Sang Guard Death Mask vs Walkers

[yodaid764]

Since you haven't shown me any rules that contradict my previous post I have to assume that by the RAW, you could argue that a walker is reduced to WS1. Most other powers or abilities say that the unit have to fail a test, but the deathmask says that any unit that does not succeed is affected. Hence, a cheesy player could argue for the deathmask to actually work on a walker.

Please let me know of any rules that contradict this.

 

I think the several posts by Grey Mage and others specifically stating that if a model/unit lacks a characteristic value altogether it cannot take a test based on it and is therefore not affected. I feel they were very clear in explaining this, so what part are you unclear about? Or is it just that you are "one of those types" that see the rules the way you want to and refuse to let anyone sway you unless the GW rules gods come to you specifically and say, "No, it doesn't work that way."

[ImperialReaper]

I guess its the same with any vehicle an pinning, isn´t it?

[Spacefrisian]

Now we play by RAW but you are losing this one mate, by RAW Walkers dont even have a Leadership value that you can target. Give it up already.

[ImperialReaper]

Now we play by RAW but you are losing this one mate, by RAW Walkers dont even have a Leadership value that you can target. Give it up already.

 

His Idea was that it does not matter that he has no Leadership - since RAW the masks entry dones not say hea hast to TAKE a test but to PASS a test. Which he obviously cant having no leadership, and even making it irrelevant weather he cant fail it also. Of cause as I said this is a whole new dimension of RAW since it menas turning off the brain completely and just do what is said - like binady 1 and 0.

But this way he is right.

[Judaz]

I just can't find anything in the rules that says that if you don't have a value, you aren't affected. Logic says that of course a walker isn't affected, but I said that I wanted the rules for it, not just some guy on the internet saying it's so.

If you read my first post it also says that I wouldn't use the mask that way.

 

There's no need for insults, an insult is just a way to argue without arguments.

[shatter]

http://www.reviewstl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Chuck-Norris-is-Walker-Texas-Ranger.jpg

 

Walker sees your masks and raises you a roundhouse.

[Morollan]

I just can't find anything in the rules that says that if you don't have a value, you aren't affected. Logic says that of course a walker isn't affected, but I said that I wanted the rules for it, not just some guy on the internet saying it's so.

If you read my first post it also says that I wouldn't use the mask that way.

 

It's just as easy to say that as walkers have no Ld they automatically pass any Ld test they are called upon to make as there's nothing in the rules to say either way. In the absence of a rule I'll go with logic and balance which, to me, says the mask doesn't work.

[Judaz]

Well, Morollan, thats the first argument to really punch a big hole in my argument, thanks!

 

See people, you can have a discussion with arguments instead of "you are just one of those stupid morons that make up your own rules. *Insert funny picture here*

 

 

But you shatter, you own us all. A kick right to the face!

[Spacefrisian]

Commenting on something that has been said many times before is quite strange.

[Judaz]

I really can't find any posts that equal what Morollan said. Some come close, yes, but no one really said what he just said now, black on white. I'm not stupid but some are and if we are to argue the rules we need to be crystal clear.

 

And I'm still hoping that someone can find something in the rules that ends this discission.

[JamesI]

Everyone, please be polite when posting. Lets keep this civil.

 

I'm going to leave this alone for a day or so, but if no suitable RAW solution presents itself, I'll toss it over to Official Rules where perhaps someone there can find what Judaz seeks, or perhaps this is a situation where GW thinks the answer in clear and doesn't actually make it clear.

[Leonaides]

What are the Vehicle rules with regards to Ld tests? If there is nothing specific to teh class of vehicle "Walkers", maybe the answer is in the 'generic' vihicle rules? I have a feelign that all vehicles are assumed to auto-pass Ld tests. (for instance being hit by a weapon that causes pinning or being involved in a lost combat)

[Morollan]

I believe it simply states Morale tests. Nothing about Ld sadly.

[Judaz]

Yes, and the pinning rule says clearly that "if a unit other than a vehicle..."

[BlackSpike]

So the argument is that unless the Target passes a Ld test, it is affected?

 

A Walker cannot take a test, and so can neither pass not fail.

As it has not passed a test, it is affected.

 

Has target passed Ld test?

Yes: (Cannot be, as Walker cannot take test)=No Effect.

No: (Always for walker. It cannot Pass, as it cannot Take)=Effect.

