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Seahawk

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How many people around here hit the tournament scene these days? I recently went to one where, out of 20 players, 9 were Space Wolves with TWC. I unfortunately got my second game against the nastiest list there too; 1850 points and something like 2x rocket long fangs, 3x 6 Grey Hunters, 3x razorback w/las/plas, runepriest, 2 lords on TW and 5 TWC with stormshields and different equipment on each like nob bikers. Infinitely better of course.

.......

 

For you tournament goers, how many SW players do you see now? Is the only way to deal with TWC in a single turn (as that's all you get) a triple-vindicator?

 

Are SW the new SM in terms of meta-gaming? As in, if you can deal with TWC, can you take on any army, like all armies taking plasma previously to kill my blue dudes?

 

Also, say in a combat patrol, 400 points, where you must take one Troops and then just fill points with TWC, how would you do it? How could it be countered, if at all?

Wow.

 

I cant imagine that. The most SW players Ive seen in one room, who currently had their armies on them or had used them in the last month, is three. The most at a single tournament? Two.

 

Frankly, I think rhino walls are one of the best weapons a C:SM player has against TWC, not Vindicators- though vindicators arent bad :P. Why? Because once they hit the vehicle, you dump out and rapid fire the ever living crap out of them. Sure, you wound on fives... but its just like IG to SMs- they cost three times what you do, each. You can take them out with weight of fire, as with some many TWC on the field their points to bring other things is going to be reduced.

 

Each of those TWLs costs about 250pts once equipment is factored in- wich is the base price of the squad of TWC before you add in any options, they likely hit 325, 350pts. Lets call 300 the conservative estimate- one SS, no SCCW. Thats 800 points he put into seven models with 11 wounds.

 

Bolter... gotta love bolters. So, Lets say you have ML and Plasma in the squad, its not uncommon and its versatile. With so many attacks hell probly explode your rhino- and kill one. Two other squads nearby might be if theyr close enough for multicharges, so lets say of 30 tacs you have 27 left, and one of your MLs is dead.

 

3 PGs, 2 MLs, and 44 rapid firing bolter shots gets us- Six wounds on average. Assuming he wants to save his TWLs more than his TWC, youve probly wounded one of them and kill the entire unit- seperating his lords. The other 800pts of your army should be able to take out the two wounds left on the wounded lord, while your other units keep the rest of him at bay.

 

Now of course, he can dump more points into this unit, but the more he does the less he has elsewhere- and the minimum points for what you listed him having, no more than basic options, is 825pts. They need gear to be functional, though I suppose he could skimp on them and hope for a wipe out..... but hed be more the fool for it.

 

At 1850 I can get 9 effective DPs and 2 or 3 small support units, like typhoons. When it comes to alpha strike capacity this TWC has nothing on it. And what hes going to do when a Tyranid player gets ahold of him, or a good mechanized IG list.

 

Wich is to answer your question- SWs arent the unbeatable gods of the 40k universe unless Decoy plays them ;). They have alot of issues with 'toys' like the new BA book, uber units that can be countered with basic troopers deployed in mass who will have that mass simply because of all the points you took in them.

 

The way I showed above is one way to beat them, reliably devastating them in a single turn. Other good options include Sterngaurd with Vengeance Rounds, particularly scoring DPing ones, Rail Cannons, Thousand Sons, Iron Clad Dreads, Telion, Librarians with large blast templates, Triple Vindicators *who are less than half the price*, Pinning weapons *less so with the lords in there*, and not the least of wich is dangerous terrain. ... Or just about any Non-mechanized Eldar List. *Yeah, Id like to see them stand up to 30 twin linked Reaper shots, or take down a fortuned seers council*.

 

If I still loved in southern Michigan Id come down there and show those boys how its done, but these days youd have to buy my ticket :).

 

Edit: looking through the rest of your thread, and seeing this:

 

I would have, Brother Ramses and hendrik, but the table had no buildings, the deployment was Spearhead, and the objective was Kill Points that aren't Troops (ie, you only score KP for killing non-Troop units, of which he had 6 {lord, lord, TWC, priest, fangs, fangs}). Basically, a massive bucket of "I'm not allowed to get any break, at all" game haha.

 

Shoot them and then shoot them some more. Repeat, rinse as needed.
But when they have 3+ inv saves and all different equipment? Infinitely harder to deal with when you have no S10 weapons.

