Assault vs. Tactical

[vahouth]

Also: Seeing I play footslogging DC, the Razorback can also be used to put the DC back into armor if their first transport got destroyed.

 

A little off topic here, but how exactly can you do that?

Since the DC have to move towards the closest visible enemy unit, I don't see how embarking a transport can be an option...

[JamesI]

Also: Seeing I play footslogging DC, the Razorback can also be used to put the DC back into armor if their first transport got destroyed.

 

A little off topic here, but how exactly can you do that?

Since the DC have to move towards the closest visible enemy unit, I don't see how embarking a transport can be an option...

If you can block the LOS of the DC, they can move wherever you want. Also, if the rage move brings them within 2 inches of the door of hte transport, they may be allowed to embark.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Thanks James!

[vahouth]

If you can block the LOS of the DC, they can move wherever you want. Also, if the rage move brings them within 2 inches of the door of hte transport, they may be allowed to embark.

 

I find the first one kind of hard to achieve, but you're right.

As for the transport, it never crossed my mind :D

This is a situation I'm not familiar with since I use my DC with jump packs,

but I 'm considering the option of removing them and arm them with bolters, to see how it goes.

[Khorneeq]

Hi guys,

there is one more thing which is done better by tactical squads.

They can unload lots of plasma shots.

It's great against hard targets like Monsterous Creatures.

Assult squad would be probably slowly destroyed in combat if they charge against healthy Avatar as they are unable to kill him fast, and loose bonuses of charging after first round. Tacticals are great to prepare such targets for Assult squads.

Just my way of doing it.

[Leardinal]

Hi guys,

there is one more thing which is done better by tactical squads.

They can unload lots of plasma shots.

It's great against hard targets like Monsterous Creatures.

Assult squad would be probably slowly destroyed in combat if they charge against healthy Avatar as they are unable to kill him fast, and loose bonuses of charging after first round. Tacticals are great to prepare such targets for Assult squads.

Just my way of doing it.

 

While I agree with lots of plasma, the RAS can actually put out more plasma shots since they can take two plasma guns at a 10 man level or one at a 5 man, where as the tactical needs to be at 10 man str to get 1 gun and/or cannon, but the cannon scatters and only hits each target once, so the RAS is still better against hard targets. You have to think to put plasma in the squads, but you have to do the same with tacs.

[Khorneeq]

I'm using combi-plasma in addition to plasma gun and cannon.

If rhino they are in, didn't move- fire cannon. If moving they get one plasma shot more than Assult squad, and additional bolter shots.

[Leardinal]

Well, the RAS sergeant can take a plasma pistol, once again equaling it out. Giving the Tac squad 4 shoots + a plasma cannon + boltguns, and the RAS 5 shoots weather they move or not + pistols, and if we are still looking a tough single targets, I'd put my money on the RAS since it has 5 direct fire plasma shots compared to 4 direct plasma shots + a scattering plasma cannon, and if you want them to be in a rhino, only two models can shoot because it only has two fire points.

[SamaNagol]

Tactical squads in no way compliment the inherent benefits of the BA codex.

 

Assault squads do.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Tactical squads in no way compliment the inherent benefits of the BA codex.

 

Assault squads do.

 

Being in cover and firing boltguns and heavy weapons while being in cover and having FNP does not compliment the BA?

Being able to jump out of that cover and counter charge with FC does not compliment the BA?

 

I feel it does very much.. tough as nails, hard to fire out of cover.. and when you get close those crazies suddenly jump out of their cover and charge you!?

 

I feel anyone who disregards Tacticals with reasons like this, really need to scratch behind their head. The only reason the RAS sees more use in MECH armies is because of the 50 point discount on the Razorback, making the TLAC Razorback worth it's points for the RAS. But once the MECH is broken, the Tactical has a lot more potential than the RAS.

 

I personally feel this edition the tactical squad is too limited when needing 10 people to need a heavy or special weapon, this makes the Tacticals a lot less.. well.. tactical. I would have changed it to be able to take a special with 5 or more models and a heavy with 10 or something. The succes of the Razorback is the downfall of the Tactical and nothing else.

[Joasht]

Hi guys,

there is one more thing which is done better by tactical squads.

They can unload lots of plasma shots.

It's great against hard targets like Monsterous Creatures.

Assult squad would be probably slowly destroyed in combat if they charge against healthy Avatar as they are unable to kill him fast, and loose bonuses of charging after first round. Tacticals are great to prepare such targets for Assult squads.

Just my way of doing it.

 

While I agree with lots of plasma, the RAS can actually put out more plasma shots since they can take two plasma guns at a 10 man level or one at a 5 man, where as the tactical needs to be at 10 man str to get 1 gun and/or cannon, but the cannon scatters and only hits each target once, so the RAS is still better against hard targets. You have to think to put plasma in the squads, but you have to do the same with tacs.

