Sang Guard Death Mask vs Walkers

[yodaid764]

Seems like everyone else is using common sense and the rules to prove why Death Masks dont work but only 2 people in this thread still insist that they do/might. There are 11 other people who say they don't and many of those have posted the rules from the BRB to back up their claim. That being the case a vast majority of players agree that they don't work against Walkers and that consensus should be the end of the argument/discussion.

[BlackSpike]

Seems like everyone else is using common sense and the rules to prove why Death Masks dont work but only 2 people in this thread still insist that they do/might. There are 11 other people who say they don't and many of those have posted the rules from the BRB to back up their claim. That being the case a vast majority of players agree that they don't work against Walkers and that consensus should be the end of the argument/discussion.

 

What people think of as "Common Sense" is usually their own opinion, and also has little influence on what the rules say or mean.

 

The majority is not always right. Just because Lots of people are mistaken, does not make them right!

 

Would anyone like to summarise the quotes from the Rule Book showing why the mask cannot work on Walkers?

 

On the "Mask Does Affect Dreadnoughts" side, there is:

It is "Common Sense" that a Dreadnought is a Marine (albeit almost dead), and so can be affected by the Supernaturally Fearsome Effect of the Mask.

It has a WS, which could be reduced.

It cannot Pass a Ld Test (the requirement to avoid the Mask's effect).

[SnorriSnorrison]

On the "Mask Does Affect Dreadnoughts" side, there is:

It is "Common Sense" that a Dreadnought is a Marine (albeit almost dead), and so can be affected by the Supernaturally Fearsome Effect of the Mask.

It has a WS, which could be reduced.

It cannot Pass a Ld Test (the requirement to avoid the Mask's effect).

 

You can't force a vehicle to take a test which it has no stat for, that would be ridiculous. How do you think this should work? Just say "oh, no LD, huh? Automatically fails the test, so I hit you dread with my PF on 3´s."

 

I think someone around these forums once said: "when clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden ability, then it is the result of wishful thinking."(qouted freely, don't hit me if I left out or changed a word)

 

A FAQ is unlikely, as the designers can't imagine how players could come up with this.

 

 

Snorri

[BlackSpike]

On the "Mask Does Affect Dreadnoughts" side, there is:

It is "Common Sense" that a Dreadnought is a Marine (albeit almost dead), and so can be affected by the Supernaturally Fearsome Effect of the Mask.

It has a WS, which could be reduced.

It cannot Pass a Ld Test (the requirement to avoid the Mask's effect).

 

You can't force a vehicle to take a test which it has no stat for, that would be ridiculous. How do you think this should work? Just say "oh, no LD, huh? Automatically fails the test, so I hit you dread with my PF on 3´s."

 

I think someone around these forums once said: "when clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden ability, then it is the result of wishful thinking."(qouted freely, don't hit me if I left out or changed a word)

 

A FAQ is unlikely, as the designers can't imagine how players could come up with this.

 

 

Snorri

 

That is the point I am making!

The mask will affect a Unit, unless it passes a Ld test.

A dreadnought cannot take this test, and so cannot pass (or fail) it.

As it has not passed the Ld test, it will be affected.

No 'clever reading'. No wishful thinking. It didn't pass. So it is WS1.

 

If the Mask's rule had said "If a Unit Fails a Ld Test, it will be affected", then I would be arguing that seeing as it cannot take the Test, it cannot Fail, and so would not be affected.

But it does not. It says "must pass a Ld test or be reduced to WS1".

As a Walker cannot Pass a Ld test, it must be reduced to WS1.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I think someone around these forums once said: "when clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden ability, then it is the result of wishful thinking."(qouted freely, don't hit me if I left out or changed a word)

 

A FAQ is unlikely, as the designers can't imagine how players could come up with this.

 

 

Snorri

 

It was Pete Haines and I've got the quote in my signature.

[Spacefrisian]

Its the same as drivers license theory exam, if it aint on the pic it aint their. That should be applied to any of gw ruling. If it aint their its not an option neither is it possible.