All I can say is you were screwed by scenario as much as be army. Sometimes the vagaries of fate just gangs up on a guy, and no matter how smart he is, or how well crafted his army, it just wont matter. Bad scenario for the matchup, list your not particularly designed against, and he had good armor saves....

 

Everyone dies in that kind of fight.

@ Marshal Wilhelm: I can use practically anything in the SM book, barring the TFC and non-Ultra SC (I just don't have them...yet). I know I don't play 100% optimized lists, as I don't like it. I try to underdog my way through and it usually works, heh. Thanks for the links though...something to think about for sure.

Bolter... gotta love bolters. So, Lets say you have ML and Plasma in the squad, its not uncommon and its versatile. With so many attacks hell probly explode your rhino- and kill one. Two other squads nearby might be if theyr close enough for multicharges, so lets say of 30 tacs you have 27 left, and one of your MLs is dead.

 

3 PGs, 2 MLs, and 44 rapid firing bolter shots gets us- Six wounds on average. Assuming he wants to save his TWLs more than his TWC, youve probly wounded one of them and kill the entire unit- seperating his lords. The other 800pts of your army should be able to take out the two wounds left on the wounded lord, while your other units keep the rest of him at bay.

 

Now of course, he can dump more points into this unit, but the more he does the less he has elsewhere- and the minimum points for what you listed him having, no more than basic options, is 825pts. They need gear to be functional, though I suppose he could skimp on them and hope for a wipe out..... but hed be more the fool for it.

 

At 1850 I can get 9 effective DPs and 2 or 3 small support units, like typhoons. When it comes to alpha strike capacity this TWC has nothing on it. And what hes going to do when a Tyranid player gets ahold of him, or a good mechanized IG list.

 

Wich is to answer your question- SWs arent the unbeatable gods of the 40k universe unless Decoy plays them ;). They have alot of issues with 'toys' like the new BA book, uber units that can be countered with basic troopers deployed in mass who will have that mass simply because of all the points you took in them.

 

The way I showed above is one way to beat them, reliably devastating them in a single turn. Other good options include Sterngaurd with Vengeance Rounds, particularly scoring DPing ones, Rail Cannons, Thousand Sons, Iron Clad Dreads, Telion, Librarians with large blast templates, Triple Vindicators *who are less than half the price*, Pinning weapons *less so with the lords in there*, and not the least of wich is dangerous terrain. ... Or just about any Non-mechanized Eldar List. *Yeah, Id like to see them stand up to 30 twin linked Reaper shots, or take down a fortuned seers council*.

 

 

 

@Grey Mage, I agree with the options you suggested as viable means of dealing with a TWC death star, but I kind of feel as if you are a bit too dismissive of the how hard it can truly be to take those guys out. I would really really REALLY be surprised to see it go down in one round of shooting EVER. I run a similar unit (I love my good old hero hammer :cuss ) and I face all of those lists on pretty regular basis. In fact my TWC death star ate 3 units of 1k sons, a daemon prince, and a summoned greater daemon just last night. I lost 4 fen wolves from my unit.

 

Another thing is typically it's not 7 models, it's 11 models. The two (four) fen wolves are invaluable for getting your TWC across the field intact.

 

Las/Plas and the LF's will bust open rhinos, so that the TWC can charge the soft underbelly. I only charge vehicles with my TWC as a last resort or unless it's part of a multi-charge.. which in turn protects them from the rapid firing.

 

TWC are not invincible by any means, but they do take a considerable investment to take them out. I am sure that my army would be just as effective with more GH's of the same point values.

 

P.S. I suck at quoting

@ Marshal Wilhelm: I can use practically anything in the SM book, barring the TFC and non-Ultra SC (I just don't have them...yet). I know I don't play 100% optimized lists, as I don't like it. I try to underdog my way through and it usually works, heh. Thanks for the links though...something to think about for sure.

 

When I first started internetting for 40K, I visited BoLS and stumbled upon YTTH, Jawaballs, B&C and ATT.

YTTH was way too rough for me, and I left it.

ATT amazed me with its diagrams and so on.

 

Around that time I joined here. BoLS, Jawa and B&C lifted my gaming a lot. I mostly played against myself you see.

After a while BoLS and Jawa had taught me what they could.

B&C continued giving me goodies, but at a reducing rate.

 

Messenger of Death kept talking about Stelek as did Big Dunc and Brother Loring. I guess we ship based Marines get around. Anyway, I'd been back there a few times of my own volition, but with my fellow Knights advocating him, I decided to give Stelek another go.

