Continued CC against vehicles

[LPetersson]

This situation came up in a game against a Necron player.

 

My squad assaulted his monolith and immobilised it.

 

In his turn, his deceiver caused them to be pinned.

 

We then get to the CC phase in his turn at which point we then wondered:

 

Can the unit still attack the monolith?

 

After some vigorous exchanging of opinions we reached the decision that the squad could have continued attacking if they hadn't been pinned.

 

We couldn't find anything decisive in the rules either way.

So, what do you guys say, could the squad have continued attacking? Even though they were pinned?

[dswanick]

Short answer - No.

Going to ground insert - fourth paragraph - Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions.

Successive turns - first paragraph - If a vehicle that has been assaulted, and has survived, does not move in its successive Movement Phase, enemy models will still be in base contact with it during its Shooting and Assault Phases.

 

- third paragraph - Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault Phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault).

The unit assault the vehicle normally, was left in base contact, then in the following shooting phase became pinned (counts as Gonig to Ground). In the enemy Assault Phase they may do nothing since the vehicle can not assault them (to trigger a reaction close combat), and in their following turn they are still Gone to Ground so may not Move, Shoot, or Assault.

You handled the situation exactly as I see the rules instructing you to.

[Grey Mage]

If we followed your logic there, theyd be unable to defend themselves in a normal assault.

 

Since the vehicle is still there, Id say theyre still locked in assault.

[dswanick]

If we followed your logic there, theyd be unable to defend themselves in a normal assault.

 

Since the vehicle is still there, Id say theyre still locked in assault.

Nope they are able to defend themselves from an assault launched against them, but may not initiate an assault.

Going to ground insert - fourth paragraph - Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions.

Vehicles and models assaulting vehicles can not be locked in combat, unless it's a walker.

Combat results - first paragraph - Combats against vehicles are very different from those among other unit types. For starters, whilst vehicles can be assaulted, they cannot be locked in combat.

- second paragraph - The vehicle and the enemy remain where they are and are free to simply move away in future turns.

[Grey Mage]

There in BTB contact with an enemy during the assault phase, how is that not in assault?

 

The rules state if the vehicle is still there, they continue to attack the vehicle as normal for an ongoing combat.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

A vehicle cannot be "locked" in combat but it (and the unit assaulting it) can remain "engaged". A pinned unit cannot do anything of its own volition, but attacking (not assaulting, just attacking) is not optional for a model in base contact with an enemy. Models in base contact with an enemy must attack pg. 37 BRB "...models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack.....if a model was engaged at the start of the fight...it can still attack."

[dswanick]

I can see your point. The rules do not speak to this specific circumstance, so I guess it comes down to your definitions of action and reaction when it comes to infantry making attack rolls against an immobile vehicle which is doing nothing to your pinned unit other than existing within arms reach. This seems like a good candidate for a house rule.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed, I can see it going either way on this one. My personal opinion reading over the rules is that they do continue to attack, particularly because an immobilized vehicle does not cease to be a threat when its guns are aimed at you :huh:.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

They cannot fight the Monolith.

 

BBB pg 63.

"For a start, whilst vehicles can be assaulted, they cannot be locked in combat.

At the conclusion of a round of close combat against a vehicle there is no combat result, and so there are no sweeping advances, no pile-in and no consolidation moves.

The vehicle and the enemy remain where they are and are free to move away in future turns.

 

Successive Turns

If a vehicle that has been assaulted, and has survived, does not move in its successive Movement phase, enemy models will still be in base contact with it during its Shooting and Assault phase. Enemy models that are in base contact with a vehicle are not locked in combat and can therefore be shot during the Shooting phase.

....

Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat [including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault]

 

pg 24 Going to Ground.

"If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual...."

 

So whilst in combat, the vehicle never assaults and so the pinned unit never fights as normal.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

So whilst in combat, the vehicle never assaults and so the pinned unit never fights as normal.

But what are we defining as assaulting? Does assaulting actually require an an assault move? If a unit was in combat with a dreadnought, and a scattering barrage weapon pinned them, wouldn't they still get to fight back? The dreadnought didn't assault them, but they are still in combat.

[pueriexdeus]

This situation came up in a game against a Necron player.

 

My squad assaulted his monolith and immobilised it.

 

In his turn, his deceiver caused them to be pinned.

