Chaos "count as" questions

[minigun762]

This is something that I've always struggled with, I don't fully understand the details behind "count as" and how it relates to WYSIWYG. How much flexibility do you have with using other models or bits really? I'm not too concerned with casual games but I'd hate to be DQ'd at a tournament because of a modeling issue I was unaware of.

 

Specifically, I'm thinking of two main examples.

1) Using Soul Grinders and Defilers interchangeably or within the same army.

2) Using Possessed bits on non-Possessed units, in particular the mutation arms counting as Power Fists/Weapons.

 

Is there any official guidance here? How do I cover my butt and still use the models I want to use? :rolleyes:

[--eFTy-->]

On issues of possessed bits, I'm sure you won't have any problems even at tournaments. As for Defiler and Soul Grinders, the models are pretty damned similar, I don't think anyone would mind, though it would help asking your local organizers just in case.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

This is something that I've always struggled with, I don't fully understand the details behind "count as" and how it relates to WYSIWYG. How much flexibility do you have with using other models or bits really? I'm not too concerned with casual games but I'd hate to be DQ'd at a tournament because of a modeling issue I was unaware of.

 

Specifically, I'm thinking of two main examples.

1) Using Soul Grinders and Defilers interchangeably or within the same army.

2) Using Possessed bits on non-Possessed units, in particular the mutation arms counting as Power Fists/Weapons.

 

Is there any official guidance here? How do I cover my butt and still use the models I want to use? :rolleyes:

 

The issue of the Possessed bits shouldn't come up, as long as your list reflects the points value of the weapons they're supposed to have, and your opponent is made aware that the guy with the tentacle for a girlfriend is hitting at Str 8 I1.

 

The Soulgrinder/Defiler one, on the other hand, really depends on how huge a dick your tournament organizers are. Given that those are two distinct models from two different Codices, not just a matter of a couple of bits' worth of conversion, they could pull the WYSIWYG card and say that they're not legit. Some places are notorious for such antics (I know of at least one person who tried to use Warmachine 'jacks as Dreadnoughts and was told to either replace them in their list or leave at one local LGS) so you might want to call ahead and ask.

[minigun762]

The Soulgrinder/Defiler one, on the other hand, really depends on how huge a dick your tournament organizers are. Given that those are two distinct models from two different Codices, not just a matter of a couple of bits' worth of conversion, they could pull the WYSIWYG card and say that they're not legit. Some places are notorious for such antics (I know of at least one person who tried to use Warmachine 'jacks as Dreadnoughts and was told to either replace them in their list or leave at one local LGS) so you might want to call ahead and ask.

 

And thats my issue, its not worth my time to buy/paint/convert a model that I won't be able to use. The safe choice would be not to bother, but the common sense part of my brain says thats its an easy and harmless swap.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I almost wish you hadn't quoted me, I just saw the gigantic grammatical error I made in that. NyQuil posting always comes with a price. ;)

 

Personally, I'd say go for it. Even if it's a Soulgrinder model, as long as its rules function as a Defiler in all ways, you ought to be okay. If anything, you're sort-of burning yourself because the 'grinder is better than a Defiler is and you're stepping it down to a Defiler's "IG Guardsman in a box" stats. It occupies the same amount of tabletop space, occupies the same slot in the FOC, and is undeniably Chaos. There's a good chunk of logic on your side to proceed.

[the jeske]

And thats my issue, its not worth my time to buy/paint/convert a model that I won't be able to use. The safe choice would be not to bother, but the common sense part of my brain says thats its an easy and harmless swap.

 

 

they are different size . so you know would you let someone use preds instead of russes ? technicly both are tanks and both are imperial they can even be armed the same way. + but technicly we dont have counts as tournament rules anymore and army could be made out of stones , which as long would look the same for same choices would be legal[with the exeption of chaos wings which have to be modeled].

 

It occupies the same amount of tabletop space

only it doesnt. its had a different hull and upper body size.

[Dan The Deamon]

Man this something I think about a lot while making my models. The way I see things is no matter what i divulge all of my list to my opponent prior to gaming. These guys here are the zerks in the list, these guys here are the plagues, this guy here is the Daemon prince you see on the list. These guys have power fists, this guy has the plasma he's equipped with, this guy with the combi-melta? Well that's a melta because he can't have a combi-melta.