 

I'd kind of accepted the fact that Stelek is Stelek and just because he played rough, didn't mean he couldn't teach me things. I'd experienced a similar thing at work and had learnt good things from rough people.

 

Stelek has changed how I play the most, especially with my Tau. This dude Kirby kept popping in to YTTH. Messenger started including Kirby's advice alongside Stelek's whenever we had greenhorns on The Eternal Crusader. So I checked it out. Many of the usual suspects were there from YTTH so it felt very similar.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that Stelek is not there and the roughness is very low.

 

I go to both of them now, skimming the bits that cannot be applied to me. I enjoy Stelek and he is doing great things for competitive gaming. I think his great message gets tarnished by his attitude and language used. I have shared that with him a few times, but I cannot expect him to change because of that.

Stelek is right a lot of the time. The problem is dudes don't often like being told they are wrong. When you add to that the way he tells them they are wrong, well, Flame On! ensues. :lol:

 

I chose to not let my ego deprive me of winning on the TT. By not being reactive or emotional or not telling Stelek "this is the way it is", he's never really been rude to me. Others have and he cuts them down. *shrugs shoulders*

 

Sometimes you go to a smoking venue to hear a great band, so to speak.

Too many TWC models and then you run out of room on the table top and you get in your own way. You also end up depriving yourself of cover saves which is invaluable in aiding your 1st two turn trek across the field. The ICs can get a 2+ reg save.

 

Another thing is your IC's actually protect your TWC. Almost everyone dumps attacks at the big scary and expensive IC on TWM, leaving your TWC to surprise them with rending and a face full of hidden thunderhammer love.

 

If you choose to not equip your IC with a TH, then the I5 is a big boon to the unit as well. These little things add up and (IMO) absolutely prove their worth because these are things the TWC can't typically do for themselves.

I chose to not let my ego deprive me of winning on the TT. By not being reactive or emotional or not telling Stelek "this is the way it is", he's never really been rude to me. Others have and he cuts them down. *shrugs shoulders*

I have one issue with stelek- hes rude. Beyond reasonable brusque.

 

Im glad he isnt that way to everyone, but when he comes by asking for some advice he shouldnt get up in arms over whats given to him as if it were a personal affront. After all, if he knew all the angles why ask anyways?

 

No, I know how some of you guys love your Mathhammer, and its a decent guideline- but thats all it is, a guideline. There are so many variables that Ill take a shambled pile of empirical evidence over some *often badly done* statistics any day of the week.

 

And that, for whatever reason, made him decide to 'yell' at me. Until I start having some good experiences with the man, I got nothing more to say. I hope some people are getting things off his website, because about half his articles are sheer nonsense to me- like the one he did on phoenix lords.

@ Marshal Wilhelm: I can use practically anything in the SM book, barring the TFC and non-Ultra SC (I just don't have them...yet). I know I don't play 100% optimized lists, as I don't like it. I try to underdog my way through and it usually works, heh. Thanks for the links though...something to think about for sure.

 

When your going to a tourney, the mental baggage about optimalisation is best left at the door. I've had that once in other hobbies, yet once I shed it not only did I find I enjoyed it more (I was able to fluidly react to my oppoment in Yu-Gi-Oh due to including more flexable choices in a strong deck.) but I was actually able to start winning, since going competive in Yu-Gi-Oh by trying everything at least once and using the best tools for the job, I have won two tourneys and having the time of my life. Just try optimalising one time for a tourney as an experiment and get the feel for it and maybe you will like it like I did.

 

After all, by the sounds of things, the foe is giving you no quarter and you are not enjoying it because you can't react. No tourneys are ever friendly as people will always use the best tools for the right job within the chosen enviroment. The advice will help you. Marshal is spot on with his sources, I visit Kirbys website a fair bit and it's been a real eye opener (almost made me want to go blue! Almost...), though I don't have much experience with Skelek aside from the common referance to his raging. XD It's a pity, he does have gems, but he often makes himself look like a complete buffoon at times.

 

There is actually a new marine review on this site which tells you a lot about what makes marines great, and the sort of guys you should leave be.

When your going to a tourney, the mental baggage about optimalisation is best left at the door.

 

After all, by the sounds of things, the foe is giving you no quarter and you are not enjoying it because you can't react. No tourneys are ever friendly as people will always use the best tools for the right job within the chosen enviroment. The advice will help you.

