HQ choices

[Hiro_Protagonist]

In case you forgot (and it would appear that many of you have), the topic is about

What is the best HQ choice for a new chaos space marines army

 

The best HQ is whatever supports your army build, and your preferences.

[JamesI]

In case you forgot (and it would appear that many of you have), the topic is about

What is the best HQ choice for a new chaos space marines army

 

The best HQ is whatever supports your army build, and your preferences.

Generally I would agree with this.

 

In the chaos codex though, almost always a demon prince is a better choice than a sorceror or a lord. And I play chaos and have started running a lord again just because I want to.

 

Guys, lets take the fluff discussion to another thread. There are plenty of threads to argue the fluffiness of the chaos codex.

[Legatus]

Can we not refer to fluffyness in an answer to a broad question such as "which is the best HQ for Chaos"? ;)

 

 

it was khorn lord with 1ksons . own words of JJ from WD . cant get an more official fluff then WD and codex.

A hobby article that is encouraging players to do what they want and not (as it sounds) let themselves be restricted by self imposed fluff boundaries, is not really a viable fluff reference. :D

 

 

"The new Codex allows me to have a Slaanesh Daemon Prince lead a bunch of Berserkers, therefor that is now fluffy."

of course you do know that under the 3.5 rules i was possible to have 3 oblits a khorn DP slanesh NM in the same army

You could not have a Khorne Daemon Prince leading an army of just a few Slaanesh units in the 3.5 Codex. You could have a Khorne Daemon Prince lead a bigger undecided force that also included a few Slaanesh units, but you would have to have a base of undivided or Khorne Troops choices in that force. In the 4th Edition Codex, your Khorne Daemon Prince can lead an army of nothing but Slaanesh units.

 

 

I am talking about fluff.

same thing I was talking about

Erm...

 

 

in 2ed the fluff was that sm do ally with eldar . in 3ed and every edition after that , the fluff wasthat they dont [outside of apo that is] ally .

That's not fluff. Or does Apocalypse have completely different fluff from regular 40K? IN regular 40K fluff, Marines and ELdar do not ally, but in Apocalypse fluff they do?

 

 

JJ 3ed DA dex. DA do not ally with INQ , DA JJ 4th ed dex ... change to fluff INQ does ally with DA.

And that's not fluff either.

 

"Fluff" refers to a factions background, backstory, theme. It does not refer to an army list or rules, though those can give insights into an army's fluff. But the army list or rules may also be horribly incapable to represent the army's fluff.

 

I.e. Using two Warbosses. Not really fluffy. In the 3rd Edition Kodex Orks that was not even possible (initially it was, but it was errata'ed later). In the 4th Edition Kodex Orks that is now possible. It still isn't fluffy though.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Can we not refer to fluffyness in an answer to a broad question such as "which is the best HQ for Chaos"? :D

Yes. But what you are doing is arguing about what fluffiness is.

 

X is the best because (insert fluff here). - Correct

 

Y is the best because (insert effectiveness here). - Correct

 

Y's (effectiveness) is not (fluff). - Incorrect

[Legatus]

I see, you are of course right.

 

Personally, I usually use a Lord or Sorcerer for my Night Lords.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

For my army its usually Daemon Prince w/ wing Warptime, Wind, Mark of Tzeentch

 

Unless I'm going against orks, in which case it's Lord with a Deathscreamer.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Unless I'm going against orks, in which case it's Lord with a Deathscreamer.

Interesting. What's the reasoning behind that? Just curious.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Unless I'm going against orks, in which case it's Lord with a Deathscreamer.

Interesting. What's the reasoning behind that? Just curious.

I find that orks tarpit my Daemon prince too easily. Against marines he's golden, but just can't cause enough wounds to an ork mob. Even when supported by another Thousand Sons squad if they lose the combat (which happens often) because he counts as a separate unit he also has to take the fearless saves,which will eventually kill him. I lose more guys to fearless than I do to just about anything else.

 

The Lord on the other hand can add to my ranged attack and help in close combat (with more attacks barring a "1"). And if we lose the combat he doesn't have to take his own fearless saves as he is part of a squad.

[Grey Mage]

One always has a choice.

 

I COULD bring 4 Rune Priest to every 2k fight I have and spam psychic powers to make a tzeentchi daemon cry...