 

 

If you still not agree that its not possible just follow the following stepps.

 

1. Grab the pc screen with both hands

2. Smash youre head as hard as possible against it.

3. Think of this as us ramming the correct use of the rules into that brain of you.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

How has this discussion even made it to a third page? If you don't have a Ld Value you can't even take the test, therefore you should be assumed to automatically pass. It says that walkers do not take morale tests, while I understand there is a distinct difference between Morale and Ld tests, this should be understood. People are just trying to find a loop hole to cheese their opponents even more. Don't get me wrong I'm a strong believer in RAW but this is an instance that pushing for a Bjorn the Fellhanded to suddenly (and automatically) lose over ten millenia of combat experience when a guy in gold armor stands in front of him is just plain silly. I think this is an instance of "spirit of the game" taking precedence over "RAW". Maybe this should be in the next FAQ... as stated earlier. Bearing in mind I am a Blood Angel player through and through. It is my main army and has been for nearly a decade. I would be all for "all walkers are assumed to be Ld 10" however the only basis for that is our own Librarian Dreads being "assumed to have Ld 10 for the purpose of psychic powers". Perhaps a system based on the army the walker is from or what its pilot is assumed to be (i.e. Sentinels - Ld 7, War Walkers - Ld 9, Dreadnoughts - Ld 10, Killa Kans - Ld 8, Deff Dreads - Ld 9, etc.)

 

-Samirus

[BlackSpike]

So the case for Mask not working is that a Walker is not a valid target, as it has no Ld?

 

I am arguing that it is a valid target, as it has WS and can be assaulted.

 

The power gives two options:

1) Reduce WS to 1

2) Pass a Ld test.

 

A Walker cannot take option 2), having no Ld, and being able to attempt a Ld test, and so must take Option 1.

 

Can someone summarise the arguments for the other side please?

[BlackSpike]

A FAQ is unlikely, as the designers can't imagine how players could come up with this.

 

The designers don't seem to be able to imagine much beyond the end of their nose.

How difficult would it have been to say "any non-vehicle unit ..."

[yodaid764]

So the case for Mask not working is that a Walker is not a valid target, as it has no Ld?

 

I am arguing that it is a valid target, as it has WS and can be assaulted.

 

The power gives two options:

1) Reduce WS to 1

2) Pass a Ld test.

 

A Walker cannot take option 2), having no Ld, and being able to attempt a Ld test, and so must take Option 1.

 

Can someone summarise the arguments for the other side please?

 

This is just dumb. By this way of thinking, I can surmise the following:

All my marines wear armor. Therefore, all armor needs to have an armor value. Since the marine profile has no AV listed, we can say it is the same as the lowest AV vehicle. Ergo, any shooting attack has to beat my marine's AV 10 to wound them.

This kind of circular logic can go on forever, but it it still garbage.

I love how the people arguing FOR the mask keep demanding others show them by the rules how they can be proven wrong, but when someone does, they just ignore them.

Try pulling this in a tournament and getting laughed out of the building as a result. I would love to see that.

[BlackSpike]

1) Marine Power Armour HAS a value. It is 3+. I'm not sure how this is the same though.

2) I haven't asked for Rules, I have asked for a summary of the arguments.

2b) Can you please quote the rules you say I am ignoring?

3) Tournaments can, and frequently do, make up their own rules. You play by THEIR rules (not yours, not mine, not GWs!), or leave.

[Judaz]

There is still no argument based on actual facts against this. All argument I see against this is common sense. Show us another ruling against anything like this or a rule that tells us that the walker automatically passes. The problem with this case is how the rules for the mask is written, it leaves a small hole and it shouldn't do that.

 

You may think whatever you will about the few of us that seeks actual facts in this case. We use the rulebook and the codex, you guys don't really have much else than sarcasm and insults. Please, show us the rules, FAQ or an official ruling in a similar case and we'll happily drop this.

 

If you can't keep it civil you don't have to post anything. I doubt that BlackSpike or anyone on "my side" will ever try to use this loophole as it's clearly a strech. BUT, it's not about anyone using it, it's about if it's allowed or not.