There is actually a new marine review on this site which tells you a lot about what makes marines great, and the sort of guys you should leave be.

 

I agree.

If you want casual games, don't go to tournaments. You'll meet other guys who want a serious game and they'll show no mercy.

 

If you are going to the trouble of going to a tournament, you need to change your gaming paradigm [at least for those games]. I like/I want are casual games thinking. I need/this works is serious games thinking.

I find that once something starts performing well for you, even if you thought it was daft before, you start to love it.

 

In my games against my self -_- I didn't use transports and I did use Assault Marines. I had this ideal of all these Marines taking heads, and Jumpers were great cause they could get there at double time.

With my interneting, I started to see that Rhinos and those despised Razors [i always preferred the Chimera and thought Marines should have got it & the first Razors were half bright red + Chapter colours, which I still think is not attractive, so I didn't like them] were a good thing. After using them with prejudices gone, I really like them.

 

I don't use Jumpers, as they get shoot up easily and are no killier than Crusaders.

 

I didn't like Tacs and that narrowed my options to SW, BT and BA.

I didn't like Blood Claw Jumpers as they were too expensive. That got rid of SW.

 

Now, after a year of proper playing, I don't like Jumpers [though they do work for BA] and I like Tacs.

 

So my palette excluded UM, DA [though Stubborn Tacs are a bit blergh still] and SW. Now all of these would be viable, as my palette has 'matured', so to speak.

 

Templars have one of the most ferocious charging unit in the game. Furious charging Preferred enemy Assault Terms with PoLC. 20 attacks kills 13.3 MEq on the charge. Brilliant.

But I'd love to give 3++ Hammernators a whirl [especially with Preferred enemy :P ].

Why don't you use them?

Aye, the stormsheilds are useful against real tough combat units, like thunder wolf, Demons, Avater, and pretty much can cleeve through any squad that is not a combat specialists. Though the stormsheild defines its' role as the rock to bash against other rocks since thats where the storm shield works. Thunder Wolves would most probably lose to a hammernator unit, though it would be a fight to watch.

 

Not sure how much they cost in the templar codex though, all I know is that Space Wolves have them so expensive that they are not worth running, 63 each compared to 40 in Space Marines. Wolf Guard are really expensive to make as a combat unit, they really pay for that flexability they may or may not use.

 

Hammernators though, are awesome. They are resistant to all attacks in melee and at range and can wound anything, making them an ideal counter attack unit, or to use in a land raider. I don't think even Thunder Wolves would struggle to clearly win toe to toe, the only problem is getting them there. Which is limited to Land Raider, Gateway Labieran or Footslogging in order to put him off getting up close, which is price you pay. Whether you can get them to do their job or get bogged down.

Aye, the stormsheilds are useful against real tough combat units, like thunder wolf, Demons, Avater, and pretty much can cleeve through any squad that is not a combat specialists. Though the stormsheild defines its' role as the rock to bash against other rocks since thats where the storm shield works. Thunder Wolves would most probably lose to a hammernator unit, though it would be a fight to watch.

 

No way! If numbers are equal, the Thunderwolves have so many more attacks and twice as many wounds as the Terminators that they will smash them to pieces, with or without a 3+ invulnerable.

 

Terminators with Thunder hammers and Storm shields are great for removing hard targets but their weakness is facing off against quantity. Thunder Wolves have alot of attacks, we are talking like 20+ depending on equipment and charging and they are striking before the Terminators with alot of them, with some decent weapons thrown into the mix. Crucially, they will have some invulnerables themselves and will have to be wounded twice, so essentially have numbers on their side too.

 

Of course, Thunderwolves are expensive, so there is game balance here.

 

I would counter attack the Thunderwolves when you have killed a few first with shooting, to even the odds into your favour.

 

Someone mentioned earlier I think how I would prefer to deal with Thunderwolves (as of yet untested). I would use a Rhino wall, similar to how I would face Daemons. Trying to force the Thunderwolves to commit to destroying a transport before they engage my units in assault.

 

Difficult though, seeing how many Long Fangs people are packing now-a-days (pun intended).

Aye, the stormsheilds are useful against real tough combat units, like thunder wolf, Demons, Avater, and pretty much can cleeve through any squad that is not a combat specialists. Though the stormsheild defines its' role as the rock to bash against other rocks since thats where the storm shield works. Thunder Wolves would most probably lose to a hammernator unit, though it would be a fight to watch.