 

I could run with 15 guided Dark Reapers in my Eldar lists...

problem is mage chaos does not have what other armies like SW have . You can switch a 2xRP to a lord +RP one or go RP+ biker WP [for a biker build]. you can do razorspams [not just with SW] . An sm player who wants anti tank has many units to choose from. he can go drop dreads , MM attack bikes , maybe sternguard in a pod [be it 5 man with 3 combis or 10 with 6 combat squading] . has has oblits and that is it . A RP and lord is different , sure you can go easy on a nid player and save him the "fun" of playing against 3-4 rune priest , thunder lords or WP can be still viable and still give something to a list [a guy with TH/SS with lots of attacks and eternal warrior] . chaos can pick between a choppy guy , a choppy guy that can be ID and can stun himself and a a lot less choppy guy with FW [which considering SS , his ws and str doesnt have enough attacks to kill an opposing IC regularly] . But that is not all at 1500-1750 it doesnt show much , but when someone goes 2 or more points played chaos players suddenly realise they dont have options to pick from. while armies like SW or BA get whole new builds at 2k and more. units that are not realy viable at 1500 suddenly are an interesting option . So yeah . some armies can go "easy" and dont play the best of the best the codex has , chaos cant because chaos other options suck hard.

Thing is Jeske, I actually think running 4 Rune Priests, sucks. Besides being about as fluff as SWs led by a Cannoness, its boring, and tactically unsound in an all comvers enviroment.

 

About all the rest I can sift out of the mess of this giant paragraph is that all chaos HQs are choppy, some more so than others, and you think if its not the DPx2 option it sucks. None of that is news to me.

 

On the other hand, you and I have been through this debate before eh? YOUR metagame is unlike anyone else on this board in so many ways- including other eastern europeans and tournament circuit goers Ive talked to. Youve made your choice- nothing less than a DP will do.

 

But other players get their own choice Jeske, and what is right for you isnt always whats right for them. Theres more than one situation where if you want Lash, having a DP over a sorceror is going to bite you in the behind. There are going to be metagames where running slaaneshi raptors is going to save your hide. Ive seen thousand sons lists place well in tournaments and do well against the plasma spam of an IG list.... etc etc etc.

 

There IS always a choice. Youve got three non-SC options in the CSM codex, and frankly all of them could be viable. Ill agree, the lord is underpowered for his price, invunerable saves on an HQ are just to important these days. I cant agree with Nihms assessment that he need eternal warrior if he gets it though.

 

Sorcerers have a good flexable build that can open up some options to the force. There well costed, with a statline almost identical to a SM captain. They could certainly rip apart any of the 'support' HQs in CC by themselves, and you can take as many or as few powers as you want. What gives him the edge over a DP in my local meta-game is the ability to join a unit.

 

A single, or even a pair of, DPs is just going to get rapid fired to death or hit with a heavy weapon team until he cries. Using a rhino wall to cover him? Woo-hoo, his 5++ became a 4++, nothing I cant handle. Theyre straightforwardly killy, fair enough, but theyre also huge. Wings helps, but they dont have fleet and an isnt getting into a transport..... They die twice as fast as either of the ICs in my area.

 

SO. If I were asked by a new C:CSM player, what HQ blister to add to his new force, Id ask him a little about what he was building, and 9/10 Id recommend a Sorcerer to him.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Unless I'm going against orks, in which case it's Lord with a Deathscreamer.

Interesting. What's the reasoning behind that? Just curious.

I find that orks tarpit my Daemon prince too easily. Against marines he's golden, but just can't cause enough wounds to an ork mob. Even when supported by another Thousand Sons squad if they lose the combat (which happens often) because he counts as a separate unit he also has to take the fearless saves,which will eventually kill him. I lose more guys to fearless than I do to just about anything else.

 

The Lord on the other hand can add to my ranged attack and help in close combat (with more attacks barring a "1"). And if we lose the combat he doesn't have to take his own fearless saves as he is part of a squad.

Ah, Interesting. I'll bear that in mind the next time I fight Orks. (You are right, Tarpitting a Prince is easy when facing 30ish boyz in a unit)

 

Sorcerers have a good flexable build that can open up some options to the force. There well costed, with a statline almost identical to a SM captain. They could certainly rip apart any of the 'support' HQs in CC by themselves, and you can take as many or as few powers as you want. What gives him the edge over a DP in my local meta-game is the ability to join a unit.

