Tyranid deathstar

[Tsavong Lah]

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

Even though you can equip the WG with a combiplasma and still get the leadership bonus, plus an extra SCCW? Seems like the best deal to me.

[Gerwulf]

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

Even though you can equip the WG with a combiplasma and still get the leadership bonus, plus an extra SCCW? Seems like the best deal to me.

 

without the WG you pay one GH worth of points for the GH and the PG.

 

Paying for a WG with combiplasma and a PF is almost 3 GHs. And you only got one round of shooting with your WG. My GH with PG usually get a fair bit of shooting in the way I use them. And the extra PG does probably more damage than the WG would do.

[Grey Mage]

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

Even though you can equip the WG with a combiplasma and still get the leadership bonus, plus an extra SCCW? Seems like the best deal to me.

I use my Plasma Guns almost every single turn Im not in assault. Thats on average 4 rounds of shooting....

 

You cant buy that many Combi-plasmas.

[hmk17]

So wait... the guy is running the two HQ's neck and neck or is he saying that they are a unit? Big difference there...

[Hear da Lamentation]

If you are referring to the original post about the tyranid deathstar hmk17, he is doing the following.

 

Hive Tyrant is a monstrous creature without "independant character". He can join the guard because of a special ability of theirs (shieldwall I think). This is one unit. Then the Tyranid Prime (which is an independant character) joins this unit. So it is one big, hard as hell hitting unit - all with boneswords (ignoring armour save and instakilling if you fail leadership), lashwhip causing initiative 1, with Str 6, reroll to hits - and partial re-roll to wound. The HT can have regeneration - or he can do a leech ability, which does extra attacks - any of which cause a wound - and he gets that wound back. VERY nasty.

 

Thanks greymage. I will have a look at this and see how it goes. It will be interesting to see how I manage with 3 GH squads. I really need to get at least 2 of them supporting each other (which is often hard to do with only 2 ... as they often have different objectives.)

 

Thinking of this .... I'm thinking one unit concentrating on offence ... trying to take out the hard stuff, backed up by the plasma GH squad and one unit of LF (2 where necessary) and the other GH squad (with the RP) on the flank, heading for the tyrvagon / gaunts. This could be backed up by the other LF unit if necessary. The bikers can be flexible, going with either the 2 GH packs, or the flanking one with the RP.

 

(Very brief summary of army - as I know this isnt the forum for it ....)

 

Crow Pack

RP

8GH melta,standard,motw

1WG combimelta, fist.

Rhino

 

Wolf Pack

9GH melta,standard,motw

1WG combimelta, fist.

Rhino

 

Red Raven Pack

10GH 2xplasmagun, fist

rhino

 

Bikers

4 bikers (fist)

attack bike (multimelta)

Wolf Priest wtt

 

Dread (extra missile and backup for LF)

plasma cannon and tl autocannon

 

(Interested if you would choose something else instead of Dread. I figured the extra shots would be good - and the help for LF as he usually uses Ythgaarl genestealers, who appear in reserve from a nominated terrain point ... hence usually where one of my LF units is positioned.)

[Grey Mage]

Not bad looking.

 

One thing- you know that if Ymgarl genestealers appear within 1" of an enemy unit theyre destroyed, right?

[Hear da Lamentation]

No I didnt know that Greymage.

 

So if he designated a piece of terrain to come into (at the beginning of his deployment) and I fill that terrain with my models and he can't fit all his unit into it - he gets destroyed?

[Hear da Lamentation]

Doh ! I was looking at the army list thinking .... I'm sure there's something missing. Longfangs !!!!

 

Crow Pack

RP

8GH melta,standard,motw

1WG combimelta, fist.

Rhino

 

Wolf Pack

9GH melta,standard,motw

1WG combimelta, fist.