 

No way! If numbers are equal, the Thunderwolves have so many more attacks and twice as many wounds as the Terminators that they will smash them to pieces, with or without a 3+ invulnerable.

 

Terminators with Thunder hammers and Storm shields are great for removing hard targets but their weakness is facing off against quantity. Thunder Wolves have alot of attacks, we are talking like 20+ depending on equipment and charging and they are striking before the Terminators with alot of them, with some decent weapons thrown into the mix. Crucially, they will have some invulnerables themselves and will have to be wounded twice, so essentially have numbers on their side too.

 

Of course, Thunderwolves are expensive, so there is game balance here.

 

I would counter attack the Thunderwolves when you have killed a few first with shooting, to even the odds into your favour.

 

Someone mentioned earlier I think how I would prefer to deal with Thunderwolves (as of yet untested). I would use a Rhino wall, similar to how I would face Daemons. Trying to force the Thunderwolves to commit to destroying a transport before they engage my units in assault.

 

Difficult though, seeing how many Long Fangs people are packing now-a-days (pun intended)

The have the same amount of wounds and the same number of attacks, considering 5 man pack is equal to 10 wounds, 13 if the thunder wolf is in there. But yeah, point taken. They are probably more economical, aside from the fact they can't take a special weapon with everything. A thunder wolf with hammer and stormsheild is roughly equilent to almost three hammers in cost and number of attacks to 2 hammer termies. Your typical thunder wolf, just with storm sheild, costs the equilent of 2 Hammers while lacking a power weapon, though the extra attack on charge will factor in.

 

Just coming to think of it, the timing would have to be spot on for a clear win.

 

Just chances are though, your not going to have much shooting time, so something will need to be between your shooting stuff and the mega wolves of death. Rhino idea sounds pretty solid, though as you said, the missle volleys are hard to play against

A hammenator squad shouldn't win against TWC. They don't put out enough attacks.

 

Pick something that puts out an inordinate amount of attacks and point it at these guys. If you don't have a single unit that does this, then do 2 or 3 more. Just imagine TWC as the super badass hero fighting off a swarm of zombies. Eventually you see the hero drug down and swarmed over either to never be seen again, or reanimated shuffling along eating the brains of former companions.

 

Orks do this by using large squads of boyz with a few power klaws sprinkled in for good measure. Guard can put out alot of auto cannons or template weapons, or just their flashlights with 1st rank/2nd rank fire orders. BA do it with DC, talon dreads, and assault marines with FC. Personally with a vanilla list, I'd probably hit them with some templates, massed bolter fire, and a squad of sternguard with special ammo to top it off.

 

Whenever I fight a Unit of Death, I always try to send "that units cost"+ in a bid to get rid of them as soon as possible. Besides being killer, those units are usually hard to kill and so need to be saturated with shooting etc. so the UoD cannot rush into mêlée a avoid your attacks.

 

5 TWC + Thunder hammer + 2 Storm shields plus Melta-bombs & Plasma pistol for Unique = 360 pts.

 

That gives you 9 Hammernators! But we'll just use 200 pts worth.

 

TWC charge. 4 x 6 = 24 attacks

12 hit. 8 wound. Lets be generous and say 2 rend.

6 normal saves = 1 dead Term

2 rends = 0 dead.

 

5 TH attacks. 2.5 hit. 2.1 wound. 2 dead Terms [balancing out the other ones, sort of]

 

4 Hammernators. 12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wound. 1 wound on 3 guys. No wounds on SS guys.

 

3 wounds versus 3 wounds.

No dead TWC, 3 dead Hammernators. The Terms are ruined. 360 pts hardly beat 200 pts.

 

5 Hammernators charge TWC.

4 x 5 attacks = 20, 10 hit, 6 wound, 2 rend.

6 normal saves = 1 dead Term

2 rends = 0 dead.

 

4 TH attacks. 2 hit. 1.7 wound. 2 dead Terms [balancing out the other ones, sort of]

 

4 charging Hammernators. 16 attacks, 8 hit, 6.7 wound. 1 wound on 3 guys. 1 wound on 1 SS guy.

 

3 dead Terms versus 4 TWC wounds. TWC lose. Ld 7 test. 21/36 test or 58.3%

 

Hardly an impressive showing by the much vaunted TWC. :ermm:

 

If you have more Terms, even if he charges you, the Ultras should win. He should flee if he loses by 2 wounds. Your whole army drills them with shooting.

