something i noticed while reading the codex

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

ok, so the argument about whether dante IS 1100yrs old or has been chapter master for 1100yrs, is settled if you read dante's entry in the new codex. last line or two of the first paragraph, it says 'even captain lysander who was trapped in the warp for a millennia cannot recall a time when dante did not rule supreme over the blood angels'

now unless dante became chapter master within his first 100yrs this would mean that dante is well over 1100 years, and also most likely the oldest cannon space marine alive.

[Valtonis]

well i had a thread on whose the oldest SM.

and the replies were, the numerous Chaos Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Space Wolf 13th Company.

 

an someone saying he don't remember, doesn't mean anything.

he might have forgotten, gotten hit in the head and had a mild form of amnesia, selective recall or just couldn't be bothered to remember

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I actually think living most of one's time in the Warp is literally cheating when it comes to age.

The Chaos Space Marines and SW 13th Company might have been around during the Horus Heresy, but who says they actually experienced all the time between then and now? For some it might even be that in their experience they were in the Warp for mere months when they came out again, such is the nature of the warp.

 

Dante is the only one who can claim to have been chapter master over a millenia without needing to enter the warp and all the time mumbo jumbo happening there to do so. He is therefore the oldest living Space Marine who can actually claim having experienced the days since his birth untill the current day.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

not to mention a dreadnought is about alive as the emperor.

 

dante is the oldest living marine that hasn't spent the majority of his life in the warp, and there is nothing in lysander's fluff that says anything about amnesia or bad memory in his fluff unless i missed something. that line was specifically put into his entry to verify the length of time he served as chapter master.

[Claws of Corax]

I would argue that Chaos Marines are not oldest marines... Agreed they may remember a time many millenia past, but that does not necessarily meant they have lived that whole time in real space.. We all know (or should know) that the warp has a different flow of time, what could be a month to the warp, hundred of years past.. or any combination you can think of. That leads to the point that they may have lived hundreds of years total, but in real space millenia have past. It is purely subjective (From whose perspectivedo you age the marine) ..

 

As for Lysander "saying he don't remember, doesn't mean anything.

he might have forgotten, gotten hit in the head and had a mild form of amnesia, selective recall or just couldn't be bothered to remember"

 

Captains and Chapter masters make it a point to know the high ranking officers of other chapters so that they can make proper politness to them should they ever meet on the same field of battle. Especially first founding chapters like Imperial Fists and Blood Angels. You can imagine if Lysander had been at Armegeddon... Calgar and Tu Shan to Dante... You are the boss. Lysander to Dante.. Who are you?

 

Dreadnaughts dont count as living in the minds of the astartes. This is due to the codex astartes stating the structure of codex chapters as 1000 marines(Excluding dreadnaughts) . They are considered to be outside the normal command structure, but still follow orders of officers.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I would argue that Chaos Marines are not oldest marines... Agreed they may remember a time many millenia past, but that does not necessarily meant they have lived that whole time in real space.. We all know (or should know) that the warp has a different flow of time, what could be a month to the warp, hundred of years past.. or any combination you can think of. That leads to the point that they may have lived hundreds of years total, but in real space millenia have past. It is purely subjective (From whose perspectivedo you age the marine) ..

 

As for Lysander "saying he don't remember, doesn't mean anything.

he might have forgotten, gotten hit in the head and had a mild form of amnesia, selective recall or just couldn't be bothered to remember"

 

Captains and Chapter masters make it a point to know the high ranking officers of other chapters so that they can make proper politness to them should they ever meet on the same field of battle. Especially first founding chapters like Imperial Fists and Blood Angels. You can imagine if Lysander had been at Armegeddon... Calgar and Tu Shan to Dante... You are the boss. Lysander to Dante.. Who are you?

 

Dreadnaughts dont count as living in the minds of the astartes. This is due to the codex astartes stating the structure of codex chapters as 1000 marines(Excluding dreadnaughts) . They are considered to be outside the normal command structure, but still follow orders of officers.

thank you corax...but that did provide a rather entertainingly awkward moment in my mind.

 

"no seriously guys....who's the sparkly old man?"

[Brother-Chaplain Apock]

Dreadnaughts dont count as living in the minds of the astartes. This is due to the codex astartes stating the structure of codex chapters as 1000 marines(Excluding dreadnaughts) . They are considered to be outside the normal command structure, but still follow orders of officers.