Rhino

 

Red Raven Pack

10GH 2xplasmagun, fist

rhino

 

Bikers

4 bikers (fist)

attack bike (multimelta)

Wolf Priest wtt

 

Dread (extra missile and backup for LF)

plasma cannon and tl autocannon

 

2 full units of LongFangs, with missile launchers

[Grey Mage]

No I didnt know that Greymage.

 

So if he designated a piece of terrain to come into (at the beginning of his deployment) and I fill that terrain with my models and he can't fit all his unit into it - he gets destroyed?

Yep-

 

C:Tyranids, pg. 61, bottom right corner under the heading 'Dormant:', second to last sentence.

 

If any models cannot be placed inside this terrain due to impassable terrain or enemy models within 1", they are destroyed.

 

So yeah, they have to be completely in the terrain, and more than an inch from your men. It specificly states to confirm the border of all terrain before the game too.... so dont let your opponent smudge it if hes going to try and just drop them in.

[hmk17]

If you are referring to the original post about the tyranid deathstar hmk17, he is doing the following.

 

Hive Tyrant is a monstrous creature without "independant character". He can join the guard because of a special ability of theirs (shieldwall I think). This is one unit. Then the Tyranid Prime (which is an independant character) joins this unit. So it is one big, hard as hell hitting unit - all with boneswords (ignoring armour save and instakilling if you fail leadership), lashwhip causing initiative 1, with Str 6, reroll to hits - and partial re-roll to wound. The HT can have regeneration - or he can do a leech ability, which does extra attacks - any of which cause a wound - and he gets that wound back. VERY nasty.

 

I am well aware of their capabilities... I spotted the buff to Boneswords and Lash Whips really quickly when the store copy showed up way back when. It still gets a lot of "They do what?!".

 

Honestly, this is the first time I have seen this strategy... I usually see Primes alone, Swarmlord, or Tervigon Spam.

 

Tyrant Guard are a special unit like a Space Marine Honor Guard (written exactly the same way) and I have never seen anyone having an independent join into it. Different tactics... but seem to be effective.

 

 

Leech isn't that big, S3 isn't that major vs Marines add to it, you have the benefit of mech to shut off things if they get too close. I'd be much more worried with a power like Paroxyism if you have to get into melee with that monster.

 

The Long Fangs will turn the tide there. Krak Missiles will ignore the unit's armor and wound on 2's. 10 missiles on just the LF's means you should be able to shred the unit before it gets close enough to be a problem for them.

 

Grey Mage has you covered on those sneaky stealers... though a Rune Priest with Chooser is a good friend to hang out with the LF's if you can't fill in some terrain.

[Grey Mage]

A Rune Priest is never a bad idea..... but I dont see him giving any extra advantage this time- Ymgarls dont infiltrate, they just deploy, without deepstriking, in a terrain peice through reserves.

[Muller]

So... the nid player MUST declare in what piece of terrain those stealers will appear at the beginning of his deployment?

[Lynnean]

kill the Venomthrope first.... that coversave is something you need to get rid of.

 

afte that, vindicators or Long Fangs'll do the job

[whiteridder]

Well, I play also a tyranid deathstar.

 

Hive Tyrant:

-Armored Shell

-Regeneration

-Scything Talons

-Bonesword / Lashwhip

-Old Adversary

-Paroxysm / Leech Essence

 

*Tyrant Guard x 3:

-Lashwhip

 

Tyranid Prime:

-Dual Bonesword

-Adrenal Glands

-Regeneration

-Rending Claws

 

The guards with or without lashwip. It's a slow unit but you can run with it. Cover is important. You can play dirty wound allocation with this and it's hard to take out. The rest of the army contains some hive guard, zoantrope, some gaunts and some carnifexes or trygons.

 

Take plasmaguns, that's good. Vindicators and devasters works also very good, don't fear the rest of the army, shoot the deathstar.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks Whiteridder. The problem was (with the cover save from the venomthrope) as I mentioned, I shot 10 ML a turn at the deathstar for 3 turns without destroying it. Game ended on turn 5 and by then the rest of his army had been pretty much untouched and he considerably outnumbered me in troops (it was a 5 objective game.) Plus, if you ignore the Tyrvigon for most of the game, the little bleeder will have spawned a new army.