 

Ultras get beaten in the Wolves turn? Combat tactics to try to escape. Equal initiative means 15/36 or 41.7% to get away successfully. One or two saves against 2+ should be fine..... :)

 

If you get off Nullzone and/or Sternguard shooting, etc, the TWC are toast.

 

The real issue with them is that they Assault from 19-24" out. A LRC can return the favour with a 21.5" Assault with Terms. And you get to PotMS them with tlAC. Even if you cause one wound with that, you have ruined his WA potential and TWC will start dying in the 1st round of combat. The rest of your shooting doesn't even need to be gunning down TWC, just taking a couple of wounds off them.

 

Dakka Pred. 6 HB shots. 2 AC shots.

4 hit. 1.32 hit.

2 wound. 1.1 wound. 3.1 saves should give you 1 wound.

 

Tac squad. 20 Bolter shots. 13.3 hit. 4.4 wound. 1.5 wounds -> Sternguard = 2 SS saves and 2.4 wounds. with Nullzone = 4.4 wounds.

 

Blaze away at him with every one, load up his guys with wounds, then Nullzone + Sternguard + Hammernator him into the grave.

If someone would be kind enough to workout the points of that TWC unit? Because Storm Shield on each just seems like this guy wants a Deathstar and a couple of TIE Fighters behind it :cuss

 

Seriously, if they are that costly.... just put up a decent shield against them. Lysander leading a load of SS Termies seems like my favourite when I played 'Nilla.

I've found TWC work best in units of 3 as a finisher. So my GH don't have to charge stuff to take it out of games. Meaning I always have bolters around to shoot stuff, and I'm not worried about getting bogged down in protracted assaults. 3 with 1 thunder hammer, 2 storm shields, and a single meltabomb are 245 points.

 

As LR are the first target of every SM army I face (or vindicators) as I want whatever is in side to be walking. If i kill it turn 1 thats two turns of shooting into the Hammernators, With a dedicated anit-elite shooter (10 GH 2 plasma, double SB Rhino)and then I can charge them with the TWC.

 

Also Marshal Wilhelm you forgot counter attack.

A Grey Hunter Pack with 2 Plasma Guns, MotW, Power Fist/Weapon and a Wolf Standard can put a real hurt on them. If you can get them at 12" you can put "4" [7 With Combi-Plasma and Plasma Pistol] wound on a 2+ Shots that if they don't Have "4" Storm Shield are garented Wounds.

If you see they are coming att you Pop the Wolf Standard in Your Assualt Phase and when they get to you you are re-rolling "1s".

Also Marshal Wilhelm you forgot counter attack.

 

You can just use their attacks when assaulting :)

 

Whilst it is not as neat as I'd usually do it, the mathhammer shows that the TWC are not the pwners of Hammernators.

Cosidering the TWC were 360 pts versus 200 pts of Terms, the TWC didn't manage any great success in "the battle"

 

The TWC win "the war" by virtue of being able to absorb wounds.

 

TWC are a solid assault unit, whose main strength is wound absorbtion and assault reach. They are not super-killy.

 

That is what I am trying to show ;)

 

They do well against lightly armoured units, as they have few Power weapon attacks [rending is not reliable] and

they do well against AV.

Their long assault range means they can catch and beat down other non-dedicated Assault units and finish them off quickly.

 

As with many units, used your Rock unit to crush his Scissor units, and don't just bash your Rock against his Rock.

TWC are a solid assault unit, whose main strength is wound absorbtion and assault reach. They are not super-killy.

 

Actually, I would argue that they're currently quite possibly the best assault unit in the game. They're not super-killy, no, but they're killy enough.

@Marshal Wilhelm

 

Looking at your math hammer, I don't believe your math hammer is truly representative of a real table top situation. In your example you go through one round of combat and stop. What about the next players turn of combat? In each situation (charging/recieving a charge) your hammenators take actual losses where as the TWC take wounds, but they still have a full squad to attack with. The second round of combat should see the hammenators with what, 2 models left? 4 attacks back? That's not even running the numbers for the TWC attacks 1st. Just one wound on the termies leaves a lone model left to attack back against the still full TWC squad?

 

In your second example with the TWC receiving the charge, they may or may not break after the fact, but in either case your hammenators are still down to 2 guys.

