Fluff Discussion: The Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guards

[shatter]

Alot of people seem to think the Sanguinary guard are not leadership material, I'd have to disagree. I would like to think that they are more skilled/disaplined than even the veterans of the first company. In such a case any one of them would be able to step up if someone more suitable was not around to lead a battle force, or if the normal leader was injured or killed. How ever they would probably only do this if the normal chain of command was broken, eg Captain chaplins Sang priests or Librarians are not available to step in. I would think in the event that the normal chain of command is broken they would step into a advisery role for who ever is taking over possibly to judge his worthy hood for a full command position only actually stepping in if the new guy isn't ready to take on the responsibility.

 

I would also suggest that they report directly to Commander Dante as well and he would probably have more contact with them than any of his Captains. Hence the reason they are troops when he is with them.

 

I suggest that they are an extension of Dante's eyes and ears since he can't be everywhere at once

no one is saying that they're not leadership material, just simply that they are not commanders. ya if the captain or who ever is leading the attack goes down and things go south the SG sarge could take over easily and command using nothing besides the respect of his brothers to give the commands.

 

it's just that a regular SG would still be subordinate to a vet sarge in the chain of command

 

emphasis mine.

 

For me that sounds like a limited edition master sergeant++ being lower than a sergeant. I see nothing in the codex supporting it. (p50)

 

To entertain a parallel: Judge Dredd. Same faction as a cop or a cop sergeant but he gets to say, "I AM THE LAW!" The cop does not.

[Leonaides]

4star general out on a patrol with recon fire-team. Who's in command? The general or the platoon leader? And now tell me that the general knows that private pike has the best hearing, and that if private jones has a suspicion about that rock he should be listened to...

[Brother Nathan]

i would assume that the general would be incharge but he wouldnt tell the troops what to do, hed tell the platoon leader whod then relay the command to whom hed know to be best suited or the job. However unlike guarf marines excell at everything so they should be able to do anything a commander tells them to do...

[Losfer Werds]

i would assume that the general would be incharge but he wouldnt tell the troops what to do, hed tell the platoon leader whod then relay the command to whom hed know to be best suited or the job. However unlike guarf marines excell at everything so they should be able to do anything a commander tells them to do...

 

In such a situation, even though the general outranks the platoon/squad leader, the squad leader has operational control of the unit. The general would only command the unit if a.) he decides he wants to (d*#k move btw), b.) The squad leader makes a choice that the general disagrees with, or c.) the squad leader makes some sort of gross error in judgment. A good leader of course would take this young soldier aside and explain the situation rather than call him an idiot in front of his own troops.

 

That said, I'm of the opinion that the SG operate in a special capacity, sometimes with objectives that might differ from the basic line troops. They shouldn't be in a units chain of command, but they have the respect, and probably the experience to make recommendations to the commander of any unit they might interact with.

[Brother Nathan]

And even then as i said this is marines not guard...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I dont see how anyone could say SG are not capable leaders. Our primarch intentionally left Azkaellon behind on Terra so he would have someone to rebuild the Legion and lead it through the dark days ahead following the heresy.

 

0b :)

[Leonaides]

Well, permit my phrasing it in simpler terms to illustrate the point then. Are you familiar with team sports? If, for example, Manchester United bought the 'best' 16 players in the world in their respective positions, you might think they should beat every other team going in every match since they have the 'best' players. In fact, they wouldnt win against most teams for the first half season or so. Simply because it takes time for individual players to learn how each other react, how to 'gel' as a team. You're suggesting the equivalent of dropping Rooney into the middle of the Arsenal frontline and expecting him to score 3 or 4 goals a match straight off. And if he doesnt every one of them dies, along with the rest of the planet.

 

Tactical squads fight together, learning each others every nuance, every slight skill advantage, every movement and inclination 20-odd hours a day, every day, for decades. Their sergeants drill them into a single weapon, learning how to get the utmost from each of them individually and as a group. The sergeants also learn to work with the other squads in the company to get the utmost out of each individual squad, singly and as a company. In the time available on a battlefield situation, where seconds are the difference between life or death for all of the marines, there is no time for a SG to learn all of that. He may well have been a senoir sergeant himself, he may well have been first company senior sergeant, he may well have trained and fought with the best of the best. But he didnt make captain. He isnt a captian, and the battlefield/combat experience he has might well mean he is the most deadly fighter on the field, but that senior tactical sergeant is totally and utterly familar with fighting his company. Using it as his blade and shield, knowing how it moves, knowing which squad is that little bit better in assaulting a defended building as opposed to a defended patch of vegetation, knowing who has the skill to make that 1 in a thousand sniper shot that marks the firer out as exceeding the already high standards of a marine. SG dont train 20 hours a day to fight a company. They train to be SG.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You seem very prejudiced in your opinion and unwilling to look at the merits of what others have said.