 

A single, or even a pair of, DPs is just going to get rapid fired to death or hit with a heavy weapon team until he cries. Using a rhino wall to cover him? Woo-hoo, his 5++ became a 4++, nothing I cant handle. Theyre straightforwardly killy, fair enough, but theyre also huge. Wings helps, but they dont have fleet and an isnt getting into a transport..... They die twice as fast as either of the ICs in my area.

Strange you should find this Grey Mage. I find that in my local Metagame, killing a Monstrous Creature is the hardest thing for an army to do. I suppose Metagame is EVERYTHING when it comes down to certain choices. (I run a Lash Support DP or a Tzeentch WT/WoC monster, and they tend to survive almost anything, whilst my infantry take a HUGE beating)

[Grey Mage]

The problem is hes T5, and we have alot of missile launchers and alot of plasma in my local metagame- because of all the meched up marine style armies out there. People have found, time and again, the need fof S7 and S8 weaponry that ignores atleast AP 3 if not AP 2.

 

You get enough of it saturating the area, and the DP starts having issues against people who arent playing nidz or orkz.

 

To clarify- my local area is, as most seem to be, heavy on the marines. However, the second most popular army is without a doubt tau, followed by a 2 player tie of eldar, nidz, necrons, and gaurd. Everything else tends to have 0-1 players at a tournament.

 

What kills Nidz? MLs and plasma. What kills marines/ MLs and Plasma. What kills DPs? MLs and plasma. What kills tau? Well, assault... but also, MLs and plasma.

 

So what do people take a good amount of? MLs and plasma. And to think we only have two wolves actively playing in my area- the few extras we had turned into BA... Im kind of impressed the other kid stayed.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with Grey Mage that DP have a tragic weakness and that is they can't hide inside units. For all their power and stat line they can be shot down without reaching combat fairly easily. That is the reason they are as cheap as they are (which makes them a good choice).

 

However, a Chaos Lord, whilst being slightly more expensive, can be very nasty to deal with for the same reasons as Space Marines characters. They aren't going to win the game on their own, but being inside a unit they are hard to deal with and provide a solid core to the combat, hence their additional cost.

 

Although I don't like Possessed, they are aren't the worse in the world in numbers because they are hard hitting enough whilst with an attached Chaos Lord and do have an invlunerable save. Stick a Chaos Lord with them and you do have a unit that will be hard to deal with.

 

Of course, that is against the accepted "meta" so we aren't allowed, but I'm willing to bet it isn't as ineffective as people believe...

[Shas'o R'Vre]

The problem is hes T5, and we have alot of missile launchers and alot of plasma in my local metagame- because of all the meched up marine style armies out there. People have found, time and again, the need fof S7 and S8 weaponry that ignores atleast AP 3 if not AP 2.

 

To clarify- my local area is, as most seem to be, heavy on the marines. However, the second most popular army is without a doubt tau, followed by a 2 player tie of eldar, nidz, necrons, and gaurd. Everything else tends to have 0-1 players at a tournament.

Ah, this makes sense now. My local Meta seems to consist of Assaulty Marine armies (Biker BA, Jump BA, Mech Wolves and Infiltrating/Jump Vanilla Marines), Tank-Heavy Guard and Swarm Orks/'Nids, so I tend to see a lot of Plasma Cannons and Fast PW's/Fists, Hordes, or Blast Templates.

 

Although I don't like Possessed, they are aren't the worse in the world in numbers because they are hard hitting enough whilst with an attached Chaos Lord and do have an invlunerable save. Stick a Chaos Lord with them and you do have a unit that will be hard to deal with.

 

Of course, that is against the accepted "meta" so we aren't allowed, but I'm willing to bet it isn't as ineffective as people believe...

The problem with Possessed is the random abilities and how much they cost for them. At 26pts per model, I'd be happy if they had FC or PW or FnP, but it's the fact that they can end up with something poor like Scout...

[Legatus]

but it's the fact that they can end up with something poor like Scout...

