Shrike-led Scouts...mix, or match?

[ShinyRhino]

So, I've been pondering a Shrike-led Scout list for some time. Shrike gives infiltrating Scout squads the ability to pull off a first-turn charge, since they can deploy at 18.001", Scout 6", move 6", run 1-6" and then charge 6". He also grants that ability to a single Assault Squad he'd join (deploy at 18.001", move 12", run 1-6", charge 6").

 

The problem with Shrike lists is that if you don't go first (or have the opponent seize the initiative), is that you typically end up shot to hell in the first turn.

 

My theory is that to mitigate the problems of going second, you could take mixed squads of Scouts, instead of homogenous squad. So, instead of having a squad filled entirely with pistol/blade scouts, you do five with pistol/blade, and five with sniper rifles. If you don't end up going first, you can combat squad the unit into its sniper element, and its pistol/blade element. The snipers have the opportunity to deploy firther back in this case, and mitigate the number of kills you take from first-turn shooting.

If you seize the initiative on the opponent, you still have a viable assault element to charge forward with, thugh obviously one that is far less durable due to lack of bodies.

 

Is this a valid tactic, or just a way to prolong your death, since sniper scouts aren't any more survivable than standard scouts, despite being able to deploy 36" back and still fire on the enemy? Would it be more efficient to just purchase a single Scout sniper squad, and if you fail to get first turn, deploy them in the most relatively "safe" area, and hope they don't get a heavy flamer dropped on them early?

 

Essentially, I'm trying to think of ways to mitigate the risks of going secnod in a Shrike-led list, without resorting to annoying things like Emperor's Tarot, or overcosted rerolls with Sicarius.

[fredbob524]

Emperors tarot is 35 pts I believe, with an inquisitor so not that bad but my plan is always get first turn or outflank if you think it will work, failing that hold your men on your side use your at to pop transports and counter assault with scouts

[ShinyRhino]

I just personaly feel that taking an Inquisitor solely for Emperor's tarot is cheese factor five. ^_^

 

Outflank becomes more viable with Shrike int he amry, because you threaten 18" of board edge instead of just 12". 24" in the case of Shrike and his jump troopers.

[Brother Xeones]

Yeah, adding =I= forces won't work for that much longer anyway. Plus, spending more points will still not guarantee you a first turn. You'll really need a good plan to win even if you do go second.

 

I'm not so sure that your suggestion of sniper scouts would really be all that effective. First, you are diluting your first-turn strike ability since you'll be lacking in bodies and attacks. Second, you are substituting a unit that just isn't that high in damage output and you are pretty much forcing yourself to give up more kill points by combat squad'ing in some games. I'm sure these things have already occurred to you, but at first glance, the cons seem to out-weigh the pros.

 

I think the answer to this is probably something that we were talking about in the scout mechanization thread. I'd say you should look into Landraiders and Landspeeder Storms. That way, if you fail to get first turn, your scouts can be in some nice AV14 transports or can outflank in the speeders.

 

Consider the following partial list as an example:

Shrike

 

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

 

10-man Assault Squad: 2x flamers, Serg w/ PF

Landspeeder Storm w/MM

Landspeeder Storm w/MM

 

Landraider

Landraider

 

 

General idea would be for the scouts and assault squad to infiltrate forward if you get first turn while the landraiders and scout-moving empty storms use their lascannons/multi-meltas to pop open transports and leave the contents open to the impending assault by your infiltrators.

If you don't get first turn, two of the scouts deploy in the landraiders and the remaining squad combat squads and waits in the storms in reserve to outflank. Shrike and assault marines either deepstrike in, or fly behind the landraiders to gain cover.

 

You'd need more units than this to make a viable list, but I think the idea is workable --though, admittedly, you're still going to get shot to pieces if your opponent seizes the initiative after you set up for a first turn infiltrated assault.

 

In short, you really need to look into mechanizing methinks.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

So, I've been pondering a Shrike-led Scout list for some time. Shrike gives infiltrating Scout squads the ability to pull off a first-turn charge, since they can deploy at 18.001", Scout 6", move 6", run 1-6" and then charge 6". He also grants that ability to a single Assault Squad he'd join (deploy at 18.001", move 12", run 1-6", charge 6").

 

The problem with Shrike lists is that if you don't go first (or have the opponent seize the initiative), is that you typically end up shot to hell in the first turn.