 

It has been discussed that Sanguinary Guard were created along with the Astartes Custodes and are more than an ordinary Marine.

 

0b :D

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Alot of people seem to think the Sanguinary guard are not leadership material, I'd have to disagree. I would like to think that they are more skilled/disaplined than even the veterans of the first company. In such a case any one of them would be able to step up if someone more suitable was not around to lead a battle force, or if the normal leader was injured or killed. How ever they would probably only do this if the normal chain of command was broken, eg Captain chaplins Sang priests or Librarians are not available to step in. I would think in the event that the normal chain of command is broken they would step into a advisery role for who ever is taking over possibly to judge his worthy hood for a full command position only actually stepping in if the new guy isn't ready to take on the responsibility.

 

I would also suggest that they report directly to Commander Dante as well and he would probably have more contact with them than any of his Captains. Hence the reason they are troops when he is with them.

 

I suggest that they are an extension of Dante's eyes and ears since he can't be everywhere at once

no one is saying that they're not leadership material, just simply that they are not commanders. ya if the captain or who ever is leading the attack goes down and things go south the SG sarge could take over easily and command using nothing besides the respect of his brothers to give the commands.

 

it's just that a regular SG would still be subordinate to a vet sarge in the chain of command

 

emphasis mine.

 

For me that sounds like a limited edition master sergeant++ being lower than a sergeant. I see nothing in the codex supporting it. (p50)

 

To entertain a parallel: Judge Dredd. Same faction as a cop or a cop sergeant but he gets to say, "I AM THE LAW!" The cop does not.

and there is nothing in the codex to support them being any thing but regular marines for command purposes. again their experience gives them the ability to understand and be capable of command, but in the end they're not leaders unless it's the SG sergeant. now, they might be able to make command decisions on weight of respect alone rather than rank, but that's not the same.

[Brother Nathan]

But if they are attached to a company and he captain gets knocked off, the best vt sarge in the compny could be just that, dosent mean he has the ability to lead a company, just the squad hes attached to. same as the sanguine guard but they are likely older and more exerianced. We dont exactly know how they are picked so a captain could be in theretrying to learn, be more like sanguinius, earn futher promotion to another position etc. Fluff wise it could go whatever way. if t termie squad was attached and the company captain killed id nearl expect them to temporaily take command, and i view fluff wise that sanguard are higher up than them... Unless of course there is a copitent sarge capable of taking command, but even then they arnt officially in command till the chaptermaster says so...Call it a grey area if you will. Cause this is just speculation.

The sarge may know the company inside out and be able to command it, but if dosent want to, frezes when in command etc that knowledge proves of little use to the rest of the company.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is no SG sergeant. Just like HG.

 

0b <_<

 

Alot of people seem to think the Sanguinary guard are not leadership material, I'd have to disagree. I would like to think that they are more skilled/disaplined than even the veterans of the first company. In such a case any one of them would be able to step up if someone more suitable was not around to lead a battle force, or if the normal leader was injured or killed. How ever they would probably only do this if the normal chain of command was broken, eg Captain chaplins Sang priests or Librarians are not available to step in. I would think in the event that the normal chain of command is broken they would step into a advisery role for who ever is taking over possibly to judge his worthy hood for a full command position only actually stepping in if the new guy isn't ready to take on the responsibility.

 

I would also suggest that they report directly to Commander Dante as well and he would probably have more contact with them than any of his Captains. Hence the reason they are troops when he is with them.

 

I suggest that they are an extension of Dante's eyes and ears since he can't be everywhere at once

no one is saying that they're not leadership material, just simply that they are not commanders. ya if the captain or who ever is leading the attack goes down and things go south the SG sarge could take over easily and command using nothing besides the respect of his brothers to give the commands.

 

it's just that a regular SG would still be subordinate to a vet sarge in the chain of command

 

emphasis mine.