 

hmk17 - thanks for the advice. Sorry if I overexplained it .... it's all new to me, so I wasn't sure how much you knew.

 

Muller - they do have do "declare" which terrain they are coming in ... but this is a secret which is written down. They don't tell you which bit of terrain it is.

[Hear da Lamentation]

As usual, I have to say a big thanks to all the replies, help and advice. The Wolves on this board are fantastic. It's given me a lot to think about.

 

Nice one !

 

H.D.L.

[DemetriiTZ]

I'm actually "VoraciousApathy", from the Tyranid Hive -- the guy who popularized this "build", as such. Let me begin by saying that shooting is the least effective way of killing the Deathstar, as the majority of the squad is purposefully built to be non-Monstrous, and thus benefits from a 4+ cover save by simply having the Tyrant Guards and Prime screened behind a squad or two of Gants. Being that over 50% of the squad itself counts as being "in cover", the entire squad benefits from being "in cover", in precisely the same manner as a squadron of vehicles.

 

Second, engaging this squad in melee with 6+ TDA guys, with TH/SS, is a very hard, and very inefficient thing to pull off. You're spending points on a Land Raider for safe delivery, or else trying to footslog, and both of those situations are avoidable with a fair amount of ease, assuming he is properly supporting his Tyrant with oceans of Gants -- pile enough Gants in front of the Tyrant, and you won't even have room to disembark, much less charge. If you footslog them, what makes you think he's going to allow you to walk up unscathed? Those poor idiots with sledgehammers don't have a snowball's chance against 15-20 Furious Charging, Preferred Enemy, Poisoned Attack Gants, and even their fleshborers have a fair shot of sheering off a Hammer or two.

 

Thirdly, and this is a big one, the Tyrant is designed to be a varied-role support monster with a big "Shoot Me" sign attached, because a.) he can happily suck up dozens of lascannon shots with cheap cover saves, wound allocation, and regeneration, and b.) he is a problem, even when he is not in combat, because he ends up making even 'Nids who are mediocre (by 'Nid standards) in melee go from "whatever", to somewhere between "kind of good" to "Oh God, get it off of me". 3 Hive Guard with Preferred Enemy get 6 S8 shots at BS4, followed by 9 S5 attacks with Preferred Enemy. Sure, it's not terrifying to a dedicated assault squad, but it'll make a Tactical Squad flinch, and will probably give even a Chaos Marine squad a bloody nose.

 

Finally, Jaws is neither a reliable, nor "balanced" approach for handling the Deathstar -- the lowest initiative value in the squad is a Tyrant Guard, and Mr. Tyrant Guard is still I4, so he's only dying on a 5 or a 6. Sure, if you pile 4 Jaws into your army, you'll pop these fellows fine.. The problem is, Jaws kind of sucks when you spam it versus other armies, and tailoring your army specifically to handle someone else's army build is nothing more than an escalating arms' race. In other words, it's no fantastic accomplishment to say you tabled a guy with 6 Carnifexes, if you knew he was bringing them a week in advance, and loaded up on Runepriest Jaws.

 

__________

 

You wanna know what the best answer is? It really depends on your army; sacrificial squads can do the trick, if you play Imperial Guard -- blobs can hold it off for a few rounds. If you play Marines, I really have no idea. Marines, by and large, have a terribly difficult time of doing anything about this unit, because the army built around the unit is designed to cripple mobility, while the Deathstar simply wanders around, buffing squads, shooting things, soaking shots, and kicking objective campers off of their objectives.