In 5th Edition, 'Scout' is transfered to a unit's dedicated transport. So if you rolled that, you have a potential first turn charge at your hands. If that was the case, and if the conditions are right, screw the Lord and try to get the jump at an enemy unit. That should throw a bone in every opponent's gears, and might be what decidedly tips the game in your favour from the start. The Lord can go with a different unit then (you would have to deploy him near the possessed, probably attached to a different unit, in order to be able to do that. If they don't roll 'Scout' you can relocate the Lord to the possessed in your first turn.)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, the abilities it had weren't so good in 4th edition when the Codex first came out and people haven't re-evaluated them since then, so they forget the potential with the Possessed rules because their taste buds have been soured by the previous effectiveness of the unit.

[Hellios]

Yeah, the abilities it had weren't so good in 4th edition when the Codex first came out and people haven't re-evaluated them since then, so they forget the potential with the Possessed rules because their taste buds have been soured by the previous effectiveness of the unit.

 

If I remember right you role for the abillity after you deploy them which is what makes them bad... you can't deploy them where their skill might be most useful... I'm going to use scout as an Example... with my 13th company space wolves I would often deploy out in the open knowing I had scout (and Move through cover) meaning that I would most likely be able to get to that bush and hide in it... Now with the crazy chaos guys I don't know if I will get scout so I might hide them somewhere at the back or middle of my deployment so if the enemy goes first I won't get shot... now I roll scout... but because of where I am it isn't very useful (granted if you are mounted this might be less of a problem) and the same also applies to other skills (if you are deploying second) depending on what skill they have might change what you want to throw them against... however I won't know this until I've deployed them already and that is why a lot of the time other choices are better because you know what they will do... I still think they are better than Dreads and Spawn however... oh and the other flaw if you can call it that is that they lack high S weapons for vehicle popping and you know how many people are in the current meta they like every squad to have at least 1 melta, plasma, fist so they can shoot that mechanical monster... I play eldar we have no choice :< although when we have meltas in a squad we have lots of meltas ^^

[Shas'o R'Vre]

but it's the fact that they can end up with something poor like Scout...

In 5th Edition, 'Scout' is transfered to a unit's dedicated transport. So if you rolled that, you have a potential first turn charge at your hands.

:P Why did I not think of this?! *goes to repaint his Possessed*

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, the abilities it had weren't so good in 4th edition when the Codex first came out and people haven't re-evaluated them since then, so they forget the potential with the Possessed rules because their taste buds have been soured by the previous effectiveness of the unit.

 

If I remember right you role for the abillity after you deploy them which is what makes them bad... you can't deploy them where their skill might be most useful... I'm going to use scout as an Example... with my 13th company space wolves I would often deploy out in the open knowing I had scout (and Move through cover) meaning that I would most likely be able to get to that bush and hide in it... Now with the crazy chaos guys I don't know if I will get scout so I might hide them somewhere at the back or middle of my deployment so if the enemy goes first I won't get shot... now I roll scout... but because of where I am it isn't very useful (granted if you are mounted this might be less of a problem) and the same also applies to other skills (if you are deploying second) depending on what skill they have might change what you want to throw them against... however I won't know this until I've deployed them already and that is why a lot of the time other choices are better because you know what they will do... I still think they are better than Dreads and Spawn however... oh and the other flaw if you can call it that is that they lack high S weapons for vehicle popping and you know how many people are in the current meta they like every squad to have at least 1 melta, plasma, fist so they can shoot that mechanical monster... I play eldar we have no choice :< although when we have meltas in a squad we have lots of meltas ^^

 

Well I did say I don't personally like them, for the reasons you stated first here (the high strength I don't care about as I think there could be other ways around that) but then that's because I don't like Chaos and their randomness, hence why I'm a loyalist player.

 

I've always consider Chaos players take the game too seriously and perhaps should embrace more of the randomness of their list, but then that is a contraversal subject! :lol:

[Piousservant]

I've always consider Chaos players take the game too seriously and perhaps should embrace more of the randomness of their list, but then that is a contraversal subject! ;)

 

Mebbe because chaos doesn't equal randomness...

 

And I do have a squad of possessed, admittedly built in the days of the 3.5 dex but they're still in use. Though I use them on occassion, I'm still not a big fan of the current rules.

[Legatus]

Mebbe because chaos doesn't equal randomness...

"chaos mutation" kind of does... as does "crazed psychopathic dreadnought".

[Chengar Qordath]

Mebbe because chaos doesn't equal randomness...

"chaos mutation" kind of does... as does "crazed psychopathic dreadnought".