 

If Defilers and Soul grinders were in the same codex i'd say you would have some issues, but since they're not and are pretty much only similar to each other i'd say you were good. If you're trying to use an obliterator model as a daemon prince with no conversion or "counts as" ideas then you have issues. The model you're trying to use has a different entry in the dex and doesn't look at all like a WYSIWYG stretch.

 

I saw a guy playing a Nid army made entirely out of wood elves and lizardmen at Wargames Con. It was a counts as force as was entirely legal, he did have some problems from his opponents but his army was kind of a stretch. If you're using chaos possessed power fist on a chaos marine and someone gives you a hard time because possessed and powerfists aren't in the same entry, then they have problems, not you. By some peoples' logic the whole sprue is illegal as it represents war gear that possessed can't have. Plain silly

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

only it doesnt. its had a different hull and upper body size.

 

I was referring to base/legspan; getting burned on the size for TLOS is just going to have to be a given for height and bulk.

[Brother Nihm]

As long as you keep it consistent and believable, i.e. all powerfists = possessed fists etc. and point every little 'catch' out to your opponent before the match - then you'll be fine.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

 

Edit: this includes using the actual base sizes, model heights and so on.

[the jeske]

defilers dont have a base. and when you check LoS to stuff and you use stuff like counts as/sceninc bases your opponent can always ask you to put a legal GW sized model for that entry . So he would have to carry 2-3 grinders with him and a defiler to check LoS . So it doesnt matter what part is different , what If I made a nid army with 20: long arms[facing sideways] and did turn auto charge on my first turn , because that is what would happen if the rules worked like that.

[--eFTy-->]

20" long arms are useless as you have to get into base contact to initiate close combat.

 

Defilers and soul grinders have the same base chassis (the part with the legs - they use the same sprue) they just have different torsos (of which the grinder's is the bigger one) and claws (which are still quite similar so the foot print is the same).

 

If you really like the model, you should get it and use it. Even on the off-chance that one or two anal tourney organizers would ban it, it's not worth passing up on something you like because a few people have OCD.

[the jeske]

20" long arms are useless as you have to get into base contact to initiate close combat.

legs dude legs and i make a proper base for it "because" models with bases have to fit on them.

good 20" base was god send to all those nid builds with hth fex. for fexs all facing

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first turn turn move charge . good old 4th ed times with the "base cant be smaller then the one it was supplied " offcial ruling.

[Phosis]

I suppose a judge could say "You can't use that as a defiler, because it's a soulgrinder. Soulgrinder's are not in your codex". If they do, then you might as well pack and go home.. I don't see you (or me) having fun in an environment like that.

[Dan The Deamon]

Yeah if you're playing this game to put food on the table or solve territorial rivalry in small countries then stay away from counts as, Otherwise i'd say you're golden.

[zeronyne]

I think a soul grinder would be acceptable most of the time as a defiler in most casual games, but to meet strict WYSIWYG conventions, you'd probably want to model the chest cannon, the twin linked auto cannon, and the CC cat o nine tails. I like the soul grinder so much better than the defiler in terms of aesthetics that I may go this route.

[--eFTy-->]

20" long arms are useless as you have to get into base contact to initiate close combat.

legs dude legs and i make a proper base for it "because" models with bases have to fit on them.

good 20" base was god send to all those nid builds with hth fex. for fexs all facing

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first turn turn move charge . good old 4th ed times with the "base cant be smaller then the one it was supplied " offcial ruling.

 

What are you smoking? Even if you put them on 20" bases, those bases would have to be deployed at the start of the game 24" from the enemy deployment zone. You move 6"/turn no matter what your base size is so you won't gain didley squat.

 

If you want first turn charges play the old chaos codex and use infiltrating raptors.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i think the point, is, beyond the issue about true line of sight and base "foot print". Does the model, in keeping with the theme of the army, represent the "war gear" taken on the list?