I could have a problem shutting down an determined opponent trying something like this when I can't point to the rules that says that he can't do it. If I can't show him any rules and we disagree, the issue will have to be decided with a die roll and thats not really a good thing.

 

Give us the rules. I have already read that, by way of common sense, it should not work, and I agree. But I need the rules.

[BlackSpike]

Thank you , Judaz.

I'm sorry I couldn't express it so clearly.

 

People just saying "I don't like it, it's obviously a loophole", followed with "STUPID!", "dumb", #dreddsock# is hardly an argument that holds water.

 

So far, no-one has addressed any of the points I have made.

 

And JamesI did ask us to play nice.

[Grey Mage]

As it has not passed the Ld test, it will be affected.

 

This is where you fail.

 

The dread cannot be affected because it cannot take the test.

 

Just like it cannot be affected by things that require a toughness test, because it has no toughness value- example, C:CSM.

[SamaNagol]

Having read all of the pertinent entries in the BRB and codices I can see why he would use this INCREDIBLY skewed line of reasoning.

 

The wording of the Death Mask rules states you must pass a Ld test or have your WS reduced to one. That's pretty clear actually. It does not say 'if you fail a Ld test'. It does not say 'you must pass a morale test'. It is simply a loosely worded rule which CAN be interpreted in the way the poster has suggested.

 

The only answer you can give is that it defies common sense.

 

However seeing as models with the Fearless special rule ALSO must take a Leadership test or have their WS reduced to 1 due to being afraid, I see that as no less nonsensical as a Walker being affected in the same way.

[ImperialReaper]

Well count me in on the people who think that RAW - and I mean realy brains off RAW - the Masks should work.

 

The point is RAW it just requires PASSING a LD test - which 90% of the answers here seem to ignore, again and again pointing out that a walker cant take the test. Yes, nice but it does not matter here. In a binary logic where the question is PASSED? And the answers are YES and NO - the walker would get a no - obviously because he cant take a test, but this does not matter here.

 

And come on guys - I have seen some B&A rule interpretation topics about the new BA Codex shortly after it came out and we had no FAQ yet. And this topic realy isn`t more "stupid" than most of the RAW interpretations back then...

[Grimtooth]

The logical process breaks down for the "for" camp when you equate the walker not being able to take the test with him automatically then failing it. That is your downfall.

 

The mask calls for a unit to pass a leadership test.

 

The walker has no leadership to place as a value against said requiered test.

 

That does not result in a failure. A leadership value is requiered to fulfill the leadership test with a true result of either pass or fail.

 

In this case, the mask with perpetually ask for a value from the walker to test. The walker not having a value to submit to said requested test then perpetually ignores the mask's request.

 

Considering the infinite loop created by a request for the leadership test with the denial of a leadership value to submit for said test, the reduction of WS can never happen.

[SamaNagol]

No, that is not what is being said. The terms of the Death Mask rules state 'you must pass'. They do not state 'if you fail'. Ergo, if a model CANNOT pass a Leadership test, by retarded RAW it is affected by the Death Mask. The only way to avoid the Death Mask affects is to submit a 'positive' result for the Ld test. Submitting a failure, or in your example an 'error' therefor does not exclude you from the affects of the Death Mask

[Grimtooth]

To even "pass" the test, a test must be possible to take in the first place. Pass or Fail are results of taking a Leadership test. The mask entry telss you that the unit must pass a leadership test. The BRB specifies what is entailed when directed to take a leadership test and how to determine a pass result as directed by the mask.

 

You are not directed to define passing a leadership test as even being able to take the test. As defined by the BRB,

 

"If the result is equal to or less then than the model's Leadership, the test is passed"

 

As I have already pointed out, determining if a walker passes a leadership test, per the definition of passing a leadership test in the BRB, not your definition, is impossible. You are left with an endless loop of the mask asking you to pass a leadership test to which the walker ignores as it has no leadership to submit to the defined Leadership test.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you can tell me as a matter of fact what value of leadership any dreadnaught should use to roll then those in favor might have a small ledge to stand on. This is all about looking for a loophole to be exploited. Dreadnaughts do not have a leadership and are fearless. Just because other units that are fearless have a leadership value does not equate to a dreadnaught. It's just the same as saying that a vehicle without a WS must take a break check. You can argue this up and down until you are blue in the face. There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying common sense when interpreting the rules, in fact rules should be interpreted as such. Sure there will always be a small percentage of players that claim common sense has no place, that fluff/background has no bearing, but in fact it does - rules are designed with fluff in mind. Thats the way it is.