 

We then get to the CC phase in his turn at which point we then wondered:

 

Can the unit still attack the monolith?

 

After some vigorous exchanging of opinions we reached the decision that the squad could have continued attacking if they hadn't been pinned.

 

We couldn't find anything decisive in the rules either way.

So, what do you guys say, could the squad have continued attacking? Even though they were pinned?

 

 

First of all their is the rule about units in CC not being shot at (BRB pg 40) it also states that models locked in CC do not have to take Pinning tests. So the Necron player broke the rules by shooting into a CC. And your lack of knowledge about the rules made you take an unnecessary pinning test.

 

So yes you could have continued to attack the Monolith (your already in CC), and it was illegal for the Necron player to fire into the melee.

 

Good learning experience though.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

This situation came up in a game against a Necron player.

 

My squad assaulted his monolith and immobilised it.

 

In his turn, his deceiver caused them to be pinned.

 

We then get to the CC phase in his turn at which point we then wondered:

 

Can the unit still attack the monolith?

 

After some vigorous exchanging of opinions we reached the decision that the squad could have continued attacking if they hadn't been pinned.

 

We couldn't find anything decisive in the rules either way.

So, what do you guys say, could the squad have continued attacking? Even though they were pinned?

 

 

First of all their is the rule about units in CC not being shot at (BRB pg 40) it also states that models locked in CC do not have to take Pinning tests. So the Necron player broke the rules by shooting into a CC. And your lack of knowledge about the rules made you take an unnecessary pinning test.

 

So yes you could have continued to attack the Monolith (your already in CC), and it was illegal for the Necron player to fire into the melee.

 

Good learning experience though.

 

Units fighting a non-walker vehicle are not "locked" in combat and the rules specifically state that they can be shot at BRB pg 63.

 

As they are not "locked" they are also not immune to pinning tests.

 

The Necron did nothing wrong in this case.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So whilst in combat, the vehicle never assaults and so the pinned unit never fights as normal.

But what are we defining as assaulting? Does assaulting actually require an an assault move? If a unit was in combat with a dreadnought, and a scattering barrage weapon pinned them, wouldn't they still get to fight back? The dreadnought didn't assault them, but they are still in combat.

 

Vehicles cannot assault. The GtG unit cannot be assaulted by the Vehicle. Being assaulted is a key for unlocking GtG.

 

We don't have to determine *yet* whether being assaulted is part of an ongoing combat or the act of being charged. Phew!

 

As for the scattering thing, pg 40

Shooting into and out of close combat

"Units that are locked in close combat do not have to take Morale or Pinning tests caused by shooting...."

 

First of all their is the rule about units in CC not being shot at (BRB pg 40) it also states that models locked in CC do not have to take Pinning tests. So the Necron player broke the rules by shooting into a CC. And your lack of knowledge about the rules made you take an unnecessary pinning test.

So yes you could have continued to attack the Monolith (your already in CC), and it was illegal for the Necron player to fire into the melee.

Good learning experience though.

 

pg 63. Vehicles and assaults.

They can be shot.

 

As Hiro said

[Hiro_Protagonist]

As for the scattering thing, pg 40

Shooting into and out of close combat

"Units that are locked in close combat do not have to take Morale or Pinning tests caused by shooting...."

 

Forgot about that when I made the earlier post, you are right of course.

[pueriexdeus]

OK, so even though the Troop unit was not locked in CC with the vehicle, they were still in CC with the vehicle, they can be shot at, but the dont need to take a pinning test?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

OK, so even though the Troop unit was not locked in CC with the vehicle, they were still in CC with the vehicle, they can be shot at, but the dont need to take a pinning test?

 

Not locked.

In cc.

Shot at and pinned.

Not assaulted, pinned not undone

Cannot fight.

[pueriexdeus]

OK, so even though the Troop unit was not locked in CC with the vehicle, they were still in CC with the vehicle, they can be shot at, but the dont need to take a pinning test?

 

Not locked.

In cc.

Shot at and pinned.

Not assaulted, pinned not undone

Cannot fight.

 

OK, the key here is that they were not assaulted by another unit. If they were the pinning would be undone so they could defend themselves?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

OK, the key here is that they were not assaulted by another unit. If they were the pinning would be undone so they could defend themselves?

 

Yes, the vehicle never assaults them, so pinning is not undone.

 

+++

 

If they were in close combat, they'd never get pinned. pg 40