Tyranid deathstar

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK, so I have been playing against Nids for quite a while now, with lots of success. The guy who I play with has now started using a "deathstar" unit. With a Tyrvigon as well to spawn loads of nice troops (and a couple of xenothropes and shooty Guard) this is one hard army to beat.

 

The deathstar is as follows.

 

1 hive tyrant (lashwhip and bonesword)

2 tyrant guard (boneswords)

tyranid prime (lashwhip and bonesword)

 

This unit pumps out 18 bonesword attacks on the charge at str 5 (rerolls due to preferred enemy), has an overall toughness of 6, 11 wounds (and some nice allocation potential) and reduces most foes to initiative 1. (Not to mention some other nice psychic abilities I wont go into.)

 

Cost is approx 460.

 

Now I know the sensible idea is to shoot this rather than combat, but bear in mind last time we played I spend 4 rounds shooting at it with 2 full packs of longfangs (1lc and 4ml) - and the hiva tyrant was still alive ! The rest of his rather large army was thus left without being shot at, which lost me the game.

 

I've just done a rought test with it against a biker lord unit (3 bikers pf, 1wg biker pf 1 attack bike and Lord (th,ra,ss,wtn,wtt) ... roughly comparible cost) and it was a total massacre. All bikers other than lord wiped out in 1st round without attacking back. Lord killed Tyranid Prime, but then got pasted next round.

 

How do you / would you deal with this unit best?

[Wysten]

What does your army look like? That would help in suggesting how to help.

 

Space Wolves bikes are not that great to be honest due to the lower skill of the bikers + lack of battle tactics which is much more effective then counter charge for them, and the counter productive expensiveness of the Wolf Guard. Sadly it's just not viable as a raw combat unit due to lack of resistance (Really, your paying for the mobility rather then the resistance) and armour ignoring attacks.

 

I always find Thunder Wolf is the only way to provide a highly mobile, elite foot unit. For 180 you can have three thunderwolf with a Hammer, give the unequiped stormsheilds and you have a hardy unit that has 10 rending attacks and 5 Thunder Hammer at strength 10 on the charge for 240. Get two lots of these and you probably have a simlar, smaller and more efficent combat unit that can also slam into infantry and provide a solid counter attack unit. Wolf lords don't really do the hammer well enough for me on paper when a Thunder wolf mount can do something very simlar for much less. Lords are better with Frost blades/Wolf Claws for cleeving through infantry.

 

Aside from that, best way to deal with it is to fire every single gun at it in one turn of ultra violence. Bolters, meltas, missles and then most probably charge them with combat units. All that firepower directed towards a single unit will inflict serious damage due to quaninty rather then quaility. Then just pray that what you do throw into combat with them can finish the job, one of the weakness's of the Grey Hunter is that they don't deal with monsterious creatures that well.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Have thought of shooting everything see first?

[Wysten]

His description leads me to believe that he only shot at it with the Long Fangs over several turns, he's not shot at it with everything else. At least not that I am aware of. What I suggested that he do was to pile all that firepower of pretty much the army in a single turn, and spend the rest of the time shooting at the support until he has to deal with the Deathstar.

[Muller]

Vindicators, mission complete :D

 

Or a squad of 3 MM + assault cannon speeders to keep the distance while dealing death

[Hotspur]

Have you tried plasma cannons? I find that they work wonders against the 'nids, especially their big gribblies. Just tool your LF squad to specifically take our his "deathstar;" try using five plasma cannons(!) and see what happens... Truly glorious! :D

 

This setup comes in handy against most other things too, especially against a horde army like the 'nids. If you can find the points, I strongly suggest giving it a go!

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK thanks guys - some good advice. I obviously forgot to add the WL had saga of the bear.

 

Probably not a bad idea to throw absolutely everything you can at it on the 1st round, the play mop up with everything else.

My other option was to keep away from it (quite slow moving) - but this annoys me for 2 reasons. (a). As a Wolf, the idea of running isn't one of my fave's (although I know it is needed sometimes) and (:D. with his str 8 guard shots and the xeno's, the rhinos are very vulnerable and tend to get popped, which reduces our movement.

 

Surely the thunderwolves (which I haven't tried) are going to be very vulnerable to the instakill of the boneswords, having 2 wounds?

I'll try a unit of those out in a test fight. Let you know how it goes.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Wysten, the army that I was thinking of was (basically) 1 Runepriest, 3 GH packs in rhinos (with WGpf, standard and motw), the bikers and 2 long fang packs. A few other points to spend, but not much.

[Godhead]

The TWC are vulnerable to the insta kill, but with stormshields they can weather it fairly well. Alternatively, you could dump WG terminators on them too, with a mix of frost blades and th's with stormshields they might be able to pull it off. Terminators would require a transport, either in the form of a DP or LR, and I personally prefer S5/T5 and rending as a base over the WGT.

