Call animal control!

[Seahawk]

How many people around here hit the tournament scene these days? I recently went to one where, out of 20 players, 9 were Space Wolves with TWC. I unfortunately got my second game against the nastiest list there too; 1850 points and something like 2x rocket long fangs, 3x 6 Grey Hunters, 3x razorback w/las/plas, runepriest, 2 lords on TW and 5 TWC with stormshields and different equipment on each like nob bikers. Infinitely better of course.

 

It kinda went like this:

He gets within ~13" of me.

My turn one, I shoot at the TWC. Cause a wound.

His turn 2, he charges a predator and dreadnought. Kill the dreadnought, no losses.

My turn 2, I shoot at the TWC again. Cause a wound.

His turn 3, he charges 30 marines, a rhino, and predator. Kills every single one (tacticals fled off the table; they had all shot at the TWC in My turn hoping for more effect than tickling).

And then we play out 2 more turns, during which I get wiped. Total elapsed time: ~45 minutes.

 

My personal highlight of the game was that my rhino squished the TWC with the power fist, after he only punched off my storm bolter.

 

For you tournament goers, how many SW players do you see now? Is the only way to deal with TWC in a single turn (as that's all you get) a triple-vindicator?

 

Are SW the new SM in terms of meta-gaming? As in, if you can deal with TWC, can you take on any army, like all armies taking plasma previously to kill my blue dudes?

 

Also, say in a combat patrol, 400 points, where you must take one Troops and then just fill points with TWC, how would you do it? How could it be countered, if at all?

[Captain Idaho]

I would also be interested in this information, as I worry about how to deal with such a unit (even more cheesey than Ork Nobz).

 

I have Orbital Bombardment in my army, plus can unleash alot of combined firepower in my list, but the problem is the Space Wolves will be shooting back and if I put of shooting on just 7 models to weaken them sufficiently to have a chance of killing them later on then I won't be shooting at everything else!

[CainTheHunter]

I think You both are exaggerating the situation. TWC can be instakilled - but not by marines of course... I sort of wanted to propose peppering them with missiles, but then I remembered that devastators in Codex:SM are not competitive unit. I wonder why was Your shooting so poor that You only managed to cause single wound per turn. Maybe You did not focus on them enough or screwed Your deployment? I admit, however, that if the player will be using his razors/rhinos smartly to screen TWC, You won't get probably a shot until it's too late.

And I also have to admit that I don't field TWC currently - for reasons check my sig

[Captain Idaho]

I think You both are exaggerating the situation. TWC can be instakilled - but not by marines of course... I sort of wanted to propose peppering them with missiles, but then I remembered that devastators in Codex:SM are not competitive unit.

 

Made me chuckle! We aren't exagerating if we can't have a decent counter to them!

 

I do have 2 Typhoons which could put a few wounds on the unit through sheer firepower, but then they are kind of needed to take down other stuff and will be lucky to do more than a couple wounds in a single turn since the TWC get invulnerable saves of 3+...

 

I fancy luring them out with a charge against a cheap transport then shooting them with a few units and counter charging with Dreads and Honour Guard. Sure it's going to see their death, but if I can eliminate the TWC or reduce them significantly, I can take on the rest of the enemy army on an even keel. That's my plan, but will it work? Hopefully I can pull it off!

[Seahawk]

I exaggerate nothing. I literally lost a 1850 point game in ~45 minutes due to TWC and nothing else.

 

My first turn I fired two triple-las predators at them, a plasma cannon and gun, and rocket launcher, causing 8 wounds (but only one failed). The second turn I shot them with 30 tactical marines with various plasma and melta and he only failed one. Woopy, two wounds on two different models. My most effective way to kill them was run them over with rhinos (still, only got one; it was the power fist though).

 

I would've shot my las dreadnoughts and typhoon at them, but they were dead or shaken, due to his long fangs and razorbacks (which he kept in the back). I otherwise had nothing else to shoot with, because that was my army.

[Grimtooth]

I have actually dropped my other thunderlord from my list and only run one with fen wolves attached to a unit of fen wolves. After some debate regarding who can and who can't join TWM, I realized that by RAW, that you cannot have two TWM joined to the same unit per the TWM entry. TWM can only join TWC and/or fen wolves.

 

That being said, they are a doozy to deal with, but treat them like MC's. Shoot them and then shoot them some more. Repeat, rinse as needed.