 

My theory is that to mitigate the problems of going second, you could take mixed squads of Scouts, instead of homogenous squad. So, instead of having a squad filled entirely with pistol/blade scouts, you do five with pistol/blade, and five with sniper rifles. If you don't end up going first, you can combat squad the unit into its sniper element, and its pistol/blade element. The snipers have the opportunity to deploy firther back in this case, and mitigate the number of kills you take from first-turn shooting.

If you seize the initiative on the opponent, you still have a viable assault element to charge forward with, thugh obviously one that is far less durable due to lack of bodies.

 

Is this a valid tactic, or just a way to prolong your death, since sniper scouts aren't any more survivable than standard scouts, despite being able to deploy 36" back and still fire on the enemy? Would it be more efficient to just purchase a single Scout sniper squad, and if you fail to get first turn, deploy them in the most relatively "safe" area, and hope they don't get a heavy flamer dropped on them early?

 

Essentially, I'm trying to think of ways to mitigate the risks of going secnod in a Shrike-led list, without resorting to annoying things like Emperor's Tarot, or overcosted rerolls with Sicarius.

 

Maybe it's just the wording but you seem to be saying that you roll for first turn before deployment. Is that what you mean, or am I just reading this wrong?

[ShinyRhino]

Maybe it's just the wording but you seem to be saying that you roll for first turn before deployment. Is that what you mean, or am I just reading this wrong?

 

That is indeed how it works. You arrive at the table, and roll to see who places the first objective, skipping this step for Annihilation missions. Then, you roll off for who gets first choice of deployment zones. Whoever wins can either choose their zone and go first, or decide to go second.

You'll always know if you're to deploy first, or second and can react accordingly. The only wildcard is the Seize the Initiative roll.

[ShinyRhino]

If you don't get first turn, two of the scouts deploy in the landraiders and the remaining squad combat squads and waits in the storms in reserve to outflank. Shrike and assault marines either deepstrike in, or fly behind the landraiders to gain cover.

 

A good plan overall, but one that's not legal. You can't combat squad the scouts while in reserve, andplace them in two different vehicles. Both elements of a unit must arrive at the same time from reserves, and you decide to combat squad it or not when it moves onto the table. It'd work just fine with two separate 5-man units, but not one large 10-man.

[Brother Xeones]

If you don't get first turn, two of the scouts deploy in the landraiders and the remaining squad combat squads and waits in the storms in reserve to outflank. Shrike and assault marines either deepstrike in, or fly behind the landraiders to gain cover.

 

A good plan overall, but one that's not legal. You can't combat squad the scouts while in reserve, andplace them in two different vehicles. Both elements of a unit must arrive at the same time from reserves, and you decide to combat squad it or not when it moves onto the table. It'd work just fine with two separate 5-man units, but not one large 10-man.

 

^_^

Bah! You are right of course. I don't know what I was thinking. Still, hopefully the general intent of my plan has some merit...

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Maybe it's just the wording but you seem to be saying that you roll for first turn before deployment. Is that what you mean, or am I just reading this wrong?

 

That is indeed how it works. You arrive at the table, and roll to see who places the first objective, skipping this step for Annihilation missions. Then, you roll off for who gets first choice of deployment zones. Whoever wins can either choose their zone and go first, or decide to go second.

You'll always know if you're to deploy first, or second and can react accordingly. The only wildcard is the Seize the Initiative roll.

 

You're right. I forgot cause I've been playing alot of Battle Missions lately and they work differently.

[Meatman]

One good thing with Shrike is that you can outflank with him. So if you get first turn, infiltrate etc. Second, outflank and hit that flank hard. Same with scouts. Deepstriking is seriously not a good idea with the assault marines, we don't have descent of angels so we scatter the full 2D6" and can't assault the turn they arrive.

[greatcrusade08]

outflank with fleet can get you upto 24" on the charge (worst case 19").. thats a huge threat range.

 

Shrike

 

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

 

10-man Assault Squad: 2x flamers, Serg w/ PF

Landspeeder Storm w/MM

Landspeeder Storm w/MM

 

Landraider

Landraider

 

i honestly cant see this working, shrike with assault marines is a great combo and the two storms are brilliant.. but thats where it ends..

the scouts are focussed for first turn assaults and the raiders have no real purpose.. being an assault vehicle is what you pay so much for.

 

scouts can go in transports but only really as a way to mitigate the high cost of the LR and a HQ choice.. as a singular unit charging from a raider... not great, plus you lose all the little extras that make scouts what they are.