 

Since this unit is slower, I have found murderous hurricane to be a JOY when going against these types of assault units. Hurricane the tyrant and his guard. None of them have frag grenades, so then EVERYONE is going at Initiative 1. This should let your hammers and power weapons do their job. Just make sure to use MH outside of their 12 inch shadows of the warp bubble.

 

I have grown to like my lord with hammer and bear, I also run a wgbl with a claw and warrior born. This makes people pick their poison. Supported those two with a squad of TWC, and it's hard as nails (although quite expensive).

 

Also MH makes them take difficult terrain tests so it can help take a wound or two off, or possible stall an assault an extra turn.

 

I kind of hate to assault a unit like this, but If you leave those hive guard alone, they'll eat your transports all to hell. That's what I tend to use my TWC for. They are there to kill those things I don't want near my GH's.

[MRC(+)]

This is an instance (one of the few) where Ulrik the Slayer might be useful.

 

If you get him and a unit of 7 WG in TA with TH/SS (you are attacking at Initiative 1 anyway).

 

Now, if you can get the charge against the Tyrannids, here is a likely sequence, based on good old Mathhammer:

 

(1) Nids attack first with 14 re-roll attacks --> makes 12.4 hits --> 8.3 wounds --> 2.74 unsaved wounds (round up to 3)

 

(2) 4WG attack with 12 S8 TH attacks --> re-roll to hit makes 9 hits --> re-roll to wound makes 8.75 unsaved wounds

Ulrik attacks with 5 S4 PW attacls --> re-roll to hits makes 4.44 --> re-roll to wound makes 1.35 unsaved wounds

 

So, total, Space Wolves inflict 9-10 unsaved wounds on the Nids after having lost about 3 of their own troops. Tyranid is down to 1-2 wounds left and loses combat by an average of 6-7 wounds which, being Fearless and outnumbered 2:1, might just finish him off then and there.

 

An alternative method is to get 10 WG with combi-plasma and a drop pod, which causes:

20 attacks --> 13.3 hits --> 8.87 wounds

 

Doesn't kill the entire unit, but takes it down to 2-3 wounds, which makes it much more manageable

[Wysten]

What strength are their Bone Swords? Is it really 10? Possible that they may not be as ideal as I intially throught. But as said, stormsheilds can probably shrug off the worst of it. Easpically if you hit them with a single barrage rather then dedicating a pair of units to them over time. Just means the boys can be wearing at the support until it is made to deal with the Death Star. The bikes may do better in that example, but personally I think the Thunder Wolf does everything else better then the bike. Such as smashing into supportive units and probably coming away largely intact. Resisting power fist sized hits and generally being a bit of a terror weapon. Even if they don't do the damage you might think the foe probably will see them as a big threat.

 

 

As for the army, not too sure what to suggest. Just that it may not offer enough heavy firepower till too late. Staying together to throw Grey Hunters onto a target together is pretty vital.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

You have some options.

 

First off...use your long fangs to splatter that Tervigon.Missile launchers work well for that and they can do well against the hordes with their frag missiles.

 

For 460 points you could send a tooled Wolf lord on Thunderwolf,and 3 Thunderwolf cav, storm shields and one with a thunderhammer,one with a melta bomb.

so you can migrate wounds.

 

You get a Rune priest to set up Murderous hurricane and Jaws of the world wolf....remember these big thingies are not that high initiative.

 

Hell...you want to get really mean...4 rune priests with jaws...they will screw up some rolls. Gve them all bikes so they are mobile and watch the amusement.

4 24 inch lines of instant doom rulling along...they will give your tyranid player a gigantic headache.

 

I dont recommend the 4 RP though...as its a bit on the beardy side.

[Grey Mage]

Two squadrons of 2 Typhoons, since none of the units mentioned have a 2++.

 

Thats 360pts, wich will get you 8 missile shots a turn- an average of five wounds on the unit, three turns will see the tyrant gaurd down, the Tervigon obliterated, and a couple wounds on the Tyrant and Prime- wich you can finish off at close range with plasma guns.

 

You did bring plasmaguns on your Grey Hunters right? And you do have atleast three packs of the boys right? :P.

 

Long Fang fire is just cheap, tasty gravy.

[aekold]

What strength are their Bone Swords? Is it really 10?

 

No, they are powerweapons and for every unsaved wound you have to take a LD-check to stay alive. If the tyranid organism has two boneswords you need to take the test on 3d6.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks again guys.

 

No greymage, I tend to stick with meltas on my GH - and in the recent fight against the deathstar, I didn't use the GH well enough (I also only had 2 units of them.) I have definately upped the units to 3 now. Which I guess begs a question ... bearing in mind the 2 other GH squads have a WG in it - and have meltas and combimeltas - would you have the 3rd unit with plasma instead? If so .... would you ditch the WG and go for 2 plasma's and make this unit a more missile orientated one?