 

Also to split hairs, who really buys a plasma pistol for a squad that runs 95% of the time (arbitrary % picked out of my a$$) :D.

@Marshal Wilhelm

 

Looking at your math hammer, I don't believe your math hammer is truly representative of a real table top situation. In your example you go through one round of combat and stop. What about the next players turn of combat? In each situation (charging/recieving a charge) your hammenators take actual losses where as the TWC take wounds, but they still have a full squad to attack with. The second round of combat should see the hammenators with what, 2 models left? 4 attacks back? That's not even running the numbers for the TWC attacks 1st. Just one wound on the termies leaves a lone model left to attack back against the still full TWC squad?

 

In your second example with the TWC receiving the charge, they may or may not break after the fact, but in either case your hammenators are still down to 2 guys.

 

Also to split hairs, who really buys a plasma pistol for a squad that runs 95% of the time (arbitrary % picked out of my a$$) :D.

 

As said, that was 200 Hammernators vs nearly twice it's points in Thunder Wolf. Sounds respectable for a outmatched unit that can then try and escape and have addtional fire poured onto the thunderwolf. This means that the Thunder Hammer can be deployed to further soften units up, or to act as bubble wrap to blow passage to your more senstive shooty stuff, from there if they escape by battle tactics a second round of fire can be poured onto the remmence of the units, which most probably damage will be dealt via a concentrated burst, either destorying them or at least weakening them to the extent that their ability to damage the unit is hindered.

 

Thats why I would not like to run a single pack of thunder wolves, for all their speed, they are not exactly hard to predict. Two Thunder wolf pack meanwhile is harder to blow, since rather then one unit, the defender would have to give up 2 to stop them getting to the sensitve shooters. Plus more strength 10 hammer/fist.

TWC are a solid assault unit, whose main strength is wound absorbtion and assault reach. They are not super-killy.

 

Actually, I would argue that they're currently quite possibly the best assault unit in the game. They're not super-killy, no, but they're killy enough.

 

Templar Assault Terms are the deadliest loyal Marines on the charge, against MEq anyway, imo. You do need a LRC, mind you.

5 with Lightning Claws, preferred enemy, furious charge.

 

20 attacks. 15 hit. 13.3 wounds.

 

against TWC.

11.25 wounds.

 

say a five wolf pack with 2 SS. 3 dead and 2 3++ saves for each SS bearer.

 

against Hammernators.

4.43 failed saves. That all but cleans up the 5 man squad.

 

TWC might be the best Assault Unit in the game, but they are not the best Assaulting unit in the game.

It is the reach and durability that would give them that gong.

 

@Marshal Wilhelm

 

Looking at your math hammer, I don't believe your math hammer is truly representative of a real table top situation. In your example you go through one round of combat and stop. What about the next players turn of combat? In each situation (charging/recieving a charge) your hammenators take actual losses where as the TWC take wounds, but they still have a full squad to attack with. The second round of combat should see the hammenators with what, 2 models left? 4 attacks back? That's not even running the numbers for the TWC attacks 1st. Just one wound on the termies leaves a lone model left to attack back against the still full TWC squad?

 

In your second example with the TWC receiving the charge, they may or may not break after the fact, but in either case your hammenators are still down to 2 guys.

 

Also to split hairs, who really buys a plasma pistol for a squad that runs 95% of the time (arbitrary % picked out of my a$$) :).

 

I did try to say that the TWC win the war, even if they don't win the battle, in my previous post.

 

What I am trying to show is that TWC are 'only human' so to speak. They are not 'over-powered' as some say. They are a very good unit. But they are not infallible either, and Wolf players should be intelligent with them, just as they would be intelligent with their more humble units.

That way they'll last longer -> kill more -> get an even bigger reputation -> be even more feared, etc.

 

What you have said is all true. However, unless you get a great fleet role or your foe is not aware of the reach the TWC have, he'll also have shot at them, and even a couple of wounds will mean that when fighting the Hammernators [who are in a Raider] TWC will be taken off the TT and not just taking the beating Rocky-style.

 

You and I will know they are not perfect, but you don't have to let your foe find that out ;)

Confirm the myth and the legend.

Have your foe breaking a sweat just by placing the models on the TT :tu:

 

I took the Plasma pistol for WA purposes. There may well be a better way, I didn't go for the best I possibly could, and there is probably an even better unit than mine :)

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