 

0b :ermm:

[SamaNagol]

If you cannot in any way take the test, you cannot pass it. do you agree or disagree with this statement?

 

In NO place in the rulebook does it say that walkers or vehicles ignore leadership tests. It addresses Morale tests.

 

Now if this rule were to say 'You must pass a Morale test' then the issue would be mute.

 

Simply saying that people who look at the rules in such a way are 'exploiting' or looking for loopholes actually completely ignores the real reason and in fact benefit for looking at the rules in this way. To force GW to write far more streamlined and well worded rules, and if they cannot do this, then to adopt a 'live' update system of their rules when such issues arise to 'patch' them.

[Grimtooth]

If you cannot in any way take the test, you cannot pass it. do you agree or disagree with this statement?

 

In NO place in the rulebook does it say that walkers or vehicles ignore leadership tests. It addresses Morale tests.

 

Now if this rule were to say 'You must pass a Morale test' then the issue would be mute.

 

Simply saying that people who look at the rules in such a way are 'exploiting' or looking for loopholes actually completely ignores the real reason and in fact benefit for looking at the rules in this way. To force GW to write far more streamlined and well worded rules, and if they cannot do this, then to adopt a 'live' update system of their rules when such issues arise to 'patch' them.

 

You are taking the statement that the walker cannot take the test to it not being able to pass the test. This ks wrong and is not the specific definition given by the BRB for passing a Leadership test. Please reas page 8 for the clear definition of what constitues passing a Leadership test.

 

For a walker to be considered to have passed or failed a Leadership test, he first must be able to take said Leadership test. Unable to even take the Leadership test does not constitue being unable to pass.

 

To edit in an answer to your question, if I cannot in anyway take the test, I cannot take the test. That is all you can imply. Per the BRB definition, the only way you can determine if I can pass the test is if I can even take the test.

[Grey Mage]

No, that is not what is being said. The terms of the Death Mask rules state 'you must pass'. They do not state 'if you fail'. Ergo, if a model CANNOT pass a Leadership test, by retarded RAW it is affected by the Death Mask. The only way to avoid the Death Mask affects is to submit a 'positive' result for the Ld test. Submitting a failure, or in your example an 'error' therefor does not exclude you from the affects of the Death Mask

It cannot TAKE the test.

 

The description is neither yes, nor no. It is not pass, or fail.

 

It is N/A.

[Grimtooth]

No, that is not what is being said. The terms of the Death Mask rules state 'you must pass'. They do not state 'if you fail'. Ergo, if a model CANNOT pass a Leadership test, by retarded RAW it is affected by the Death Mask. The only way to avoid the Death Mask affects is to submit a 'positive' result for the Ld test. Submitting a failure, or in your example an 'error' therefor does not exclude you from the affects of the Death Mask

It cannot TAKE the test.

 

The description is neither yes, nor no. It is not pass, or fail.

 

It is N/A.

 

And that is the problem with the "for" camp. Equating cannot take the test with not passing the test is not supported by the BRB or RAW.

[SamaNagol]

Cannot take the test does not equal a pass. Ergo you are affected by the Death Mask. Please explain otherwise without using notions such as 'common sense' and 'fluff'. As I said before, using logic engines if you need a 'positive' result and get instead an 'error' result then you will not activate. Failure to activate in this instance results in you fighting with WS1.

 

It is very clear in its wording. You must pass a Leadership test otherwise you fight at WS1. If you cannot take a Ld test you cannot pass one. It doesn't make you immune to Leadership as that is not in the rulebook. It is an assumption based on common sense.