[Grey Mage]

What are the Vehicle rules with regards to Ld tests? If there is nothing specific to teh class of vehicle "Walkers", maybe the answer is in the 'generic' vihicle rules? I have a feelign that all vehicles are assumed to auto-pass Ld tests. (for instance being hit by a weapon that causes pinning or being involved in a lost combat)

There are none. A model cannot test on a characteristic it doesnt have.

 

The only reference to anything even using the LD characteristic is Morale tests. Wherein it says they never take them, for any reason.

 

There is in fact an entire section devoted to vehicle characteristics, and a second section devoted to additional ones possesed by walkers, neither mentions leadership.

 

Now, when we go reference the rules for characteristic tests, we find if a model has a characteristic of 0, it fails. Vehicles do NOT have a 0, they simply dont have one at all. This is very different. The difference, for example, of having a credit card without a bank account attached and a credit card with account attached that has a balance of 0.

 

A vehicle could potentially take an AV test, though it would be a bit odd. Most vehicles can only take BS tests, wich dont really come up.... walkers in addition can take WS tests, Iniative tests, and attacks tests.... iniative tests we sometimes see. Ah, and strength tests, at wich they tend to be pretty good. None of these however are leadership tests.

[Volcatus]

Amazing.

 

Working under the line of thinking that you can make a model take a test for a characteristic it does not posses, let's see how far this rabbit hole goes!

 

A dreadnought is a vehicle. So is a tank! Neither have a Ld value. Now, the entry for the Death Masks specifies "enemy", and makes no exception for vehicles. So, if we invent stats for the Dread, we invent them for the tank as well. The tank must take a Leadership test too, and like the Dread it fails. This same line of logic forces us to invent a WS value for the tank as well, because hey, we did it for Ld, right? And since Codex wargear can trump BrB, tanks now fall under regular CC rules and the Sang Guard will hit on a 3+, and lock the tank in combat if it manages to survive. Luckily the tank doesn't have to take a Morale test though, eh? :wallbash:

 

Please don't invent imaginary stats for models that don't have them.

[Brother_Kluft]

The entry for the death mask states "Enemy units must pass a leadership test or ..." [Codex BA, pg 50]

 

Let us assume, reasonably, that "pass" ="take and succeed"

 

Therefore we have "Enemy units must take and succeed a leadership test or ..."

 

"In order to take the test, roll a D6" [Main Rulebook, pg 8]

 

Clearly taking a test is not something the models does, but the player does. Ergo, the Dreadnought can take the test.

 

"To take the test you must roll equal to or lower than the characteristic. Note that a roll of 6 always succeeds regardless of the characterisitcs value, and a 1 always fails regardless of the characteristics value" [Main Rulebook, pg 8]

 

 

The dreadnoughts characteristic value for LD is unknown

 

So we have the options

 

Roll Result

6 Failure

Roll >Characteristic < 6 unknown

1 < characteristic =< Roll unknown

1 Success

 

Therefore by RAW the dead passes on a 1, and fails on a 6. Any other result results in a rules failure, and the game must end! (or you must youse common sense and reason to continue)

[Grey Mage]

The entry for the death mask states "Enemy units must pass a leadership test or ..." [Codex BA, pg 50]

 

Let us assume, reasonably, that "pass" ="take and succeed"

Indeed, but we could also, reasonably, assume they cant take a test with an attribute they dont have, and thus can neither pass nor fail it. They cannot fail a leadership test because they have no ld score.

 

In a similar fashion, a vehicle cant be forced to take a toughness test- a dreadnaught simply cannot be affected by Gift of Chaos for example.

 

You have divided by zero, nothing happens.

 

The idea that vehicles have a LD of 10 for any purposes not covered is leftover from 4rth edition. This is no longer the case.

[SKeeM]

You guys are STUPID! Dreadnoughts are fearless! They are always concidered to pass any morale or leadership teast. OK!

[Spacefrisian]

You guys are STUPID! Dreadnoughts are fearless! They are always concidered to pass any morale or leadership teast. OK!

 

 

They seem to have trouble reading and wont understand it, prepare for a stupid counter argument not based on anything by them.

[Judaz]

SKeeM, you forgot to insert at picture.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I can´t believe that this discussion has filled two pages so far, even though the answer is clearly "no" and every opponent who attempts to get this foul rule abuse working should be slapped in the face with the BRB. :D

 

 

 

Snorri

[BlackSpike]

I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to the post made by JamesI.

[Judaz]

I totally agree with you on the slapping Snorri, but it is tiny hole in the rules and it's best if we get it shut. And the only way to really close it is by using the rules, not common sense.