 

Thunderwolves get absolutely demolished by the Deathstar, which, when properly built, has 22 power-weapon attacks on the charge, which inflict Instant Death regardless of toughness, Rend, strike at varying Initiative levels (which screws an opponent's wound allocation, as wounds are allocated in Ini. order), and test for that Insta-Death on a model's leadership (not the squad's; it is a characteristic test). Sure, you have a 3++, but if you fail 3 or 4 of those, a massive chunk of your squad is probably vaped, or horribly maimed.

 

My advice, as a Marine, is to try and avoid it, and focus on other things until the late game. Just accept that it will stay alive, and will be kicking over your Supermen for most of the game, and making life difficult, and when the game is down to the final turns, try to gang up on it with as many squads as you can, unload with every gun available, and smash it as hard as you can with massed powerfists, and whatever else, or else try to tie it down with an expendable squad, fence it in with Cruising Speed Rhinos, etc.. Focus on stopping it or pinning it down, not killing it or engaging it; I promise you, it is built to demolish the vast majority of everything in melee.

 

It's basically a Tyranid version of Eldrad; you know he's sitting around, Fortune'ing and Guide'ing stuff, and you really wish you could dig him out of the back field, but he just requires too many resources and over-extension to do anything about, unless your opponent is an idiot and charges into melee. Just accept it, take the punches on the chin, try to minimize the damage, and corral or tie it up in end-game. Just be very careful about squad placement -- this squad loves to charge something nearby, like a Tactical Squad, beat it in 2 seconds flat, and "piggyback" deeper into your side of the board. Needless to say, if it reaches your lines.. it hurts. A lot.

 

Also, Longfang Kraks are rather ineffective; a 4+ cover save from Gants, a 4+ Feel No Pain from Catalyst (which they should have), and a 2+ save on the Tyrant, all with T6, and with both the Prime and Tyrant capable of taking not only cover saves (or armor saves, in the Tyrant's case), and Feel No Pain, but also being able to regenerate missing wounds on a roll of 6, you can feed Krak Missiles to the squad all day, and they'll eat them up and ask for seconds. Meanwhile, lascannons are uber-expensive, and short-range stuff like plasma and melta mean you're probably getting charged next turn, and probably won't do appreciable damage anyway. Melta fires too few shots, and plasma Gets Hot! and wounds on a 3 due to T6, before having to punch through cover.

[Godhead]

Murderous hurricane them, then drive up and bust a cap in their a$$ with a LRR, you can screen your raider with the contents of the raider. If they try to charge your LRR, then they should go at INT 1 (this is assuming you screened the front or side so that you raider is protected but your side sponson cannon can reach out and touch someone) as well because im pretty sure they don't have frags. They won't get any cover saves, most wont get armor saves, and if you have the RP within 18inches but outside of 12, then he may not even have FNP due to the rune staff. Just keep the runepriest out of shadows of the warp range and shoot them.

 

In all reality though. You can skip the LRR if you want (thats just my favorite flame template platform these days and it seems like Nids struggle a bit with Land Raiders unless they assault it with their MC). You should just be able to MH and then pose a significant shooting threat that they'd most likely want to charge. (of course you need to try to protect them from his other units though).

[Iacton Qruze]

As a Space Wolf, your best bet is the MH Priest. the 3d6 hits might do some damage, but the joy is in the DT. He can take wounds from it, and them striking with you is not something the nid player will want to do. Furthermore, getting within 18" for the MH means the RP and squad are probably going to be his melee target, which means you're within the 24" to attempt to nullify his psychic powers.

 

Fight on your terms like that, and you can put a big dent in the unit from something as simple at a Grey Hunter squad. Don't leave home without that WGPL with a fist, either, for putting some extra pain on the SL.

[Grey Mage]

.....

Thirdly, and this is a big one, the Tyrant is designed to be a varied-role support monster with a big "Shoot Me" sign attached, because a.) he can happily suck up dozens of lascannon shots with cheap cover saves, wound allocation, and regeneration, and b.) he is a problem, even when he is not in combat, because he ends up making even 'Nids who are mediocre (by 'Nid standards) in melee go from "whatever", to somewhere between "kind of good" to "Oh God, get it off of me". 3 Hive Guard with Preferred Enemy get 6 S8 shots at BS4, followed by 9 S5 attacks with Preferred Enemy. Sure, it's not terrifying to a dedicated assault squad, but it'll make a Tactical Squad flinch, and will probably give even a Chaos Marine squad a bloody nose.