 

The Chapter Master of the Blood Swords is a Dreadnought. (Though this is according to the novels)

 

I think they very much count as living. I don't have the exact page number but it has been said that Dante consults the Ancients (Dreadnoughts) of our chapter before making major chapter decisions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dreadnaughts dont count as living in the minds of the astartes. This is due to the codex astartes stating the structure of codex chapters as 1000 marines(Excluding dreadnaughts) . They are considered to be outside the normal command structure, but still follow orders of officers.

 

The Chapter Master of the Blood Swords is a Dreadnought. (Though this is according to the novels)

 

I think they very much count as living. I don't have the exact page number but it has been said that Dante consults the Ancients (Dreadnoughts) of our chapter before making major chapter decisions.

just because he consults them doesn't mean they're technically alive. stasis/life support/spending their time in the warp is all cheating.

 

the dreadnoughts are the only ones that have been around even close to as long as he has, and even most of were led by dante before being interred i'll betcha. he also consults mephiston, and corbs before making major decisions doesn't mean they're older than he is.

 

not to mention once interred in a dreadnought you're now a machine part, and most dreads aren't even powered up between fights.

[Brother-Chaplain Apock]

just because he consults them doesn't mean they're technically alive. stasis/life support/spending their time in the warp is all cheating.

 

the dreadnoughts are the only ones that have been around even close to as long as he has, and even most of were led by dante before being interred i'll betcha. he also consults mephiston, and corbs before making major decisions doesn't mean they're older than he is.

 

not to mention once interred in a dreadnought you're now a machine part, and most dreads aren't even powered up between fights.

 

Cheating?

 

I'm not trying to hijack your thread with this but as we're on the subject of dreadnoughts here goes:

From the Dreadnought entry from the BA codex: Whilst a Dreadnought might look like a walking tank, it is more properly described as a suit of armor, for it serves as an artificial body for its pilot..

There is mention of Furioso's bearing the scars of the battle of the emperors palace ten millennia ago, though it doesn't say if the pilots are the same.

however under the Furioso section it says this: All furiosos are living relics, reminders of the Blood Angels' glorious past and living repositories of tradition.

 

The pilot of a dreadnought are very much alive, as per the powered up or interned in stasis question, I have always been under the impression that the only dreads that are in a forced stasis situation are the DC Dreads.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

just because he consults them doesn't mean they're technically alive. stasis/life support/spending their time in the warp is all cheating.

 

the dreadnoughts are the only ones that have been around even close to as long as he has, and even most of were led by dante before being interred i'll betcha. he also consults mephiston, and corbs before making major decisions doesn't mean they're older than he is.

 

not to mention once interred in a dreadnought you're now a machine part, and most dreads aren't even powered up between fights.

 

Cheating?

 

I'm not trying to hijack your thread with this but as we're on the subject of dreadnoughts here goes:

From the Dreadnought entry from the BA codex: Whilst a Dreadnought might look like a walking tank, it is more properly described as a suit of armor, for it serves as an artificial body for its pilot..

There is mention of Furioso's bearing the scars of the battle of the emperors palace ten millennia ago, though it doesn't say if the pilots are the same.

however under the Furioso section it says this: All furiosos are living relics, reminders of the Blood Angels' glorious past and living repositories of tradition.

 

The pilot of a dreadnought are very much alive, as per the powered up or interned in stasis question, I have always been under the impression that the only dreads that are in a forced stasis situation are the DC Dreads.

if you're on life support of course you'll live forever, but the point is as a dreadnought you are no longer a space marine in the traditional sense. hell toss a regular person nowadays on life support and you can extend their life span months even years. other than space wolves players you're the only one who seems to count dreadnoughts in this.

 

edit

"so does he cast off a frail mortal frame for something greater and more difficle. so does he become a dreadnought" pg 65 space marine codex

"a dreadnought is a truly massive fighting MACHINE, weighing several tons." pg 65 space marine codex

[Brother-Chaplain Apock]

other than space wolves players you're the only one who seems to count dreadnoughts in this.

 

I would disagree that myself and the Wolves' are the only ones who think this way. Even in the codex it plainly states that the pilot of a dreadnought is alive. Without a pilot a dreadnought is nothing more than a massive suit of armor.

