + Storm are regularly seen as a good combination, how do Scout Bikes stack up? Fast-moving, long-assault Meltabombs/Krak Grenades, and the ability to call down Terminators to support them seems pretty good, and could work with the short-ranged doctrine I have in mind. Of course they're not scoring, which is one reason to look at Scouts in the first place...

[Zynk Kaladin]

Still, the OP specificly requested there be little, if any, fast attack in this Salamanders army. Wich I can understand for reasons of fluff.

 

I REALLY need to improve my reading comprehension :D

 

Ok, a non-fast attack alternative is the combi-predator. It may be more expensive than a dakka pred, but it'll tear through any troublesome tank or tie them up until your close up elements get in there.