Is this just being within 6" of the tyrant and old enemy, or are you saying that youve joined a tyrant to the hive gaurd?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I use my Plasma Guns almost every single turn Im not in assault. Thats on average 4 rounds of shooting....

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

You use 2 Pg packs? :huh: Interesting :geek: . I guess these guys perform a midfield take and hold roll?

I'd love a run-down of how you use them, as in

T1 move+run

T2 move+run or move+shoot

etc.

 

I think against a Russian-crushem army, their use is apparent.

How do you use them against shooty movey armies?

 

Is it just because Pg are the only shooty SW Greys can get and you don't feel, want or need to get them into mêlée?

Do you drive them around 6" and twin RF with them?

Do you feel you don't deal with ≥MEq well without them?

When do you RF with them on foot:

• When you are not sure the enemy is within 6"?

• Even when within 6"?

• Only within 6" when against someone more killy in mêlée?

 

I run my Plasma squads as 10 men, 2xPG, PF. Totem optional, in a rhino. Im not a fan of Motw- but thats personal preference, nothing more.

MotW is good. d6+1 with rending.

2-7 attacks.

I think of it like a Flamer. It puts out a lot of attacks. The volume works well against poor armour things, and even against MEq the volume plus rending works for that too.

Combine it with the Standard and you're cooking with gas. :D

 

The PF is very expensive. Templars get it for 10 less and get re-rolls to hit, and still we are not glad for it. Is it just to cover you in case of Dreadlock?

That seems like expensive insurance for a shooty squad....

 

As an aside, Ld 8 is 26/36 or 72.2% and Ld 9 is 30/36 or 83.3%

You could think of it as being 11.1% over Ld8

or Ld 9 being 115.4% better than Ld 8.

 

Perhaps you don't need it for a shooty squad, but still it is nice to know what's what instead of using your gut 'I always fail/pass it anyway' feeling :lol:

[Grey Mage]

I use my Plasma Guns almost every single turn Im not in assault. Thats on average 4 rounds of shooting....

I would take the two plasma guns over the wolf gaurd any day of the week- you dont need to assault what never gets close to you after all.

 

You use 2 Pg packs? :huh: Interesting :geek: . I guess these guys perform a midfield take and hold roll?

I'd love a run-down of how you use them, as in

T1 move+run

T2 move+run or move+shoot

etc.

Theyre a backbone unit. How exactly theyre used depends upon the opponent, game type, and terrain. However, common points are:

 

Taking, and then holding, objectives. Their good ranged punch and all around strength via the PF gives them the ability to take objectives against most 'holder' units like tac squads and fire warriors, while giving them ranged punch to keep them a viable component of my force late in the game.

 

S7 Plasma weaponry is great against... almost everything. With enough midstrength shots to obliterate light armor and reliably damage enemy transports, it also has the ability to take down monstrous creatures *often finished off by the power fist during counter-charge* and easily doubles my shootings effect against tacticals and tda- both of wich are common opponents.

 

The powerfist is expensive, but it gives me an all around ability to smack things. Most vehicles at AV 10 rear, a few AV 11... a powerfist, even with two attacks, again easily doubles or triples my damage against a vehicle because of the reliable pens. Its also a wonderful deterent....

 

I think against a Russian-crushem army, their use is apparent.

How do you use them against shooty movey armies?

As shooting- S7 as noted is great against most of the armor in the game- wich is AV 10-12. Its also good against battle suits, as the large number of shots ignoring armor helps me punch through shield generators and drones to the suits underneath. Did I mention that Tau are one of my most common opponents?