Mutations are pretty random, but reflecting them with random rolls at the start of a battle is not a good way to represent that. Mutation is not the sort of thing that happens five minutes before the battle; most of the possessed would already have their random mutations well before they stepped onto the battlefield, and anyone planning the battle could take that into account.

 

When it comes to dealing with possessed, I rather prefer the way it is in 3.5, when you actually got to pick what mutations the unit had. It made the unit a lot more flexible, gave you more than six options for unit setup, and was just generally fun to mess with.

[Captain Idaho]

I always thought the clue was in the name... :mellow:

[A D-B]

Mebbe because chaos doesn't equal randomness...

"chaos mutation" kind of does... as does "crazed psychopathic dreadnought".

Mutations are pretty random, but reflecting them with random rolls at the start of a battle is not a good way to represent that. Mutation is not the sort of thing that happens five minutes before the battle; most of the possessed would already have their random mutations well before they stepped onto the battlefield, and anyone planning the battle could take that into account.

 

When it comes to dealing with possessed, I rather prefer the way it is in 3.5, when you actually got to pick what mutations the unit had. It made the unit a lot more flexible, gave you more than six options for unit setup, and was just generally fun to mess with.

 

I always thought the same, and I pretty much agree. But I came across a few references regarding Possessed where the daemon within them only truly manifests in battle, and that's when it warps the Astartes' flesh to suit its needs. Once the battle is done, the daemon recedes again until the next time it will rise to the surface and become the dominant consciousness. Suffice to say, I thought that was killer. Instead of a full merging, I like the idea of this uneasy, conflicted symbiosis. Two souls at war in the same body, sharing perception and instinct, with extreme periods where one slumbers and the other assumes control.

 

Now, while I think that's cool as hell, I still agree that the randomness we have right now isn't my preferred way of doing things (I don't see the harm in choosing mutations for a unit, like with options and wargear), I also don't necessarily think it's a great way to represent either interpretation of Possessed - whether they're warped all the time, or only when the daemon rises to dominance within them, it still strikes me as more fun and realistic to choose your unit options.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I came across a few references regarding Possessed where the daemon within them only truly manifests in battle, and that's when it warps the Astartes' flesh to suit its needs. Once the battle is done, the daemon recedes again until the next time it will rise to the surface and become the dominant consciousness. Suffice to say, I thought that was killer. Instead of a full merging, I like the idea of this uneasy, conflicted symbiosis. Two souls at war in the same body, sharing perception and instinct, with extreme periods where one slumbers and the other assumes control.

Where did you find this? Sounds like an interesting read.

[A D-B]

I came across a few references regarding Possessed where the daemon within them only truly manifests in battle, and that's when it warps the Astartes' flesh to suit its needs. Once the battle is done, the daemon recedes again until the next time it will rise to the surface and become the dominant consciousness. Suffice to say, I thought that was killer. Instead of a full merging, I like the idea of this uneasy, conflicted symbiosis. Two souls at war in the same body, sharing perception and instinct, with extreme periods where one slumbers and the other assumes control.

Where did you find this? Sounds like an interesting read.

 

It was mostly in chats with other BL/GW folks, and at one point there was a photocopy from one of the previous edition codices as reference on the table. I can't remember for the life of me which one it was, but it definitely wasn't the current one. As I recall, it was literally no more than a throwaway remark - I never got the idea that it applied as a blanket statement to all Possessed. (Well, like any of them could really be the same? Every soul and daemon will be different and have its own relationship, I guess... But whatever.)

 

As a useless aside, I know Lexicanum references it:

 

Many have allowed themselves to be possessed to show their devotion to their Chaos God or to gain the unearthly power that only daemonic possession can bring. The majority of the time, a possessed retains control over their actions, the daemon never permanently displacing the mortal mind of the Marine. It is only during times of bloodshed and battle that the daemon comes to dominate the pairing, assuming complete control over the shared body. The Chaos Marine, already a savage warrior, becomes an utterly relentless and bestial destroyer. His body no longer feels pain. The daemon given free reign, mutations twist the Marine's human form further into daemonic and inhuman shapes.

 

...but like anyone else, I wouldn't trust Lexicanum as a canon reference. I just noticed it's phrased similarly to the discussion we had. If I track it down I'll let you know, dude.