 

Problem is RAS can't charge after using Plasma guns, so while they *technically* get more Plasma shots, you sort of lose out on the S4 AP5 volume. Seems kinda pointless to take 10 RAS just for the Plasma guns, which probably explains why no one does that. On the other hand though, I can see an application for a 5-man RAS (Combi-Plasma and Plasma gun) in a Razorback (LC + TL-PG for flavor perhaps?). You kind of only lose three S4 AP5 shots in comparison to if they were armed with bolters, but with the advantage of actually being able to take a freaking Plasma gun at five men. Maybe not the best application since you could, technically, pull something like this off but better with an Honor Guard, but hey, its an idea.

 

(Frankly I don't know why GW continued the IMO terrible trend of forcing 10-man Tactical Squads.....I can't even put an IC with them and shove them into a rhino because of that!)

 

Edit: typo

[shatter]

I find tacticals handy when I have an excess of assault models and terrain wont allow them all to attack or effect their attack potential well. Sometimes terrain/tank hulls wont allow more than one or three models to engage.

[MaleOpener]

I'm gonna say its mostly due to the points.

 

An assault squad striped of it's packs, in a transport, will be less than a Tactical squad in a transport.

 

Now players will argue about taking/holding objectives. The fact is, you really don't need to worry about that until the last turn, so use most of your turns to defeat your opponent.

 

Popping striped assault squads in/out of transports is quite effective. Two models with a meltagun, and one model with a power fist, and you're in business!

[Drachnon]

I think the RAS strength lies in their ability to replace their jump packs with a transport. If my interpretation of the codex is correct you make a 25 point profit on trading the jump packs of your assault squad in for a transport.

[MaleOpener]

I think the RAS strength lies in their ability to replace their jump packs with a transport. If my interpretation of the codex is correct you make a 25 point profit on trading the jump packs of your assault squad in for a transport.

 

 

I'm gonna say a 14 point profit, unless you were adding in something else?

[lunchb0x]

Tactical squads in no way compliment the inherent benefits of the BA codex.

 

Assault squads do.

 

 

Thats like...your opinion man. :)

[SamaNagol]

Being in a Transport with FnP > being behind cover with FnP. The only thing cover AND FnP can combine to be useful against are AP3 weapons, I'll wait while you list the hundreds of those....

 

Charging out of a transport with FC > charging through difficult terrain with FC

 

The only positive you have with Tacticals over Assault Marines is bolter fire, and anti infantry arms is pretty abundant to Blood Angels.

 

No, Tacticals do not benefit BA more than Assault Marines. You're better off putting 6 Assault Marines with a Flamer and Power Fist inside a TL Lascannon Razorback on home objective than a Tactical Squad.

[Erasmus of Baal]

...am I missing something here? Did I misread the rules, or is it that you can SHOOT while disembarking, but not assault unless it's a special case? If I'm wrong, please coorect me, but if this is true then I don't understand why assault squads are so useful in a Razorback as opposed to Tacticals. I'm seeing:

--(Tactical) Transport moves up, unloads squad, squad shoots, survives a round of shooting, climbs back in the vehicle, rinse, repeat.

--(Assault) Transport drops load behind it, prays that the enemy only has one squad capable of popping the tank and the squad, moves out of the way so that the squad can assault, (assuming ideal assault conditions) squad gets back in next turn, rinse and repeat if time permits.

[SamaNagol]

Now you are advocating using Tactical Squads to TAKE objectives in Razorbacks? Good luck with that. I hope it works well for you.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

...am I missing something here? Did I misread the rules, or is it that you can SHOOT while disembarking, but not assault unless it's a special case? If I'm wrong, please coorect me, but if this is true then I don't understand why assault squads are so useful in a Razorback as opposed to Tacticals. I'm seeing:

--(Tactical) Transport moves up, unloads squad, squad shoots, survives a round of shooting, climbs back in the vehicle, rinse, repeat.

--(Assault) Transport drops load behind it, prays that the enemy only has one squad capable of popping the tank and the squad, moves out of the way so that the squad can assault, (assuming ideal assault conditions) squad gets back in next turn, rinse and repeat if time permits.

 

You can assault out of a transport if the transport hasn't moved that turn if i recall correctly. So the Assault can stay inside the transport while they await the torrent of incoming fire.

 

But indeed, the RAS inside a Razorback is just there to make the Razorback cheap. The Tactical Squad can also do other things quite efficiently.

