Joasht Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Terrible model aside (I do like his wings though. Are they separate from his body?) I've been thinking of running him in my lists. If you do the math (based off old codices and other codices) he is slightly overcosted, possibly to pay for his 3+ invulnerable save (which, if you "count as" the cost of a Storm Shield he comes close). For his very many points, you basically get a one-man unit that you can trust to stay alive assuming you aren't being silly with him (2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior is awesome), which is more than I can say for most HQ units in the codex right off the bat as even Mephiston can be laid low by a lucky instant death. He has a good number of attacks (S5 and master crafted to boot) which means he doesn't suffer from the Astorath Syndrome (3A for an expensive character. Sure S6 and rerolls invul, but seriously, 3A....). In addition, he is also effectively a Chapter Banner that stacks with the Chapter Banner if I'm not mistaken, giving the people around him possibly +2A, which is fairly scary. You don't necessarily need to plonk him straight into combat in some circumstances, you could just have him hang around at the back and give his massive +1A bubble bonus until the enemy is sufficiently thinned down for him to wade in safely. Since he isn't an IC he can hang 1" away from a squad without accidentally auto-joining them ;) I can see the attack bonus being fairly powerful at larger games particularly if you go for heavy infantry builds (like what I usually do), e.g. many jump pack troops possibly with bikes. Like many of our other force multipliers (Chapter Banner, Sanguinary Priest) the more men you have the greater his impact will be felt, so I'm looking at him more from a non/less-mechanized point of view. Lastly you have a chance to upgrade one of your Sergeants into a 3rd ed. Commander, which if you have upgraded all your Sergeants with equipment is not too bad a choice as it gives you another pseudo-HQ unit. So my theoryhammering aside (I haven't gotten a chance to try him yet, not to mention I've yet to convert a model for him), what do you guys think of him? I'm particularly interested in actual play experience rather than theoryhammering since I can see why (in theory) people may or may not take him, but I'm interested to know how he holds out in actual play. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 I've a 1750 Reclusiarch/2priest/10CCtermie/2scout/3HKwhirly army that uses him. The bonus attacks he adds on the termie+IC squad alone is worth more than any question over his potential 'expense'... and the occasional uber termie sgt is just... whee! Plus, he's a bloody good sweeping advancer. His jp is what makes him workable IMO. His fire-magnetism can be quite unnerving though. =/ keep him in CC. I've deliberately charged him against a dread a few times. Yes, break the CC arm(s) first! when/if I get a SR, he'll be in it for 2k armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tame Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 In addition, he is also effectively a Chapter Banner that stacks with the Chapter Banner if I'm not mistaken, giving the people around him possibly +2A, which is fairly scary. Small correction: There is a major difference between Sanguinor's bonus and the Chapter Banner bonus. Chapter Banner does NOT give people around +1A. It only works for the unit the banner is in. They do stack though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 In addition, he is also effectively a Chapter Banner that stacks with the Chapter Banner if I'm not mistaken, giving the people around him possibly +2A, which is fairly scary. Small correction: There is a major difference between Sanguinor's bonus and the Chapter Banner bonus. Chapter Banner does NOT give people around +1A. It only works for the unit the banner is in. They do stack though. Thats true, I had thought it was a pseudo-Holy Relic as per the old codices. Good thing I haven't taken it against anyone yet o_o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 my most recent experience? Mind war... D'oh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 hi main weaknes is small arms fire. with only toughness bolters will wound half the time. his artificer armour may do him a lot of good but with only 3 wounds...meh. as for model, just paint astro gold and use him...sorted... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 hi main weaknes is small arms fire. with only toughness bolters will wound half the time. his artificer armour may do him a lot of good but with only 3 wounds...meh. as for model, just paint astro gold and use him...sorted... But then again thats true for virtually anything with a 2+ save, like Terminators. Quick check, he does get FNP from Priests, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 hi main weaknes is small arms fire. with only toughness bolters will wound half the time. his artificer armour may do him a lot of good but with only 3 wounds...meh. as for model, just paint astro gold and use him...sorted... But then again thats true for virtually anything with a 2+ save, like Terminators. Quick check, he does get FNP from Priests, right? Yep, priests within 6 inches will provide Sanguinor with FNP Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 hi main weaknes is small arms fire. with only toughness bolters will wound half the time. his artificer armour may do him a lot of good but with only 3 wounds...meh. as for model, just paint astro gold and use him...sorted... But then again thats true for virtually anything with a 2+ save, like Terminators. Quick check, he does get FNP from Priests, right? Yep, priests within 6 inches will provide Sanguinor with FNP Which makes him even more powerful! Ran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 yea but a squad of thunderhammer and storm sheild termies are cheaper...yea i know all the other differences but they are more survivable... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 That doesnt make them better though. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 Not that you have to CHOOSE between the Terminators and the Sanguinor, you could just go for both as mentioned earlier. 3A base TH/SS Terminators will make anyone wet themselves..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Only someone who cant outmanouvre them. You can spend 1500 points on 30 Assault terminators and the Sanguinor, I'll spend 150 on 3 attack bikes with heavy bolters. Now who's gonna win? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranwulf Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Only someone who cant outmanouvre them. You can spend 1500 points on 30 Assault terminators and the Sanguinor, I'll spend 150 on 3 attack bikes with heavy bolters. Now who's gonna win? The Sanguinor. He flies. Ran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 150 points vs 1500, 1500 winss... 6 squad spread, plus the sanginator flying, they will catch you eventually. now if you had said 1500 points of attacks bikes vs those termies and sangy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 'Loath to quote myself, but I don't think I was very clear and wish to clarify my intent. I've a 1750 Reclusiarch/2priest/10CCtermie/2scout/3HKwhirly army that uses him. The bonus attacks he adds on the termie+IC squad alone is worth more than any question over his potential 'expense'... and the occasional uber termie sgt is just... whee! Plus, he's a bloody good sweeping advancer. His jp is what makes him workable IMO. His fire-magnetism can be quite unnerving though. =/ keep him in CC. I've deliberately charged him against a dread a few times. Yes, break the CC arm(s) first! when/if I get a SR, he'll be in it for 2k armies. Many balk at his price. I was pointing out that when he adds attacks to already powerful units as in the army above, any difference in value between him and many other HQs increases heavily in his favour. For my 10 termie and IC unit, one could argue the increase in attacks is worth around 20% (very conservative IMO) of the total points of the models themselves which is well over 100. Subtract that from his cost and he's in effect, cheap as chips. Our libbies and chappies get this kind of action going on too of course, but the libbies require a test or two and chappies have a slighter buff and neither have his raw stats let alone his other special rules. High point infantry heavy games with good terrain, he's a god. I observed a PStrike game with him in a building/ruin thing (no easy LOS to him). He easily generated over 100 extra attacks through the course of it for the BAs and his SW ally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 I think the Sanguinor is the best special character in the codex plus I love the mystery surrounding him. He is very expensive and is vulnerable to torrented small arms fire. Therefore I see him as a specialist. It helps to design your list carefully if you field him. I always run him in a SR for protection and with a dreadnaught for that extra oomph. Once he reachs close combat he is a beast. I like that his attributes are very reliable. His high initiative and weapon skill are big plusses, I think he will do fine versus the new dark eldar. 0b ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 I've run him exactly once, and the most notable thing he did was punch the Eldar Avatar in the balls and take him down in a single round of combat. Unfortunately setting him up to take on the Avatar meant that he couldn't support the rest of my army with all his lovely extra attacks, so I can't speak for what difference they did or didn't make. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 The Sanguinor is awesome. I run a jump army and ensure they bunch together for as long as possible. I try and make sure he is close enough to give at least 3 squads +1 attack. Assault marines with a priest supported by the Sanguinor are enough to get the job done. If I work it right and have my furioso in the same area. It's just a bloodbath! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaleOpener Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Terrible model aside (I do like his wings though. Are they separate from his body?) I've been thinking of running him in my lists. If you do the math (based off old codices and other codices) he is slightly overcosted, possibly to pay for his 3+ invulnerable save (which, if you "count as" the cost of a Storm Shield he comes close). For his very many points, you basically get a one-man unit that you can trust to stay alive assuming you aren't being silly with him (2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior is awesome), which is more than I can say for most HQ units in the codex right off the bat as even Mephiston can be laid low by a lucky instant death. He has a good number of attacks (S5 and master crafted to boot) which means he doesn't suffer from the Astorath Syndrome (3A for an expensive character. Sure