 

Since I play them aggressive-mech the ability to reduce enemy shooting by stopping a tank or decimating an enemy unit thats to close for comfort. They cant assault anyways 9/10, so I better make the shooting worth while eh? Of course, they dont do it alone- Long Fangs, a Dread or two, and possibly typhoons tend to help secure their disembarkation point.

 

Is it just because Pg are the only shooty SW Greys can get and you don't feel, want or need to get them into mêlée?

Do you drive them around 6" and twin RF with them?

Do you feel you don't deal with ≥MEq well without them?

When do you RF with them on foot:

• When you are not sure the enemy is within 6"?

• Even when within 6"?

• Only within 6" when against someone more killy in mêlée?

When Disembarking. Wich is only when I know I have the initiative. These guys are good at taking that initiative and holding it- once the balls in my court, its my job to keep it rolling the way I want it... thats how you win.

 

When moving it depends- if theyre up close and personal, Ill rapid fire to reduce enemy shooting and/or assault capability, other times Ill run to get them into an advanced position with cover, where they can act as 24" fire support on subsequent turns.

 

Ill often shoot even when facing something, like a tactical squad, that is less melee capable than myself- UNLESS the opponent is far superior in shooting than myself. Example- SS equiped plasma command squad I faced in a tournament last month, and plasma cannon devastators in cover.

 

I run my Plasma squads as 10 men, 2xPG, PF. Totem optional, in a rhino. Im not a fan of Motw- but thats personal preference, nothing more.

MotW is good. d6+1 with rending.

2-7 attacks.

I think of it like a Flamer. It puts out a lot of attacks. The volume works well against poor armour things, and even against MEq the volume plus rending works for that too.

Combine it with the Standard and you're cooking with gas. :P

Meh. I dont like it for fluff reasons- one of the worst reasons to be against something tactically, I know.

 

Im also a proponent of Powerweapons *wich are found in my melta-hunter packs* wich I find to be far more reliable- the number of attacks is usualy less, but I have the ability to completely remove armor and FNP saves from the equation, reliably. I dont want to be praying for sixes on the wound roll when I could be hoping for 4's... versus TDA for example. Now of course, against orks, or the largest form of IG blobs, MotW really shines- but in that case Ive always brought a good 30 GHs *at 1k-1.5k* and a whirlwind as common sights in my army..... so why shift my focus to antihorde when SWs naturally have an edge over them?

 

Of course, one could take both- but I hate having a GH squad go over 240pts, as I find it to be diminishing returns. Id rather save points enough to bring more support, or another GH squad entirely in larger battles. *Example- I field 50 GHs in DPs for one of my favorite 2k lists, along with a pair of dreads, and support- with two throwaway pods for better flex*.

 

The PF is very expensive. Templars get it for 10 less and get re-rolls to hit, and still we are not glad for it. Is it just to cover you in case of Dreadlock?

That seems like expensive insurance for a shooty squad....

As Ive explained, its a very active, and capable, part of the squad.

 

The fact that it means Im not absolutely screwed when an Ironclad is nearby is just gravy. It isnt something that should happen, but frankly it never hurts to be prepared. And god forbid I need them to charge a sentinel or something similar....

 

As an aside, Ld 8 is 26/36 or 72.2% and Ld 9 is 30/36 or 83.3%

You could think of it as being 11.1% over Ld8

or Ld 9 being 115.4% better than Ld 8.

 

Perhaps you don't need it for a shooty squad, but still it is nice to know what's what instead of using your gut 'I always fail/pass it anyway' feeling :lol:

I tend to pass. Im ok with failing, on average, once every game to every second game- the impact of the second special weapon in three-five squads is more significant with my playstyle. Meltahunters absolutely demand the second shot in order to reliably destroy armor, and Plasmahunter packs get far to much work out of their guns to silence one of them for my enemies.