 

I still like taking a 10 man Tactical Squad or 2, place the Sergeant with Special Weapon in a Razorback and leave the 1 or 2 heavies on/near a home objective in cover. The combat squad in the Razorback is as useful as a RAS in there, and you have 1 or 2 heavies with bodies around them on your own lines as well. Yes, it's more points with the transport. But I don't see the RAS having a Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon or Lascannon.

And when push comes to shove, those Tacticals with heavies can also still do the counter charge thing for other heavy support in your army.

[Joasht]

Well the thing here is you can't embark and disembark on the same turn so the whole "unloading taxi of doom" thing doesn't work since there is no guarantee your Rhino will survive that one round (in fact I'd wager the chance of it being destroyed/shaken/immobilized is higher than it not getting at least shaken/immobilized).

 

EDIT: To clarify, the "unloading taxi of doom" is supposed to quote Erasmus: "--(Tactical) Transport moves up, unloads squad, squad shoots, survives a round of shooting, climbs back in the vehicle, rinse, repeat. "

 

That said I can certainly see a use for the Tacticals, and one that I think most people use, and probably has already been mentioned in this thread (I only rapidly scanned the 2nd page this time around) - holding objectives. Park them in a Rhino, shoot, and if the Rhino is destroyed heck, you still have 24" bolters while standing still, which is better than that bolt pistol ever will be since there are many situations where the place you are standing is well over 12" away from something you could shoot at. Plus if you took a Plasma Gun thats one extra 24" gun, and any heavy weapon you take, even if you took the Heavy Bolter, would just add to your "over 12"" range that an Assault Squad simply cannot obtain. Turns them into a sort of point-defense but hey, its a practical application.

 

All *that* said, my personal playstyle is admittedly a little too aggressive for Tacticals, and I've never had faith in vehicles of any sort (although I still do take them at times, but I prefer my built-in 12" units that don't rely on vehicles).

[Drachnon]

I think the RAS strength lies in their ability to replace their jump packs with a transport. If my interpretation of the codex is correct you make a 25 point profit on trading the jump packs of your assault squad in for a transport.

 

 

I'm gonna say a 14 point profit, unless you were adding in something else?

 

For my calculations I assume that a marine with close combat weapon + bolt pistol (assault) is the same value as a marine with a boltgun(tactical marine), comparing their costs the the assault marine is 2 points more expensive but has a jump pack. 5 assault marines would then have 10 points worth of jump packs with them, trading those 10 points for a 35 point discount results in a 25 point 'profit'.

[MKA]

I made some very good experiences with Tac squads. They're tough, shooty and can hold their own in hth.

 

I usually take 1-2 full squads in any game i play, and use them to either camp an objective or to deny my opponent a flank or an entire quarter. Since they're not supposed to move much I usually take them in pods and drop them exactly (well, most of the time ^^) where I want them. They're always a solid anchor and an anvil to my RAS hammer.

 

The only downside to the forced 10-man squads is that there is no way to fit a SP in their transports. Which is a shame, because T4 PA models in hard cover with FNP would be nigh impossible to root out.

[Dark Legionnare]

Contrary to some words relayed in this forum I give crazy amounts of respect to Tactical squads. I haven't bought more units for my army since 4th Ed. so I built my 5th Ed. list around the physical models I have. So when everyone else I knew that played BA started doing Assault Squad/Razor spam I stuck with my models, aka, Tacs. I'm currently saving up to build a DH army when their new update finally comes out so I've retired my BA from further improvement, aka, future unit/model purchases for them.

 

My two tac squads, with ML and flamer each, are "Dear God" steadfast fighters. They are my hold points units and, like a few mentioned, they are great at doing just that. Especially when split into combat squads to counter assault with Seargent and flamer group of 5 per Tac Squad. In armor heavy games switching that ML out for a Las Cannon is much cheaper than buying Devs or a predator for them. So they then sit there and keep sniping tanks and pricy units. I have had to adapt my Veteran Assault Marines from 4th Ed. to normal assaults and Vanguards, where I use those units, so assault troops still get love. I still can't overstate how much two 10 tac squads can do for their cheap cost. I'm just rambling on now I guess, but darnit, I love Tactical Squads.

[SamaNagol]

In heavy armour games however, it isn't cheaper than putting 6 Assault Marines in a Razorback with a much more accurate TL Lascannon or the more effective and versatile TL Assault Cannon. This is my point.

 

While Tactical Squads DO have benefits (as I should hope considering you pay points for them!), they are overshadowed by what you can do by the Assault Squad and it's universal Transport discount.

 

10 man Tactical squads are more survivable? Well not against small arms fire which is completely negated by a Transport. well Tacticals can also go in a Rhino and shoot out the top hatch! Sure, but I'd rather use that top hatch to mount a great big gun instead which is far more effective.

 

Literally anything you can do with Tacticals, you can do it better with a 6 man Assault Squad in a Razorback.