 

For me that sounds like a limited edition master sergeant++ being lower than a sergeant. I see nothing in the codex supporting it. (p50)

 

To entertain a parallel: Judge Dredd. Same faction as a cop or a cop sergeant but he gets to say, "I AM THE LAW!" The cop does not.

and there is nothing in the codex to support them being any thing but regular marines for command purposes. again their experience gives them the ability to understand and be capable of command, but in the end they're not leaders unless it's the SG sergeant. now, they might be able to make command decisions on weight of respect alone rather than rank, but that's not the same.

[Brother Nathan]

just as well cause gw would likely have not given him access to something the est of the squad gets...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So true plus all the threads with people whining about it. :P

 

0b <_<

[MaleOpener]

The Sanguinor is considered a myth, a legend, of the BA Chapter. Very view have seen him, and lived to tell about it, since he only shows in the times of the greatest need. I personally like the tale of him being Azkaellon, the founder of the Sanguinary Guard, the sole member left behind on Terra when Sanguinius made for Horus's battlebardge.

 

The Sanguinary Guard are the uttermost elite of the Chapter. Proven in mind, body, and spirit to uphold that values of their illustrious Primarch to the extent no other can. Mortals-become-gods are basically what they are, their feats a legend for all time. I'm quite sure they hold the highest position among their Battle-Brothers, but I don't see Chaplains and Priests bowing to them. Their deeds are formed in the fire of battle, in the cold void of space, and even in the deepest pits of hell.

 

The blue blood of leadership doesn't flow through their viens, but the holy blaze of purity bound to destroy all that is impure.

[jma037]

It has been discussed that Sanguinary Guard were created along with the Astartes Custodes and are more than an ordinary Marine.

 

:) Please point me to this discussion. Very interesting concept. I have a feeling that the only way to leave the SG is to die in battle or get the rage.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well if you look at our codex you'll see that the Blood Angels were on Terra during the final days of the heresy. They fought side by side with the Adeptus Custodes and there are quite a few similarities between them such as golden artificer armor. Also some Custodes actually have a kneepad with the image of Sanguinius' face. The Sanguinary Guard are a new edition to our Chapter's background so this is speculation but there is also some evidence to support it as well.

 

On the subject of chain of command I dont think if a Captain died in battle that leadership would necessarily fall to a veteran sergeant. Most companies have other officers such as Chaplains and Librarians attached. I would see command falling on the shoulders of a Chaplain first before a sergeant. It would depend upon the situation at hand.

 

0b :wub:

[jma037]

Well if you look at our codex you'll see that the Blood Angels were on Terra during the final days of the heresy. They fought side by side with the Adeptus Custodes and there are quite a few similarities between them such as golden artificer armor. Also some Custodes actually have a kneepad with the image of Sanguinius' face. The Sanguinary Guard are a new edition to our Chapter's background so this is speculation but there is also some evidence to support it as well.

 

That seems kind of a stretch. The Imperial Fist was at the Palace too and they also had "Golden" armour. Wasn't the accepted rule that the Custodes are to SM what SM is to the IG? Maybe the orginial SG were Custodes looking after the Big E's favored son(am I right fellas? :wub: ) But after the decimation at the hands of Horus, I think the "second founding" of the SG are not custodes, but just regular Blood Angels.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Imperial Fists have yellow armor.

 

Take a look at some of the HH artwork of the Custodes, you'll definitely see some similarities. I never said this is definitely the case, just that there has been some discussion.

 

0b

[Jorre]

Leonaides I don't think anyone is contesting your theories in the blood angel chain of command. I certainly think they are spot on. What we are contesting is the though that sang guard have no leadership qualities.

 

I would think that in 99% of circumstances if the appointed leader of any ba force is incapacitated. You would be right in your ideas in chain of command. How ever if there was a sang guard in that force I am sure they would take it upon themselves to make sure the next guy in command was making the correct decisions. Only if things got really out of controll would a sang guard step in, and if he chose to do so I don't think any vet sergent would even consider contesting his right to do so.

[Scribe]

I see them as the contrast to the death company really. Look at what we can extrapolate from the statline of the SG.

 

WS - 4, clearly not the elite of the elite in H2H, A - 2, better then average attack rate, but balanced by their very specific gear. 2H PW or PF, and a decent if short ranged shooting attack, with second to best armour (best being terminator).