[hendrik]

you do know you had to take out "only" 18 greyhunters and he would have no more scoring units? surely those TWC smash through a lot but you should try not to focus too much on them. a few simple tricks could stop them; the biggest and best beeing a shooty squad placed on a 2nd floor of a building;)

[Seahawk]

I would have, Brother Ramses and hendrik, but the table had no buildings, the deployment was Spearhead, and the objective was Kill Points that aren't Troops (ie, you only score KP for killing non-Troop units, of which he had 6 {lord, lord, TWC, priest, fangs, fangs}). Basically, a massive bucket of "I'm not allowed to get any break, at all" game haha.

 

Shoot them and then shoot them some more. Repeat, rinse as needed.

But when they have 3+ inv saves and all different equipment? Infinitely harder to deal with when you have no S10 weapons.

[CainTheHunter]

Shoot them and then shoot them some more. Repeat, rinse as needed.

But when they have 3+ inv saves and all different equipment? Infinitely harder to deal with when you have no S10 weapons.

 

Well, usually they have only one 3++ save, since most builds have barebone, melta bomb, thunder hammer, wolf claw/frost blade and storm shield accordingly. The rest is up to wound allocation shennanigans. As long as You force him to take a LOT of inv saves (plasma, lascannons, kraks, rending - whatever which has decent range and denies power armor) he is bound to start loosing wounds, as he cannot assign all these wounds to the single model with storm shield (unless he has them on every model, but then he has paid way too much points for them).

[Seahawk]

Yea, every model had a storm shield, including the lords (by the way, each had two dogs too, to take the first volley of lascannons). He was typically putting the wounds on the lords when he could first, only putting it on anyone else when no other choice. I'll find the list and post it tonight for your viewing pleasure.

[PKAwolf]

I lose my TWC to torrent of fire every time. just force them to take as many saves as possible.

but more importantly...

please review this thread and tell us what TWC models were most represented

tell us which one of the bad wolves touched you

this is very important

[Grimtooth]

I look at the mess that can be made of terminators. They have a 2+ save and massed bolter fire always pops up some rolls of 1. I see the same against TWC, even with two wounds, you are going to start causing rolls of 2.

[JamesI]

I have yet to face a Thunder wolf. Probably due to the expense of the models as there are quite a few space wolf players locally.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I exaggerate nothing. I literally lost a 1850 point game in ~45 minutes due to TWC and nothing else.

 

My first turn I fired two triple-las predators at them, a plasma cannon and gun, and rocket launcher, causing 8 wounds (but only one failed). The second turn I shot them with 30 tactical marines with various plasma and melta and he only failed one. Woopy, two wounds on two different models. My most effective way to kill them was run them over with rhinos (still, only got one; it was the power fist though).

 

I would've shot my las dreadnoughts and typhoon at them, but they were dead or shaken, due to his long fangs and razorbacks (which he kept in the back). I otherwise had nothing else to shoot with, because that was my army.

 

Lucky rolling is lucky rolling. You can't really mitigate against that.

 

t5 sv 3+

hit 4/6 wound 2/6 fail save 2/6 = 16/216 or 7.4%

t4 sv 2+

4/6 3/6 1/6 = 12/216 or 5.5%

 

WA will stop you running through them, but still, if you can account for Terms, you can account for TWC. Plus you ap3 weapons actually do something and need to be allocated against a SS instead of bouncing of Term armour.

 

Don't use 3 las Preds. The cost for it over the Auto cannon is higher than it's increased effect.

Don't bring more than 2 squads of Tacs. They are not amazing. They are okay. Have one with LC for your home objective, with a lasplas Razor, and the other with MM in a Rhino, to roll into the midfield.

 

We need to see your list.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hammernators.

Sternguard with gets hot! ammo

Nearby Null zoning Librarians

[Godhead]

a 3+ invuln is not different than a 3+ reg save when its not ap2 or 3. Torrent of fire is the one thing that reliably kills them. It can be in the form of lots and lots of melee attacks (orks and nids) or lots and lots of shots (sm, eldar, tau, guard).

[Khavos]

I personally think that stating, "Your Space Marines are riding giant wolves into battle," should be treated as a S10 AP1 shooting attack on every Thunderwolf Cavalry in the unit, but until then, I'd hit them with tricked-out BA Vanguard Veterans or just tarpit them with a durable counter-assault unit. If every one of 'em has a Storm Shield, that's a ton of points invested. Tarpit and ignore.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Wouldn't the time you folks are spending complaining about Space Wolves be better spent on figuring out ways to take on the nastier lists that are out there?