 

I did get to shoot 8 missiles per round at the Deathstar (from my longfangs). Because it had a lictor giving a cover save, it took me 3 full rounds of this shooting before I had appreciably damaged his deathstar.

 

I have never used the landspeeders, but surely with 3x Guard, shooting assault 2 str 8 shots which don't need line of sight, thats 6 x str8 hits. Surely that will just take out 1 unit of LS per turn? Pretty much guaranteed penetrate rolls.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Another few question for you ....

 

2 boneswords ..... do they get an additional attack due to having 2 special weapons (of the same type)? like 2 claws?

1 lashwhip and 1 bonesword ..... do they only get to use one of them per round - due to the differing type of special weapon rule? like 1 wolf claw and 1 frost weapon?

 

Also - disembarking from a vehicle ..... I have been told when you measure the move, it is the BACK of the base you put within 2" of the vehicle exit ... not the front. Where does it actually say this, because I believe the rule just says "within 2inches". My friends "nid" board is disputing this "back of the base" thing.

[aekold]

Nids never get additional attacks for having 2 special weapons. The effects stack however, for example. A warrior with a bonesword, lashwhip and rending claws would result in: you strike at I1, while he strikes with rending powerweapons that can cause ID is you fail a LD check. Combine this with toxin sacs and he will wound on a 4+ an have potential rerolls.

[GeoWolf]

Remember, hive guard hit the armor facing them. Yea, it is still str 8, but he only gets your rear armor if you present it to him. They are annoying, but can be dealt with. Also, pop that tervigon quick, a lack of synapse in the back field will hurt him, causing wounds to nearby gaunts and causing those guards to lurk into terrain.

[Grey Mage]

Thanks again guys.

 

No greymage, I tend to stick with meltas on my GH - and in the recent fight against the deathstar, I didn't use the GH well enough (I also only had 2 units of them.) I have definately upped the units to 3 now. Which I guess begs a question ... bearing in mind the 2 other GH squads have a WG in it - and have meltas and combimeltas - would you have the 3rd unit with plasma instead? If so .... would you ditch the WG and go for 2 plasma's and make this unit a more missile orientated one?

 

I did get to shoot 8 missiles per round at the Deathstar (from my longfangs). Because it had a lictor giving a cover save, it took me 3 full rounds of this shooting before I had appreciably damaged his deathstar.

 

I have never used the landspeeders, but surely with 3x Guard, shooting assault 2 str 8 shots which don't need line of sight, thats 6 x str8 hits. Surely that will just take out 1 unit of LS per turn? Pretty much guaranteed penetrate rolls.

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

Lictors dont give cover saves.... did you mean a venomthrope?

 

As for the Hive Gaurd... their range is Half of what a Typhoons is, you could easily get 4 turns of firing in before youd need to turboboost out of any real danger.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks Greymage. You're right, it was a venomthrope (dunno where I got lictor from)

 

I might well go for that then with the plasmas. What else would you put in the unit? The standard is pretty good, I would definately have a motw (they're bound to end up in some combat) ... would you go for a powefist?

 

You've probably hit the nail on the head with the hive guard. We play on a 6' x 3' table, so range is very rarely an issue. Need to sort that out really.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, 6x3 is going to be brutal, absolutely brutal, on anything.

 

I play on a table thats 44" wide, and still some days I see alot of changes.... let along missing a foot and a half!

 

I run my Plasma squads as 10 men, 2xPG, PF. Totem optional, in a rhino. Im not a fan of Motw- but thats personal preference, nothing more.

 

*shrugs* They work wonders for me- routed a chaos sorceror and his slaaneshi raptors just yesterday in fact, and then continued to pop his partners chimeras as they tried to close in on the objective... three of the pack even survived lol.

[Gerwulf]

I run my Plasma squads as 10 men, 2xPG, PF. Totem optional, in a rhino. Im not a fan of Motw- but thats personal preference, nothing more.

 

That's basically how I run mine, except that I use PW instead of PF. But they usually do really well, except when I continously fail my LD test for counterattack ;)

[Grey Mage]

Yeah... not much you can do about that one. Do you find that LD 9 would have been helpful most of those times?

[Grimtooth]

Yeah... not much you can do about that one. Do you find that LD 9 would have been helpful most of those times?

 

Not me. I usually either pass counterattack easily or fail it miserably.

[Gerwulf]

Yeah... not much you can do about that one. Do you find that LD 9 would have been helpful most of those times?

 

Rarely, I usually roll 10s and 11s on my checks.

 

I recently ordered in some combi melta and plasmas. So I will give the WGs a try. But I'm not sure if they will perform that much better that way.

 

Once I figured out how to use my GH (i.e. playing clever rather then aggressively) I had a major increase in efficiency.

The GH packs working together with each other, but also the rest of the army (LF, dreads) can take on almost anything.

I'll never underestimate rapid firing bolter again.

 

Edit: Oh, and I don't like MotW either, one more thing we have in common!