 

Flamers... maybe. But I only use them in the largest of battles, or cityfights, but when I feel the need to bring them to a standard game Ill usually pair them with a Meltagun, just in case, and run two squads. Its less of bringing flamer squads than it is diversifying my Melta-hunters.

 

Does that answer your questions my friend? Or do you need more info on anything?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Wow, that was pretty good. :jaw:

 

I forget that Greys get Krak grenades. Poor 4th ed Templars :jaw:

 

What does your Tau foe play with?

 

You end up using this unit as a Tac squad, with the deterrent of actually being competent in mêlée. Interesting.

I think UM players would like to have 2 SW sometimes.

Any reason that you don't get them into combat, other than the investment in Pg?

 

Not taking something because you don't like it earns time in the Glove, though you'd have to shave so it didn't get bunged up :jaw:

 

Drives-bys with flamers and Rhinos are a wonderful thing. I'm not sure if it is worth Mg or Pg though.

 

Power weapons versus MotW

1] 2a - 1h - 0.5 wounds

2] 3a - 1.5h - 0.75 wounds

Same against Orks -> SangGuard

 

d6+1a *Not taking into account Rending

A] 2a - 1h - 0.5w

0.41 dead Boy. 0.17 dead Marine

 

B] 3a - 1.5h - 0.75w

0.63 dead Boy. 0.25 dead Marine

 

C] 4a - 2h - 1w

0.83 dead Boy. 0.33 dead Marine

 

D] 5a - 2.5h - 1.25w

1.04 dead Boy. 0.41 dead marine

 

E] 6a - 3h - 1.5w

1.25 dead Boy. 0.5 dead Marine

 

F] 7a - 3.5h - 1.75w

1.46 dead Boy. 0.58 dead Marine

 

G] 8a - 4h - 2w

1.67 dead Boy. 0.66 dead Marine

 

Rolls of a 3 or 4 [C and D] are not that far behind 2 PW attacks....

 

If you count 1/3 of the wounds as Rends, you get a figure like this for [D]

1.25w. 0.83 normal & 0.41 rend.

0.27 + 0.41 = 0.69 dead Marines.

 

Nearly the same as 3 PW attacks.... [if my maths is solid]

 

+++

 

I think Melta squads, who by nature are in the action, could do with the Wolf Guard for Ld 9 and 2 PF attacks. A combi-melta is not as good as a Mg but how many shots on AV are you getting from your usual Melta-hunters anyway?

 

2 Mg + PF Squad of 10 = 180

1 Mg + WG [PF & combi-Mg] = 183

 

They are less likely to run and more likely to counter-attack.

 

Plasma squads don't need it.

 

+++

 

My theoryhammer will be that the new DEldar will show up the Greys one weakness, lack of reach.

Against Russian armies, Greys bolter blaze away.

Against Shooty armies, Greys can become Russian.

But against the most mobile army, who is very shooty, I think they'll finally get shown up.

What do you think?

[Iacton Qruze]

I think that a lot of the DE terror can be countered by the SW. The same things that lock down other fast elements, will still work on DE, but with their seeming lack of psychic defense, there will be little to stop it from happening. And let's face it, speed will be something the DE truly rely on. Their shootiness, while damaging, will not carry near as much weight without the speed it is mounted on.

 

I think that the power level of the two forces, combined with how each's rules interact with one another, will make a SW/DE match up really come down to dice and the tactical instincts of each player.

[Grey Mage]

Wow, that was pretty good. :P

 

I forget that Greys get Krak grenades. Poor 4th ed Templars :)

 

What does your Tau foe play with?

About 1 squad of fire warriors per 500pts, Broadsides, 1-2 Crisis suits, some stealth suits... pathfinders.... occaisionally vespid. About half of his Firewarriors are mounted. Thats the guy I play against almost every week- theres four other Tau players in the area that I see on a regular basis *game once or twice in a three month period* who run everything from Kroot heavy *bleh* to solid suits and minimum fire warrior squads in devilfish.