S6 and rerolls invul, but seriously, 3A....). In addition, he is also effectively a Chapter Banner that stacks with the Chapter Banner if I'm not mistaken, giving the people around him possibly +2A, which is fairly scary. You don't necessarily need to plonk him straight into combat in some circumstances, you could just have him hang around at the back and give his massive +1A bubble bonus until the enemy is sufficiently thinned down for him to wade in safely. Since he isn't an IC he can hang 1" away from a squad without accidentally auto-joining them :P I can see the attack bonus being fairly powerful at larger games particularly if you go for heavy infantry builds (like what I usually do), e.g. many jump pack troops possibly with bikes. Like many of our other force multipliers (Chapter Banner, Sanguinary Priest) the more men you have the greater his impact will be felt, so I'm looking at him more from a non/less-mechanized point of view. Lastly you have a chance to upgrade one of your Sergeants into a 3rd ed. Commander, which if you have upgraded all your Sergeants with equipment is not too bad a choice as it gives you another pseudo-HQ unit. So my theoryhammering aside (I haven't gotten a chance to try him yet, not to mention I've yet to convert a model for him), what do you guys think of him? I'm particularly interested in actual play experience rather than theoryhammering since I can see why (in theory) people may or may not take him, but I'm interested to know how he holds out in actual play. Thanks! You forgot to mention the rule which allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, against an opponent HQ, chosen at the start of the game. He beats plenty of face :) I like him :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 You forgot to mention the rule which allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, against an opponent HQ, chosen at the start of the game. He beats plenty of face :wub: Without intending to derail the thread, how does this stack up compared to Dante's debuff on enemy ICs? Which do people who've used both often feel is more helpful? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I run both Dante and the Sanguinor. In a game versus CSM I used both Dante's curse and the Sanguinor's buff versus Abbadon. The Sanguinor was able to defeat Abbadon after two furious rounds of close combat and only took one wound. Before the new codex I did not have a good solution for dealing with Abbadon in assault, now I do. 0b :wub: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderSamirus Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 You forgot to mention the rule which allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, against an opponent HQ, chosen at the start of the game. He beats plenty of face :wub: Without intending to derail the thread, how does this stack up compared to Dante's debuff on enemy ICs? Which do people who've used both often feel is more helpful? I've used both several times. As a matter of fact for a while I ran a Dante/Sanguinor list and people hated me for it. In the space of two evenings of gaming he killed the Avatar, Logan Grimnar, and Azrael. In each instant it only took one round of combat, seeing Grimnar with only two wounds starting out makes me laugh. The only times he's even died in my games has been to some interesting shenanigans of my opponents or by a serious mistake of my own. First game he died in he scattered onto a hill top in clean line of sight to a Zzap gun battery and I forgot to "run" him off of the hill. The Zzap guns (only two of them thankfully) folled only a 4 for their strength and I said to myself "I've got this". My opponent rolled a pair of 5's for the wound and then I failed 2 3+ saves, later his last wound was taken by several big shootas. The only other time I recall of the top of my head was when I charged him into a unit of Grey Hunters with Ragnar Blackmane, he got his target killed (Ragnar) then got cut down by S5 counter-attacking Grey Hunters. After the game I checked the SW FAQ and is said they of course didn't get Furious Charge when they counter-attacked just as I said they shouldn't. All said he's a great choice. -Samirus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2522975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted September 28, 2010 Author Share Posted September 28, 2010 Only someone who cant outmanouvre them. You can spend 1500 points on 30 Assault terminators and the Sanguinor, I'll spend 150 on 3 attack bikes with heavy bolters. Now who's gonna win? ........Who on earth is ever going to take 30 terminators? For the sake of discussions please don't give examples that no one would use...... Maleopener: Regarding the reroll thing yeah, I see it as purely a bonus though, since its so limited (literally, one target that you have to get into melee with). Not the hardest thign to do but there are times when its simply better to take something else out first. I did, however, forget to mention FC, which he gets built-in. S6 I7 A6 (+Mastercrafted) is just bloody vicious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2523090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Does anyone have some well-working Sanguinor lists? Does he work in 1000 point lists? 1500 points? Or does he really only shine in 1850+ points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212011-the-sanguinor/#findComment-2523092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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