 

if your using LSS you need the 5 scouts, otherwise youd be better with a standard speeder

[Brother Xeones]

if your using LSS you need the 5 scouts, otherwise youd be better with a standard speeder

Right. Shiny already pointed out that you can't combat squad before deployment so it would need to be modified to be worthwhile: I'm not running LSS just because. I pointed them out because you can use them as transports of the scouts if you don't infiltrate said scouts.

 

More like:

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

Landraider

10 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

Landraider

5 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

LSS

5 Scouts: Serg w/ PF, Combi-weapon

LSS

 

i honestly cant see this working, shrike with assault marines is a great combo and the two storms are brilliant.. but thats where it ends..

the scouts are focussed for first turn assaults and the raiders have no real purpose.. being an assault vehicle is what you pay so much for.

You are a much more experienced player when it comes to scouts so I'll give way to your superior experience with them, but from what you just said, it sounds like you don't understand what I was doing here.

 

Granted, you are "wasting" points if you don't use them as an assault vehicle every single game, but what I was trying to do was to create a list that could function as a first-turn alpha-strike list while still being able to survive on the table if you don't get first turn. Most Shrike/scout lists are accused of being one-trick ponies which don't work if you can't get first turn. My aim was to try to mitigate this fact by including a couple of raiders and storms to give the scouts flexability. The raiders are the only transport option a scout can get aside from LSS, so it seems to me that you could use them for both fire support, for when you get first turn, or assault vehicle for when you get second. I admit that scouts in a land raider are not going to hit as hard as even assault marines so you are correct there, but then, they cost lest too so you should have more points for either more scouts or something else that is likely to do more damage.

 

Are you suggesting that you should keep the rest of the scouts that are not in 'Storms in reserve and simply outflank them all on foot and hope that you can catch your opponent with a 24" flank move? How do you suggest to solve the problem Shiny Rhino put forth in the opening post?

[greatcrusade08]

You are a much more experienced player when it comes to scouts so I'll give way to your superior experience with them, but from what you just said, it sounds like you don't understand what I was doing here.

 

Granted, you are "wasting" points if you don't use them as an assault vehicle every single game, but what I was trying to do was to create a list that could function as a first-turn alpha-strike list while still being able to survive on the table if you don't get first turn. Most Shrike/scout lists are accused of being one-trick ponies which don't work if you can't get first turn. My aim was to try to mitigate this fact by including a couple of raiders and storms to give the scouts flexability. The raiders are the only transport option a scout can get aside from LSS, so it seems to me that you could use them for both fire support, for when you get first turn, or assault vehicle for when you get second. I admit that scouts in a land raider are not going to hit as hard as even assault marines so you are correct there, but then, they cost lest too so you should have more points for either more scouts or something else that is likely to do more damage.

 

Are you suggesting that you should keep the rest of the scouts that are not in 'Storms in reserve and simply outflank them all on foot and hope that you can catch your opponent with a 24" flank move? How do you suggest to solve the problem Shiny Rhino put forth in the opening post?

 

the 24" flank move is for shrike and his JP marines, scouts would have a lesser move..

ignore my previous history with scouts in this instance ive never used LRs as a stabilising element. i rely on t-fires and snipers to do the job..

 

when i ran shrike i had 3 elements in my army, the hammer units of assault scouts, LSS and scout bikes which could all first turn charge or outflank.. i then had my anvil units of claoked snipers and t-fires..

what i did was to include a couple of units of bolter scouts to act as my inbetweeners.. if i got first turn i pushed them forward to support the alpha strikes, if not i depliyed them in cover near my lines and used my hammer units as outflankers.

 

for me it was the safest way to mitigate the chances of not getting first turn, because your correct in your assumption that shrike lists can be on trick ponies.. its hard to get them to work.

 

If its worth anything you could do worse than to listen to meatman, who uses a true ravenguard list with alot of success..

he uses drop pods and typhoons as his 'stabilising' element..

 

the problem with using those raiders is two fold, as i pointed out scouts dont hit very hard so their abilites as an assault vehcile is limted, secondly a lucky shot from fast melta/lascannon can wreck them early on and cause you to have a bad day... how many infantry models can that same melta kill?

if you want heavy weapons n the board, you can probably find many different options that are cheaper and more effective.

 

just my opinion, as i said ive never run them in such a role