 

Toughness 5 2 wounds. First thing that springs to mind here is heavy bolters and other rapid fire weapons hammering them. Thunderfire cannons with the ground quake ammo, vindicators with s10 or just good old massed fire with bolters. Roll enough dice and you will kill them.

[JMac]

a 3+ invuln is not different than a 3+ reg save when its not ap2 or 3. Torrent of fire is the one thing that reliably kills them. It can be in the form of lots and lots of melee attacks (orks and nids) or lots and lots of shots (sm, eldar, tau, guard).

 

Hammer has hit the nail! This is it here, if they have SS, get your tactical marines within rapid fire range and unleash. The more wounds rolled, the more saves taken, the more wounds. Focus your heavy weapons on what they are meant for and use your tiny guns to kill them. I lost my TWC to a guard army when he gave the "First Rank, Second Rank" order and gave me 7 wounds to pass. Stupid flash lights killed my 80 pt TWC with SS that gave no extra protection. Just goes to show you, that piling up wounds can be devastating to any unit.

[hmk17]

Full Storm shields is rough. Two words come to mind if you are playing as smurfs or a C:SM chapter and you know what is coming... just stay out of range of any Rune Priest.

 

 

As a wolf, the main way to drop them is to focus fire on the unit and force saves. They HAVE to take their best save and if its an invuln... well, the point is made if they roll low. I've really come to appreciate Vindicators since people want to spam that.

 

 

Don't worry though. Those same guys will be Lance spamming you in a month and you will have completely new problems

[Ven.Dread Greatclaw]

Remember that 5 TW with all Shields and 2 lords are ATLEAST 850 - 900 pts. Probably even more!!!

You can get a lot of massed shooting for those points.

[Prot]

Sorry I didn't read through the whole thread. As soon as I read your dilemma I thought I'd throw this out there:

 

Get on the second floor of any building. The TWC are in for a tough game if you do.... He'll have to rely on the rest of his army. Otherwise, go mechanised....

 

I'm afraid you will see this from Wolves players as this is what the current run of codices has left us with. Wait til DE come out, it will be a whole new ball of fun.

[Seahawk]

This is it here, if they have SS, get your tactical marines within rapid fire range and unleash. The more wounds rolled, the more saves taken, the more wounds.

I did. 30 marines. One wound caused from each, easily saved.

 

Get on the second floor of any building. The TWC are in for a tough game if you do.... He'll have to rely on the rest of his army. Otherwise, go mechanised....

Couldn't (no buildings) and did (all mech). Like I said, not a single break for that game.

 

Hammernators.

Sternguard with gets hot! ammo

Nearby Null zoning Librarians

Hate the first, didn't bring the last two because the local scene (previously) was all mech marines. Bolters and null zone did squat there...unfortunately everybody brought SW this time, of course :( D'oh!

 

Don't use 3 las Preds. The cost for it over the Auto cannon is higher than it's increased effect.

Don't bring more than 2 squads of Tacs. They are not amazing. They are okay. Have one with LC for your home objective, with a lasplas Razor, and the other with MM in a Rhino, to roll into the midfield.

Metagame says three las is better than autocannon, especially against AV13-14, which I faced all day (except the wolf, obviously). I know tacs aren't amazing, it's what I tell people too! heh. But they were highly valuable in every other game; two squads wouldn't have cut it. I'd never use las or mm in my tacs either...don't actually work.

 

As for which models were used, they were the first ones on the list I think, Mr. Dandy's. Very nice models when painted.

 

Here's his whole list (I was wrong on a couple parts):

 

Lord - TWM, hammer, shield, runic armor, 2 wolves, saga of bear (280)

Lord - TWM, wolf claw, shield, runic armor, 2 wolves, saga of majesty, wolf tail (255)

Rune Priest - jaws, tempests wrath (100)

3 Wolf Guard - 3 combi-meltas, fist (89)

5 Scouts - meltagun (85)

5 GH - meltagun, razorback w/lasplas (155)

5 GH - meltagun, razorback w/lasplas (155)

5 GH - flamer, wolf standard, razorback w/lasplas (160)

5 TWC - 1 fist, 1 bp/ccw, 1 bolter, 1 storm shield, 1 storm shield meltabomb (340)

5 Long Fangs - 4 rockets (115)

5 Long Fangs - 4 rockets (115)

 

Please tell me his points were right...

[Anpu42]

All I can say is he rolled good saves.

For every 6 saves he shold have failed 2.

30 wounds vs 3+/3++ should have netted 10 wounds by MathHammer.