Here's the trouble with using a grinder for deflier, or either which way you want to go. the grinder, does NOT have a battle cannon, muti tube missile launcher. What it does have is a huge blade and what, a claw? sorry doesn't work for me, in terms of "to count as". If i'm going to use the CALGAR stat line, the model HAS to have 2 power fist(or matching hth weapons) with 2 blasters that are also matched to each other. Now, what can you do? ease, get some green stuff, and bunch of 'Nid vemon cannons, or what ever you feels reps the guns, that need to repped, and get your converting groove on. Personally, if i was going to use Chaos models to "count as" any other List, i would use a soul grinder to count as a C'tan night bringer, for a count as 'crons list. or a god'fex for a Nid list..

some of the Count as armies that i like are the Ork counting as IG, using IG armor and transports with Ork icon glifs.

Kroot models for a pure gene stealer assault horde.

Plastic Codex marines with bare heads, to count as Sisters of battles (or better known as sissy of battle...)

oOoO.. maybe i should use my Raven wing models to "count as" a super heavy NOB think Kult of speed list... oOoO as long as i get busy, and replace all the Mg and Plasma guns, with combi flamers and Power fist to count as Power klaws..

but i think my all time fav, is the Aobr orks+plastic IG catachan+SM rhinos+a pair of ork battle wagons with hard tops, to count as, DHGK: Aobr warboss, as GKCM: aobr Nobs as GKT aobr Ork boyz as GKPA:use big shoota for psy cannons, and burna boys, for the GK flame template unit. IG catachans, as IST, with green stuff to make bomb/slave collars (...whoa,sic) ork up the rhinos for the IST, and use the Battle wagons as LRCs, and if need be, use killer kans as GKdreads, and a weird boy to count as that =][= lord, using more IG slaves as henchmen... fluff is easy for it, it's a weird boy Cult gathering that went on a WAAAAGGGHH that has gone HORRID and RUNNING AMOK

ok, sorry.. i need medication, and i think to much about little plastic toys... yes it a headache, yes you will have to explain your self.. but as long as you follow some common sense guide lines.. you should be fine.

Personally, i'd loved to see a well converted grinder with blistering with bio cannon from the 'nid line...

[Piousservant]

20" long arms are useless as you have to get into base contact to initiate close combat.

legs dude legs and i make a proper base for it "because" models with bases have to fit on them.

good 20" base was god send to all those nid builds with hth fex. for fexs all facing

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first turn turn move charge . good old 4th ed times with the "base cant be smaller then the one it was supplied " offcial ruling.

 

Ah, I went one better, I put my Chapter Master on a 4'x4' base. Pure win. :rolleyes:

[Supreme Overlord]

I have a counts-as question of my own, could CSM models with the winged Possessed backpacks be used as Raptors? (i.e. the wings as the jumppacks)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I have a counts-as question of my own, could CSM models with the winged Possessed backpacks be used as Raptors? (i.e. the wings as the jumppacks)

I don't see why not.

[minigun762]

I have a counts-as question of my own, could CSM models with the winged Possessed backpacks be used as Raptors? (i.e. the wings as the jumppacks)

 

That one is oddly complicated in my book. Normally I'd be all for it but the Chaos FAQ does call out different rules for Wings vs Jump Packs, namely that Wings can go into a transport.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have a counts-as question of my own, could CSM models with the winged Possessed backpacks be used as Raptors? (i.e. the wings as the jumppacks)

 

That one is oddly complicated in my book. Normally I'd be all for it but the Chaos FAQ does call out different rules for Wings vs Jump Packs, namely that Wings can go into a transport.

 

Doesn't matter; on a Raptor, it's still a Jump Pack and therefore can't go into a transport. What the jump pack looks like isn't relevant to the rules.

[--eFTy-->]

Knock yourself out. No one will bother you for using winged creatures as raptors. Everyone knows Raptors are flying marines that can't go into transports. As long as you tell your opponent clearly before the game "these guys are raptors" everything will be honky-dory.

[TheDarkApostle]

Knock yourself out. No one will bother you for using winged creatures as raptors. Everyone knows Raptors are flying marines that can't go into transports. As long as you tell your opponent clearly before the game "these guys are raptors" everything will be honky-dory.

And on opening that bag.

 

Does anyone know what the Blood Angel things counts as? I mean, they are both wings AND jump pack in one :)

 

TDA

[the jeske]

only A they dont have an option to buy wings and B their FAQ doesnt say wings/jump packs have to be modeled on the mini or cant be used.