 

Any reason that you don't get them into combat, other than the investment in Pg?

Because, each GH gets 2 Attacks at I 11, and ignores some armor saves- and hits on 3's. If Im in assault theyre just as likely to hit on 4's and only ignore armor on the fist.... So, why charge when I can better get in a round of assault without the pesky need to let the guy assault back?

 

Ill charge with them, as I said, if I feel theyre in danger... but 9/10 its better for me to let them charge me after Ive shot them up a bit. A few exceptions of course, like Berzerkers, and larger boyz mobz. *Though why a larger boyz mob is still around when it hits my lines, I dunno...*

 

 

I think Melta squads, who by nature are in the action, could do with the Wolf Guard for Ld 9 and 2 PF attacks. A combi-melta is not as good as a Mg but how many shots on AV are you getting from your usual Melta-hunters anyway?

 

2 Mg + PF Squad of 10 = 180

1 Mg + WG [PF & combi-Mg] = 183

 

They are less likely to run and more likely to counter-attack.

 

Plasma squads don't need it.

Depends on the game. Against people with alot of tanks..... more. 'Duh'. But to be serious I usually take a shot the turn they disembark, and try to make it count- explosions are a favorite result, despite the dangers of being within 6" of a bomb. If the enemy is packing alot of artillery Ill take the two shots from inside the rhino until things are a little safer, then walk out and shoot+assault the next turn.

 

Meltahunter packs however dont get Powerfists. They get Powerweapons- to give them a little more of an edge against Meq units and firewarriors. Any Dread should be melta'd before it gets to them, and again I dont send anyone in without support.

 

My theoryhammer will be that the new DEldar will show up the Greys one weakness, lack of reach.

Against Russian armies, Greys bolter blaze away.

Against Shooty armies, Greys can become Russian.

But against the most mobile army, who is very shooty, I think they'll finally get shown up.

What do you think?

I think its another good reason to have Plasma Hunters- 24" reach thatll actually hurt an Eldar vehicle. Most eldar weapons are short ranged *I should know, theyre my first army*. The current trend towards meched up eldar actually keeps GHs rather effective- Adding a transport doubles the price of the squad inside it, cuts down on early shooting, for the hopes of enhanced protection. 4-5 S7 shots have a good chance of damaging the vehicle, and thats just from one GH squad... if the thing explodes, on average, youve lost three aspect warriors. Thats harsh. Anywho, volume of fire has proven itself time and again to be the best solution to enemy vehicles, and with similar abilities *though less accuracy of course* to a Rifleman dread they can atleast make an Eldar player flinch. Keepem in cover, make him come to you, and dont spread out to much.

 

Now, if Waveserpents see a drastic points drop- and they should- thatll help. Long Fangs can only help out so much in an all comers list.... so I think well see some of the changes that C:SM has had to do to keep up with the times- a higher reliance on Typhoons, bike squads being more common, and since SWs cant get MLs in their squads I might even try using HKs again... though my record with them is strikingly abysmal.

 

Frankly though, the greatest threat to a GH pack hasnt changed since 3rd edition- its a unit of Dark Reapers. 2 S8 shots to bust open the transport- at BS 5, often twin linked, and then 10 shots at AP3 to rip them apart... again, often twin linked, wounding on 2's or 3's depending. Ive mowed down 8 marines in a turn with these guys, reliably, most games Ive played with them. Its hard to for most marine players to wrap their heads around I dont get an armor save? Wich is something an Eldar player needs to understand. If they dont have alot of experience against eldar theyll take stupid risks, and their men will suffer for it.

 

Wich is probly whatll hit the SWs hardest if/when a new eldar book comes out. The monochrome luster of the current eldar lists just isnt as common as it could be, and alot of these bloodclaws are going to be in for a rude awakening. In some ways playing against them is an entirely different game- so many of the normal rules are changed, or circumvented, that you have to pay attention more than normal and maybe do some homework. Of course, SWs wont be alone in this....