 

No Tactic/Weapon/Sepical Rule will help when that happens, only Loaded Dice :rolleyes:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yippee!

 

Hammernators.

Sternguard with gets hot! ammo

Nearby Null zoning Librarians

Hate the first, didn't bring the last two because the local scene (previously) was all mech marines. Bolters and null zone did squat there...unfortunately everybody brought SW this time, of course :D D'oh!

 

Don't use 3 las Preds. The cost for it over the Auto cannon is higher than it's increased effect.

Don't bring more than 2 squads of Tacs. They are not amazing. They are okay. Have one with LC for your home objective, with a lasplas Razor, and the other with MM in a Rhino, to roll into the midfield.

Metagame says three las is better than autocannon, especially against AV13-14, which I faced all day (except the wolf, obviously). I know tacs aren't amazing, it's what I tell people too! heh. But they were highly valuable in every other game; two squads wouldn't have cut it. I'd never use las or mm in my tacs either...don't actually work.

 

"Tired of the same old you? Tired of being out of shape and out of luck with the opposite sex? Tired of being overweight and under-attractive?

 

Seahawk, let's turn that list you look at each morning from a Frankenstein into a Franken-fine.

 

Of course you'll still be your list in a legal sense, but think of it as a thinner, more attractive, better list than you could ever make without us. :D

 

If you want to be a tournament contender and not a pretender, you'll have to deal with your prejudices, bro ;) .

Hammernators work against Foot and Mech.

 

Those Meched Marines will be coming out of their cans eventually, and then you can clean up with the Sternguard.

Twin Las cannons + Rhino for backfield duties.

2 MM + Rhino for midfield duties.

2 HF + Rhino for anti-infantry duties.

Combi-meltas if you want to keep the super-bolters in action and pop Mech as well.

Link: 3++ on Sternguard

 

You said that Auto cannon doesn't help as much as tlLC, yet you say LC and MM Tacs don't work.

Those two Tac bunkers are adding exactly what the Pred's turret is.

 

You must take two TROOPS [and you choose Tacs] so you want them to contribute both in AI and AT shooting. Bolters do a solid job against grunts.

LC and MM are the best two AT weapons in the Imperial armoury, only matched by cheap, cheap , cheap ML, which you don't get.

Please share how they do not work?

I have been using 5 man Las+Flamer squads in my Templars in many games. They do well and when I meched up, I just swapped one out for a LasBack. You get to use the superior lasplasBack.

I haven't used MM bunkers yet, but Messanger of Death and Marshal Laeroth both tell me they are golden. They are from the same group of guys/thinking that got me onto Razors in the first place. Razors worked, I am happy to believe Bunkers work too.

You can give the bunker any SW you like.

Pg coincides with the MMs ranges and strengths. Mg gives you mobility whilst reinforcing the MM thinking. Flamer covers the MMs weakness.

The MM scares tanks away and the flamers scares men away ~ even better than fighting them!

Link: 3++ on TROOPS

 

Las cannons are not great against AV 13-14

They 'can' but it doesn't mean they should. MM are for that kind of heavy lifting.

So whilst paying x pts more to change the Tacs ML [which I think is a I'll be okay at everything so not actually good at anything gun that should be avoided unless you get them like Fangs or Blood Devs do] is a cheap upgrade and should be taken,

the x pts you pay to change the reasonable AC [which works well against AV 10-12] to a tl LC is just way too much.

The sponson LCs work against the ACs target AV 10-12 and then can be used against higher AVs when the weaker stuff is gone, or used against elite MEq units.

 

T1+2 you should be shooting at transports with your Preds. Make his grunts move+run to get somewhere. This gives your non-AT stuff something to shoot at. Don't worry about his Land Raider or Leman Russ BT.

LCs have a 3.7% chance to destroy AV 14 and 7.2% chance to destroy AV 13. It is weak and is only a "I don't have anything else to shoot at" option.

 

Spend the points you did on that 3rd Tac squad on something that is killy. That killiness will draw heat away from your Tacs [meaning they'll last] and the killiness they bring should outdo what the Tacs can bring.

 

Meched Tacs = 205+

tl LC = 90

 

Librarian + 5 Hammernators = 300 pts

Librarian + Rhino + 5 Stern guard + 2 HF + 3 combi-Mg = 295 pts

Librarian + 3 Speeders w/ MM + HF = 310

3 Speeders w/ Typhoon ML = 270

 

I think those are all better options.

 

Have you shown us your list yet?