 

Can these guys go in and do some damage? Without at doubt. Anything that isnt a dedicated CC force (in a LR, on Bikes like Nobs, or with a PW/high I) is unlikely to get a charge due to the SG jump packs, and will likely take a lot of damage both in the shooting, and assault phase. They have great potential against horde attacks (2+/4++ if your doing it right) and will likely make a dent in even those dedicated assault forces.

 

In fluff terms, I see them as the inspirational back breaking shock unit, that offers a counter point to the savage and uncontrolled death company. The light and dark of the BA and their successors really. I would see them as a force that would be seen more in the company of the chaplains and sanguinary priesthood, offering insight and discussion on how to best guide the chapter (something like the only SG did after the Heresy).

 

They are elite, they are good in certain roles (but never the best!) yet offer some flexibility and against hordes, the opportunity to come down on a trail of fire, and do something heroic.

[Leonaides]

BO- you do know that chaplains and librarians lie outside the command system, i assume? Command ranks are combat squad leader, sergeant, senior sergeant, captain, chapter master. If a chaplain was part of the command system he wouldn't be able to do his job, and librarians are advisors, not leaders. They are hq units on tt, but so are command squads. They may be given specific commands, but they will most likely be strategically and tacticly inferior to a captain or a senior company sergeant who has spent more time learning strategy and tactics.

[Oiad]

That seems kind of a stretch. The Imperial Fist was at the Palace too and they also had "Golden" armour. Wasn't the accepted rule that the Custodes are to SM what SM is to the IG? Maybe the orginial SG were Custodes looking after the Big E's favored son(am I right fellas? <_< ) But after the decimation at the hands of Horus, I think the "second founding" of the SG are not custodes, but just regular Blood Angels.

Depends on the writer when it comes to Custodian power levels. Descriptions range from anywhere between being Space Marine equals to being Primarch equals. Often "the facts" are actually written as assumptions or hearsay in the novels in both cases. Fans take from that what they want...

 

As for the SG, why stop at proposing they're as good as Custodians? The Emperor is often depicted in golden armour and was at the Siege of Terra too! ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So would Astorath take orders from a veteran sergeant or combat squad leader?

 

0b :lol:

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

BO- you do know that chaplains and librarians lie outside the command system, i assume? Command ranks are combat squad leader, sergeant, senior sergeant, captain, chapter master. If a chaplain was part of the command system he wouldn't be able to do his job, and librarians are advisors, not leaders. They are hq units on tt, but so are command squads. They may be given specific commands, but they will most likely be strategically and tacticly inferior to a captain or a senior company sergeant who has spent more time learning strategy and tactics.

read the codex, the sanguinary high priest and high chaplain are on the chapter's command council and even take control of the chapter for a short time should the chapter master die or fall to the rage, thus putting both groups into the chain of command.

 

That seems kind of a stretch. The Imperial Fist was at the Palace too and they also had "Golden" armour. Wasn't the accepted rule that the Custodes are to SM what SM is to the IG? Maybe the orginial SG were Custodes looking after the Big E's favored son(am I right fellas? :huh: ) But after the decimation at the hands of Horus, I think the "second founding" of the SG are not custodes, but just regular Blood Angels.

Depends on the writer when it comes to Custodian power levels. Descriptions range from anywhere between being Space Marine equals to being Primarch equals. Often "the facts" are actually written as assumptions or hearsay in the novels in both cases. Fans take from that what they want...

 

As for the SG, why stop at proposing they're as good as Custodians? The Emperor is often depicted in golden armour and was at the Siege of Terra too! ;)

sanguinor is the emperor! :lol:

[Leonaides]

So would Astorath take orders from a veteran sergeant or combat squad leader?

 

Veteran sergeant elevated to acting captain when the previous captian dies - yes, I'd expect Astorath to support his command, and the orderly command structure so that everyone knows that even though the captain is dead, the command structure is still in place - or would you rather the various sergeants start giving their own orders out, not acting in unison, and unable to co-ordinate the battle any more? If the more senior 11 marines in the company have already died (every sergeant and the captain), then I think Astorath will probably be very busy fighting his little red socks off...

 

more to the point perhaps, is this little snippet form the tactical squad entry inthe codex:

"Should the captain be slain or otherwise eliminated, command of the strikeforce automatically and seamlessly passes to the most senior tactical sergeant."

 

No mention of it passing to the most senior chaplain or Sang Priest of Librarian there...