 

As for the oldest living marine question, I would ask what everyone thinks about The Sanguinator. Under his entry in the codex it describes what occurred on the Night Lords Battle Barge Terrorclaw where it says in not so many words that the one survivor of that mission was Dante when he was a Sergeant. Some people have theorized that The Sanguinator is Azkaellon, the only Sanguinary Guard to survive the Heresy.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: Page 29 BA Codex: All furiosos are LIVING relics, reminders of the Blood Angels' glorious past and LIVING repositories of tradition.

 

Page 65 Sm Codex: those within whom the spark of life and honor still burns bright though their body be rent and torn are preserved from final rest.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

Whilst I believe that the thread has been hijacked into dreads - living or machine (personally I think its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other) there is evidence that normal dreads are put into an almost stasis like state to preserve them.

 

Space Wolf codex entry for Bjorn, "At the dawn of each new century Bjorn is roused from his long sleep to hold court at the great feast"

[Brother-Chaplain Apock]

Whilst I believe that the thread has been hijacked into dreads

 

I kinda did that, and didn't mean to hijack your original thread Inquisitor Lensoven, so if you feel like I have done so I do apologize. I did think that it was relevant to the topic though as I think Dread pilots are living marines which could have affected the whole " Oldest living Marine" subject.

[bulley]

I think a couple have missed the point.

 

The OP is stating that you have the years that Dantes been the head honcho - PLUS the time he's taken to get there, and I doubt that was a quick ride ...

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Agreed Bulley, Dante could be well over 1500 years old considering the longivety of Blood Angels.

 

About the Sanguinor, that is indeed a rumor. But, he will again follow under the 'Warp' rule I feel. He is not constantly active and always arrives where he is most needed. This hints at him travelling through the Warp somehow as well.

[Ranwulf]

Dreads are alive for a short time(usually in battle), when they are not fighting they are in stasis. As such, their lives "stops" at the moment they get back to the freezer. Actually, that's the reason Dreads have many old marines, because they have been living only when they are awaken to fight.

 

Ran

[Jakobus]

I thought it was kinda clear, yes there are definiately older Space Marines than Dante. With the mutability of time when including the warp and new fluff/background being written all the time the are definately "older" "living" "people"

 

The thing with Dante is that he has been the BA Chapter Master for 1100+ years.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Mephiston was alive at least as long as Dante has been Chapter Master or there abouts. That or hes a time traveler. Its more a question of when he got his start which we dont know. Heck he and Dante could be old Scout Squad mates.

[empty choke]

i know this is way off topic. but the sanguinor doesn't count, he's a daemon prince for the emperor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Mephiston was alive at least as long as Dante has been Chapter Master or there abouts. That or hes a time traveler. Its more a question of when he got his start which we dont know. Heck he and Dante could be old Scout Squad mates.

actually i've never seen any fluff about mephy/calistarius' age where did i happen to miss that at?

 

(and i really wish they'd bring cleutin back or actually kill him off)

[lunchb0x]

Bjorn.

 

End of argument.

 

Dreadnought or not he still is kicking in some form.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Mephiston was alive at least as long as Dante has been Chapter Master or there abouts. That or hes a time traveler. Its more a question of when he got his start which we dont know. Heck he and Dante could be old Scout Squad mates.

actually i've never seen any fluff about mephy/calistarius' age where did i happen to miss that at?

 

(and i really wish they'd bring cleutin back or actually kill him off)

 

 

Well hes Calistarius in Space Hulk and Space Hulk Takes place approximately 1020 years in the past. Though at that point there was a different Chapter Master. So We can figure his age at at least 1032 (12 years of age + 1 for the Change into a marine + 1020 in service if his Very First year as a scout he became a librarian good enough to warrant Terminator Armour and was then sent into the space hulk)

[Brother_Dan'l]

I think it's very dangerous to treat the Space Hulk pasture patty of a background story or even BL books as definitive sources.

 

Dante is the longest lived marine that we know know of in that he has seen at least 1,200 years worth of days. The CSM and 13th Co. folks who disappeared into the warp may have earlier birth dates, but they aren't actually "older" in the way we usually consider the term. Just because I got on a train at the first stop doesn't always mean I've been on it longer than someone who got on at the fourth when we finally get to the tenth stop. If I got off at the third and got back on at the 9th, he's been on the train a lot longer than I have. If that makes sense to anyone else, do let me know. :wacko:

[Wildfire]

Wasn't Corbs the sgt of Dante's scout squad or something? I thought I remembered something like that.

[Jakobus]

Not, Corbs... that was the SC in AoD, which I don't have on hand